***2012-13 NBA THREAD!!! New Season/New Thread - LET'S GO!!!!!***

[ixcuincle]

<nstinson[OU]1> Adrian WojnarowskiOklahoma City has traded James Harden to the Houston Rockets, league sources tell Y! Sports

<donvito7335|LSU> i love those turn of the century presidents in the 19th and 20th century

<gregorah[tOSU]> cfbbot: pitbull

<ixcuincle[VT]> WHAT

<cfbbot> 07,010 Oregon St.1,00 - 00,06 Washington 3 0,011st 3:14

<ixcuincle[VT]> YOU SERIOUS

<ixcuincle[VT]> WHY WOULD THEY TRADE HARDEN

Just popped up out of nowhere so unsure of veracity but if true wow

---------- Post added October-27th-2012 at 10:48 PM ----------

Alright, I spoke to other people and they told me that it's Lamb and Kevin Martin going to OKC for James Harden

I thought Harden was pretty good until the NBA Finals so I was a bit surprised that OKC would deal him but I guess this is a good move? Martin is solid

[DCranon21]

The Thunder just handed the Lakers the West with that trade.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

the Thunders take a step back for this season, but they gonna get some lotto picks thanks to the Rockets thirst for any type of name player.

I think Harden will get exposed this season too, altho he may still get the max.

I like Jeremy Lamb A LOT, and in a year or two he will probably start for OKC imo. I said it before, but I wish the Wizards could have gotten him over Beal.

I had the Lakers as title favorites before, but this trade makes it easier for them this year. They may even end up with best record in the league.

[Kosher Ham]

OKC trade, sign, or lose...

Trade him. Not worth crazy money, not worth losing for nothing...trade was the only option.

I am guessing his agent thought they had leverage. Fire the agent. I could be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.

Lakers need Gasol to play defense. That's it. He play defense on a night to night basis and the Lakers will have the best record. I am hoping that Howard will help him with that part of his game, and hoping that Gasol will help Howard with his post offense.

[Hersh]

The Thunder just handed the Lakers the West with that trade.

Why? The Thunder beat the Lakers last year because of their two superstars Durant and Westbrook. The Thunder still get a 6th man that can light it up coming off the bench, plus a lottery pick from the last draft and multiple first round picks. That's how a franchise stays in contention to win a championship every year. Keep the main two and be flexible everywhere else.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Why? The Thunder beat the Lakers last year because of their two superstars Durant and Westbrook. The Thunder still get a 6th man that can light it up coming off the bench, plus a lottery pick from the last draft and multiple first round picks. That's how a franchise stays in contention to win a championship every year. Keep the main two and be flexible everywhere else.

Harden was their facilitator too. Martin is a gunner, altho he can shoot. This trade weakens them a lot, for this season.

in a season or two, they are going to be the most talented team in the NBA.

---------- Post added October-27th-2012 at 11:54 PM ----------

wait, OKC got Toronto and Dallas' first rounders pick. WHAT IN THE WORLD!

Those are two lotto picks. If OKC some how ends up with the #1 pick...

[ddub52]

Why? The Thunder beat the Lakers last year because of their two superstars Durant and Westbrook. The Thunder still get a 6th man that can light it up coming off the bench, plus a lottery pick from the last draft and multiple first round picks. That's how a franchise stays in contention to win a championship every year. Keep the main two and be flexible everywhere else.

I agree with this. Besides, Harden was a non-factor in the Finals last year.

[Hersh]

Harden was their facilitator too. Martin is a gunner, altho he can shoot. This trade weakens them a lot, for this season.

in a season or two, they are going to be the most talented team in the NBA.

---------- Post added October-27th-2012 at 11:54 PM ----------

wait, OKC got Toronto and Dallas' first rounders pick. WHAT IN THE WORLD!

Those are two lotto picks. If OKC some how ends up with the #1 pick...

Are they lottery protected picks?

I don't think OKC is weaker. Eric Maynor is back and healthy to run the second unit with Martin, Jeremy Lamb, Perry Jones III. That's athletic as can be.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Are they lottery protected picks?

I don't think OKC is weaker. Eric Maynor is back and healthy to run the second unit with Martin, Jeremy Lamb, Perry Jones III. That's athletic as can be.

Eric Maynor aint that good. He only got hyped because he isnt Russy, imo. It was him who fell apart at the end of that game 5 in 2011 against Dallas. Thats forgotten. And its an ACL return, which usually takes a year to be right mentally.

They do have a lot of scoring off the 2nd unit now, which is good for them and Jones and Lamb could be starters in the future. But those two are rookies, so they will be inconsistent. I think they got worse off this trade, especially with the Lakers improving with Dwight and Nash, and having scorers off their bench.

I think Dallas' pick is lotto protected, Toronto's pick is not, iirc.

edit: Toronto's pick is protected

"Toronto's own 2013 1st round pick to Houston (Top-3 Protected and 15-30 Protected in the 2013 Draft, top-2 protected and 15-30 protected in 2014, top-2 protected and 15-30 protected in 2015, top-1 Protected and 15-30 protected in 2016, top-1 protected and 15-30 Protected in 2017 and unprotected in the 2018 Draft."

[lovetoaster]

wait, OKC got Toronto and Dallas' first rounders pick. WHAT IN THE WORLD!

Those are two lotto picks. If OKC some how ends up with the #1 pick...

Both of them have various protections in place for a few years. For example, the Dallas one is top-20 protected until 2017. The Raptors one is top-3 protected next year. So the picks might not be as good as they could be this year, but it is still a great trade for the Thunder. I am a huge Harden fan, and I hate that he went to Houson, because I think they will be a mess soon.

