The Adria Richards Story

[Thinking Skins]

Ok, so I don't know how many of you know about this story, but I'm really interested in getting the different opinions on this topic.

Basically we have a tech conference going on and two guys are telling inappropriate jokes (from what I understand loudly). One lady (Adria Richards) who is seated in front of them hears the jokes and decides to do something about it. So she takes a picture of the two guys telling the jokes and sends the message across twitter.

The reaction?

- One of the two guys has been fired from his job with the company saying:

"PlayHaven had an employee who was identified as making inappropriate comments at PyCon, and as a company that is dedicated to gender equality and values honorable behavior, we conducted a thorough investigation. The result of this investigation led to the unfortunate outcome of having to let this employee go," PlayHaven CEO Andy Yang said in a blog posting.

- Adria has been fired from her job with the company saying:

"Her decision to tweet the comments and photographs of the people who made the comments crossed the line," Franklin wrote in a blog post on the site. "Publicly shaming the offenders - and bystanders - was not the appropriate way to handle the situation."

- And the other guy (from what I understand) was not and will not be fired from his job, with the company saying:

"We believe in the importance of discussing sensitive topics such as gender and conduct and we hope to move forward with a civil dialogue based on the facts," said Yang.

I found out about this story from two sources: one is a blog giving his opinion of the incident -

http://www.singleblackmale.org/2013/03/25/misogyny-in-the-workplace/

and another is a news story stating what has happened

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-205_162-57575905/techie-adria-richards-fired-after-tweeting-about-mens-comments/

I'm curious about this because having a PhD in a STEM field, I know how intolerable some people in these environments can be towards women. I also know however that Adria took a non-traditional means to report this incident. So I was really wondering what people thought about that.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Ultimately, I think she's right....it's sad that people can't act professionally at an event like this. But after skimming the link to her blog: http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont-belong-at-tech-conferences/ I'm feeling that she really wasn't necessarily bothered by these jokes (as someone pointed out, they were rather sophomoric and I personally thought they were eye-roll inducing...not "cringe worthy") and just wanted to make an example out of people due to the fact that women (as she's quick to point out) are a minority in the tech industry.

[Thinking Skins]

Ultimately, I think she's right....it's sad that people can't act professionally at an event like this. But after skimming the link to her blog: http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont-belong-at-tech-conferences/ I'm feeling that she really wasn't necessarily bothered by these jokes (as someone pointed out, they were rather sophomoric and I personally thought they were eye-roll inducing...not "cringe worthy") and just wanted to make an example out of people due to the fact that women (as she's quick to point out) are a minority in the tech industry.

Yeah, I agree. And I really LOVE that she tweeted the photo. I see that as a move of empowerment, although she was still terminated from her job, its a lot more of a level playing field by putting the photo out there in the internet vs going to a board room full of men asking them to understand sexism from a woman's point of view.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Yeah, I agree. And I really LOVE that she tweeted the photo. I see that as a move of empowerment, although she was still terminated from her job, its a lot more of a level playing field by putting the photo out there in the internet vs going to a board room full of men asking them to understand sexism from a woman's point of view.

I don't really love or hate that she tweeted the photo, I just don't really understand the thought process behind it. She gets to make an example out of these two guys...why? Does she feel that much better about herself that she did that?

I liked a lot of the points made on this blog that talks about sexism and misogyny:

http://www.singleblackmale.org/2013/03/25/misogyny-in-the-workplace/

When I look up the definition of misogyny, I see the hatred, strong dislike, denigration, and/or sexual objectification of women. I don’t see guys making sophomoric jokes that aren’t geared toward or at women. Remember, these guys were talking amongst themselves and irresponsibly loud about technological double entendres. Though you’re most likely not a geek, you’ve probably made or laughed at a double entendre at some point in your life. Jokes are usually harmless until someone tells you they’re not; at which point if you’re the jokester, you feel embarrassed, apologize, and keep it moving. This is where sexual harassment comes into play.

I’m also not saying that all guy talk is inherently misogynistic. Jokes aside, it sucks not being able to voice an opinion or make what may seem like a harmless comment without worry of being labeled a misogynist or sexual harasser, but you gotta play by the rules. That’s life. But let’s not assign meaning where there is none.

And that’s why this is so bothersome. I’m all about supporting open discussion on workplace inequality and communication between the sexes on hot topics. I’m all about standing against the onslaught that Adria faced once this story broke. I just can’t get behind the free-throwing of the terms misogyny and sexual harassment when it comes to the incident that started this all. And the fact I had to read the previous sentence three times to ensure it couldn’t be misinterpreted is a problem in itself. If you’re going to throw around those terms regardless of their real meaning, you’re no better than the people you’re accusing. Do your part, and I’ll do my best to do mine. Reach one. Teach one. Just don’t tweet about them first.

I agreed with these points, particularly in the last paragraph...there's serious misogyny and sexual harassment and then there's dumb jokes like these that weren't directed towards anybody in particular. Richards gets to play judge and juror here due to the fact that she was the one that was so "offended" but I think it's pretty obvious she has ulterior motives here and wants to point to an issue she feels passionate about which is the lack of women in the tech field.

As he points out, when you think about sexism and misogyny, you don't think about dumb jokes like these.

EDIT: Speaking of sophomoric, I think it's hysterical that one of the related threads found below is "Denise Richards' Funbags"

[Corcaigh]

Tell them to knock it off.

Notify the event organizers and the offenders' HR departments.

I think it's fair that she got fired for her overreach. She was representing her company too and her actions were excessive.

---------- Post added March-25th-2013 at 08:15 AM ----------

Yeah, I agree. And I really LOVE that she tweeted the photo. I see that as a move of empowerment, although she was still terminated from her job, its a lot more of a level playing field by putting the photo out there in the internet vs going to a board room full of men asking them to understand sexism from a woman's point of view.

Board room full of men? Any professional tech company with a HR department will be pretty clear on how this behavior is treated. She's not going to have to petition a boardroom full of lecherous old Neanderthal males to have her POV heard.

[LadySkinsFan]

HR departments are there to protect the company, not the employees.

My experience after hearing one man talk about his elderly father's sex life and his "Mr. Happy" numerous times plus making racist "jokey" remarks right in front of an HR person in a meeting with about 10 other people told me all I needed to know about that company: that they would not hear one word I said, as a woman and as a consultant. So I quit that assignment, told my agency why I was quitting the assignment.

Women and minorities are still treated as invisible in corporations especially in high tech companies. And yes, tokenism abounds. What's disgusting is seeing and hearing women laugh at outright sexism directed toward another woman, or seeing and hearing minorities laugh at outright racism directed toward other minorities, just to get along with white coworkers/superiors.

"Sophomoric" is only in the eye of the beholder.

[Spaceman Spiff]

HR departments are there to protect the company, not the employees.

My experience after hearing one man talk about his elderly father's sex life and his "Mr. Happy" numerous times plus making racist "jokey" remarks right in front of an HR person in a meeting with about 10 other people told me all I needed to know about that company: that they would not hear one word I said, as a woman and as a consultant. So I quit that assignment, told my agency why I was quitting the assignment.

Women and minorities are still treated as invisible in corporations especially in high tech companies. And yes, tokenism abounds. What's disgusting is seeing and hearing women laugh at outright sexism directed toward another woman, or seeing and hearing minorities laugh at outright racism directed toward other minorities, just to get along with white coworkers/superiors.

"Sophomoric" is only in the eye of the beholder.

So you think there's no difference between these dolts at the conference and someone talking about their dad's sex life?

[greenspandan]

the backlash against her has been insane, and all too common for women who speak out against misogyny: she has received an uncountable number of death threats, rape threats, and various combinations thereof. her online presences have been attacked and hacked, and extremely vitriolic and hateful stuff about her has been written in the comments section of every article that has covered this story.

[Corcaigh]

HR departments are there to protect the company, not the employees.

Women and minorities are still treated as invisible in corporations especially in high tech companies. And yes, tokenism abounds. What's disgusting is seeing and hearing women laugh at outright sexism directed toward another woman, or seeing and hearing minorities laugh at outright racism directed toward other minorities, just to get along with white coworkers/superiors.

"Sophomoric" is only in the eye of the beholder.

Reprimanding and firing employees who behave inappropriately IS protecting the company.

Yes, if the company doesn't take this kind of issue seriously, then escalate it to social media, legal action if appropriate, and quit if it's your own employer.

But it's grossly innaccurate to characterize all businesses based on your personal experiences. Many tech companies are women and minority owned. And many who are not, run very professional work environments.

---------- Post added March-25th-2013 at 09:03 AM ----------

the backlash against her has been insane, and all too common for women who speak out against misogyny: she has received an uncountable number of death threats, rape threats, and various combinations thereof. her online presences have been attacked and hacked, and extremely vitriolic and hateful stuff about her has been written in the comments section of every article that has covered this story.

Of course. The internet is the place where *******s, misogynists, sexists and racists gather to find their peers.

[Thinking Skins]

Reprimanding and firing employees who behave inappropriately IS protecting the company.

Yes, if the company doesn't take this kind of issue seriously, then escalate it to social media, and quit if it's your own employer.

But it's grossly innaccurate to characterize all businesses based on your personal experiences. Many tech companies are women and minority owned. And many who are not, run very professional work environments.

I don't know how you define "many", but this is a real problem with the tech industry. The fact that we have so few women and minorities in the industry is a problem and as long as we continue to ignore it or act like it doesn't exist or use arguments like "they're not smart enough" as the reasons that they choose to leave our fields (ignoring our own contributions). The ones who are run by very professional work environment are debatable depending on what you use to define professional. I can give examples and I'm sure others can give examples of non-professional work environments that are allowed to stand because the people in charge are the ones making the jokes.

At a smaller level, sure I can just leave the company, but at a larger level what's happening is that people are leaving the industry. And its sad.

[alexey]

While I have a lot of sympathy for the cause she is attempting to advance, Adria Richards picked a highly flawed and possibly illegal way of doing it.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2013/03/22/was-it-appropriate-for-adria-richards-to-tweet-a-photo-of-two-men-at-pycon-and-accuse-them-of-being-sexist/

...

In general, we are not entitled to ambush an ordinary person on private property, photograph them up close without their consent, broadcast those photos to thousands of members of the general public while claiming on a pure hearsay basis that the people pictured are guilty of misconduct.

..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_light

False light is a legal term that refers to a tort concerning privacy that is similar to the tort of defamation. The privacy laws in the United States include a non-public person's right to privacy from publicity which puts them in a false light to the public; which is balanced against the First Amendment right of free speech.

...

[Corcaigh]

I don't know how you define "many", but this is a real problem with the tech industry. The fact that we have so few women and minorities in the industry is a problem and as long as we continue to ignore it or act like it doesn't exist or use arguments like "they're not smart enough" as the reasons that they choose to leave our fields (ignoring our own contributions). The ones who are run by very professional work environment are debatable depending on what you use to define professional. I can give examples and I'm sure others can give examples of non-professional work environments that are allowed to stand because the people in charge are the ones making the jokes.

At a smaller level, sure I can just leave the company, but at a larger level what's happening is that people are leaving the industry. And its sad.

Seriously, who is making the argument in the 21st century that women are not smart enough?

There are a whole series of factors at play here. Lumping them all together doesn't make sense.

Women are still underrepresented in senior technology leadership positions in part because in the 70s and 80s when many of those would have been in school women were often absolutely discouraged from taking STEM subjects. At the time I studied electrical engineering, I had classes with women who had to take private tutoring in their high school because their all-girls school did not offer the advanced math classes they needed. But the times are a changing. My daughter has just accepted a tech position making significantly more than double her peers who did not pursue STEM degrees.

Promoting STEM during K-12 to get higher participation is a priority for everyone because the subjects aren't popular - due to a mix of the teaching not always being great, in some respects they are more difficult, and teen peer pressure against smart people all being factors. Very likely much worse among teenage girls.

And women are often underrepresented in start-up tech leadership positions because the VCs are often an 'old-boy' industry network.

There are many problems to be addressed. But all this does not mean that high tech companies are particularly hostile work environments for women and minorities. Outside of higher education and non-profits, they are probably one of the most liberal industries.

Have you been to many manufacturing & service companies? FFS until recently there were whole industries where their primary marketing campaign was their branded calendar of soft porn image of models with their products. Nowadays the pornography has moved from the shop floor to the men's restroom. Such is progress in those sectors.

Maybe folks in the DC Metro area are biased to what a tech company looks and behaves like because they think of government contractors, often owned by older white males who are ex military, as representative of the tech industry.

Granted, I may be biased as the last three tech companies I worked for had a female CEO, but few minorities? In the tech industry? Seriously? I would have thought there was more need to get white people of either gender developing in Java, 'cause it looks like there are so many Asians in the field they must have a genetic advantage. Or do you mean few African Americans? No doubt, African Americans in tech leadership roles are very rare.

[Bang]

I'd like to be sure that the companies who fired people made damn sure that what was tweeted and said was absolute fact.

Social media is such that a herd mentality can form quickly, and once stampedes begin they're tough to stop.

People running around screaming witch... we've seen that before. Public shaming sounds great, until you consider the public loves nothing better than to fling rotten vegetables at anyone who's fallen, regardless of facts or severity of the supposed offense.

turning people's lives loose to be torn apart can have long reaching effects.

~Bang

[Destino]

This is no way for professional adults to behave, which is to say it is exactly what I would expect at a conference. While working with industry nonprofits I helped put on and attended some great conferences, and was always floored by just how impressively bad the professionals attending would behave. This situation is not surprising.

The two idiots making geeky sexual innuendo should know how to behave in public. Adria showed poor judgement in how she chose to respond to what she deemed was an inappropriate comment. Attempting to publicly shame people for overheard comments found disagreeable or offensive is not acceptable behavior. Being offended does not make a person right nor does it grant them the right to create an even bigger problem for all involved. Had she simply notified event staff or turned around and strongly insisted that they modify their behavior I'd have no issue with this, though I'd still think the comments fall far short of misogyny and harassment. By making things public she created a situation for her employer and the employers of two forking dongles she photographed.

[GoSkins0721]

Seriously, who is making the argument in the 21st century that women are not smart enough?

There are a whole series of factors at play here. Lumping them all together doesn't make sense.

Women are still underrepresented in senior technology leadership positions in part because in the 70s and 80s when many of those would have been in school women were often absolutely discouraged from taking STEM subjects. At the time I studied electrical engineering, I had classes with women who had to take private tutoring in their high school because their all-girls school did not offer the advanced math classes they needed. But the times are a changing. My daughter has just accepted a tech position making significantly more than double her peers who did not pursue STEM degrees.

Promoting STEM during K-12 to get higher participation is a priority for everyone because the subjects aren't popular - due to a mix of the teaching not always being great, in some respects they are more difficult, and teen peer pressure against smart people all being factors. Very likely much worse among teenage girls.

And women are often underrepresented in start-up tech leadership positions because the VCs are often an 'old-boy' industry network.

There are many problems to be addressed. But all this does not mean that high tech companies are particularly hostile work environments for women and minorities. Outside of higher education and non-profits, they are probably one of the most liberal industries.

Have you been to many manufacturing & service companies? FFS until recently there were whole industries where their primary marketing campaign was their branded calendar of soft porn image of models with their products. Nowadays the pornography has moved from the shop floor to the men's restroom. Such is progress in those sectors.

Maybe folks in the DC Metro area are biased to what a tech company looks and behaves like because they think of government contractors, often owned by older white males who are ex military, as representative of the tech industry.

Granted, I may be biased as the last three tech companies I worked for had a female CEO, but few minorities? In the tech industry? Seriously? I would have thought there was more need to get white people of either gender developing in Java, 'cause it looks like there are so many Asians in the field they must have a genetic advantage. Or do you mean few African Americans? No doubt, African Americans in tech leadership roles are very rare.

Spot on and my observations as well.

The tech end-of-the-world fiasco with Y2K almost doubled the number of H-1B visas between 1998 and 2000 (65k to 115k). Then the number tripled in 2001 from the 1998 number 65k to 195k). Why was this necessary? Shortage of male and female US tech workers.

[Riggo-toni]

She was wrong. Sorry, but that's the way I see it.

Yeah,making a joke about a guy having a big dongle was inappropriate and unprofessional, but the other comment she reported "forking his repro" was not a sexual innuendo - it's tech speak for cloning a piece of code - but she reported it that way. They weren't talking to her, they were yakking amongst themselves and she overheard it.

I'm not saying us guys aren't pigs or that there aren't genuine cases of creating hostile environments, but she just seems to be somebody with an axe to grind.

[Thinking Skins]

Seriously, who is making the argument in the 21st century that women are not smart enough?

Based on this, I can see that you and I have a very different opinion on the needs for diversity in the workplace. Look at the article from HuffingtonPost: Women's STEM Careers A Matter Of Choice, Not Ability, Study Suggests. The fact that they're still doing THESE types of studies should tell you something about the prevalence there.

Maybe its different for me because I've spent most of my life in academia and not at actual firms. But I can talk about the environment in academia and how women are treated in the labs and in the study groups. The jokes that go on and the blatant sexual harassment. Only difference is that women who complain often are talking to deaf ears. I've seen some of my closest friends leave departments because a guy tired to get with her and when she turned him down he made sure that nobody would study with her. Maybe we're just in two different worlds, but I can only talk about the world I've seen and its definitely one where people make assumptions about Women and minorities in STEM fields.

[PleaseBlitz]

Tell them to knock it off.

Im with this. I never respect the passive-aggressive approach.

[LadySkinsFan]

The need for feminism will never go away until there is true equality everywhere. It's not happened yet, and will probably not happen in my lifetime.

The fact is that sexual harassment is alive and well in almost every workplace. Women are taught to STFU and not make waves, period. Doing so keeps us from realizing our potential as full human beings, instead of the wives and mothers we are raised to be from the time it's announced "It's a girl" and that's a fact.

[Thinking Skins]

Why do we live in a blame the victim society? People who are saying it's OK if she would have just gone to the authorities, or asked them to be nice, then what? Is she supposed to sit around wondering if things will really change? Is she supposed to be an adult and just live with it because that's what she should expect in a room dominated by men? I mean? I really don't get the partial blame on her. I mean, if anything, I wish she had done more. I kinda wish she'd have recorded the actual incident so there was no denying what happened.

What if she had been raped and tweeted a pic of her rapist. Now rape is illegal, so its certainly against the code of conduct of the conference. Would we still be saying "well she deserves to be fired because she violated the code of conduct"? I hope not. Thank God she wasn't raped, but this is not a nice precedent.

The way I see it, comments saying that the way a victim reports being a victim only leads to victims not wanting to report on being a victim. So if you think she handled this situation inappropriately, then what's next. Are you really thinking about correcting the problem?

[Corcaigh]

Based on this, I can see that you and I have a very different opinion on the needs for diversity in the workplace.

What? A highly diverse workplace is a great thing. Where am I claiming that diversity is not desirable?

Look at the article from HuffingtonPost: Women's STEM Careers A Matter Of Choice, Not Ability, Study Suggests. The fact that they're still doing THESE types of studies should tell you something about the prevalence there.

You quote an academic study that it's not lack of ability that is a reason for lower numbers of females in STEM careers. This has nothing to do with the tech industry being a hostile workplace.

Maybe the researchers are sexist pigs who think that the question of whether women can do math merits serious study, but they work in academia, not high tech.

[pjfootballer]

This should go into Burgolds "office BS and kindergarten" thread.

[Corcaigh]

Why do we live in a blame the victim society?

First your straw man about not valuing diversity and now this? No-one here is "blaming the victim". We are critical of her approach to addressing the problem.

As noted, a professional approach would have been to document and report the incident to the conference organizers and the employers of the two clowns. If their response was inadequate then legal action if merited, or publicity could have been the next step.

---------- Post added March-25th-2013 at 12:16 PM ----------

The fact is that sexual harassment is alive and well in almost every workplace. Women are taught to STFU and not make waves, period. Doing so keeps us from realizing our potential as full human beings, instead of the wives and mothers we are raised to be from the time it's announced "It's a girl" and that's a fact.

If that is really how you see the world, you need to associate with a better class of people. Seriously.

---------- Post added March-25th-2013 at 12:28 PM ----------

And for what it's worth, this is a topic I'm involved with ... I'm active in STEM education in K-12 as a sponsor and judge of local science fairs. And here's an anecdote for you, 3 of the top 5 prizes at our local science and engineering fair were won by females. You can post crass generalizations about issues on the Internet, or choose to do something about making it better.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Without touching on who is right and who is wrong, I think the big issue here is how few people seem to truly understand the power of social media. We are all basically carrying a nuclear bomb aimed at our professional and personal lives on our phones.

[Xameil]

The need for feminism will never go away until there is true equality everywhere. It's not happened yet, and will probably not happen in my lifetime.

The fact is that sexual harassment is alive and well in almost every workplace. Women are taught to STFU and not make waves, period. Doing so keeps us from realizing our potential as full human beings, instead of the wives and mothers we are raised to be from the time it's announced "It's a girl" and that's a fact.

True equalty will never exist ever....because there is always someone who has more power then the other, and it extends beyond race, and beyond sex. It crosses over the classes and financial lines as well. All racesand sexes partake equally in that discrimination.

As far as I can tell, women are not told to STFU at least not I can tell from my generation on. So I think your views may be a tad biased base on what you have experienced...or may be its from your area (another aspect that is discriminated against).

I think alot of what people see is the "grass is greener" scenario.

And as for the topic at hand....she should have been fired not because shes a female in a male dominated field, but because who made her judge, jury and executioner, also, in kindergarten we were always taught don't tattle....the world hates a rat