[Hersh]

Eric Maynor aint that good. He only got hyped because he isnt Russy, imo. It was him who fell apart at the end of that game 5 in 2011 against Dallas. Thats forgotten. And its an ACL return, which usually takes a year to be right mentally.

They do have a lot of scoring off the 2nd unit now, which is good for them and Jones and Lamb could be starters in the future. But those two are rookies, so they will be inconsistent. I think they got worse off this trade, especially with the Lakers improving with Dwight and Nash, and having scorers off their bench.

If Maynor doesn't work out, they certainly have the assets to add a piece before the trade deadline. I love watching a team like OKC operate. Knowing when to make a move to maximize value and not hold on too long. Granted, they've made a couple of mistakes, but again, these assets allow them to get out of contracts if they want.

[nuposse87]

Eric Maynor aint that good. He only got hyped because he isnt Russy, imo. It was him who fell apart at the end of that game 5 in 2011 against Dallas. Thats forgotten. And its an ACL return, which usually takes a year to be right mentally.

They do have a lot of scoring off the 2nd unit now, which is good for them and Jones and Lamb could be starters in the future. But those two are rookies, so they will be inconsistent. I think they got worse off this trade, especially with the Lakers improving with Dwight and Nash, and having scorers off their bench.

I think Dallas' pick is lotto protected, Toronto's pick is not, iirc.

edit: Toronto's pick is protected

"Toronto's own 2013 1st round pick to Houston (Top-3 Protected and 15-30 Protected in the 2013 Draft, top-2 protected and 15-30 protected in 2014, top-2 protected and 15-30 protected in 2015, top-1 Protected and 15-30 protected in 2016, top-1 protected and 15-30 Protected in 2017 and unprotected in the 2018 Draft."

a backup PG that averages 7 assists per 36 isn't that good? He is no world beater but he is capable of leading that 2nd unit pretty efficiently. Harden was shooting like 44% in the playoffs...that kind of production is replaceable.

He also played with 2 of the top 15 players in the game. Martin and Lamb won't be the beneficiary of that? C'mon. I think it is a lateral move offensively, considering the depth and production of the incoming players. Also the trading aspects they gain with Martin as an expiring could be huge.

They could Amnesty Perkins and let Martin Expire...and have max money to sign a big name FA. Howard would be wise to take notice if the Lakers experiment fails.

Westbrook

Lamb

Durant

Ibaka

Howard

That wingspan...mother of god....

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

If Maynor doesn't work out, they certainly have the assets to add a piece before the trade deadline. I love watching a team like OKC operate. Knowing when to make a move to maximize value and not hold on too long. Granted, they've made a couple of mistakes, but again, these assets allow them to get out of contracts if they want.

that is a good point.

I still think they messed up a title run for this season but it sets them up in the long term.

Daryl Morey is Ernie Grunfeld status for me now. He had all those stat nerds hyping him up because he read the same stats that they do. Now he is falling on his face.

[Going Commando]

wait, OKC got Toronto and Dallas' first rounders pick. WHAT IN THE WORLD!

Those are two lotto picks. If OKC some how ends up with the #1 pick...

Dallas isn't going to miss the playoffs. Toronto probably won't either. The Bucks and Wizards are the only teams that Toronto is competing for the playoffs with, they're better than both.

[Going Commando]

Both of them have various protections in place for a few years. For example, the Dallas one is top-20 protected until 2017. The Raptors one is top-3 protected next year. So the picks might not be as good as they could be this year, but it is still a great trade for the Thunder. I am a huge Harden fan, and I hate that he went to Houson, because I think they will be a mess soon.

If all of that's true, those picks are essentially worthless window dressing. They traded Harden for Jeremy Lamb, Kevin Martin's contract, and dumping a bunch of scrubs from the roster.

I think some will try and spin this as OKC doing business "their way" or making the best of a bad situation. I think that's pretty silly. That bad situation was self inflicted. First off, the deal breaker was 4.5 million over 4 years? Are you kidding me? Small Market my ass. There is no such thing as a small market constraint when you've got three Olympians on your team, including the second biggest star in the NBA. That is the biggest load of horse crap that they couldn't have afforded to max him out if they'd thought he was worth it to them.

Clearly they didn't think so.

But the real issue to me is that they created a salary crunch for themselves by wasting money on a bunch of mediocre front court players like Nick Collison, Kendrick Perkins, and Serge Ibaka. Are you kidding me that they chose Serge Ibaka over Harden? Harden was an All Star and a member of their big three. He fit perfectly for them, and they are not going to find another player like him because the dude was an oddball that worked out perfect for their team construction.

From a basketball standpoint, they get worse immediately. They traded their third best player, one of the most unselfish and efficient offensive wings in the league for 30 cents on the dollar and got back two selfish gunners, one most likely gone at the end of the year. Lamb is a soft jump shooter that doesn't facilitate on a team that's already soft and a little too reliant on jump shooting.

I actually like KMart more than most, but he's ball dominant and needs a ton of shots to do his thing. He can't play defense and he doesn't do anything but score really. I don't see him being a factor in OKC.

I don't understand their approach here. Your backcourt and wings were perfect. You had the perfect dynamic here OKC. This was a group that could have grown up together and once they learned to play defense, they could have been overwhelming. Newsflash, it's your front court that sucks and needed to be upgraded. They've got 23.5 million tied up for the next three years in Ibaka, Collison, and Perkins despite the fact all of those guys were a liability when on the floor against the Heat.

---------- Post added October-28th-2012 at 04:27 AM ----------

I like Jeremy Lamb A LOT, and in a year or two he will probably start for OKC imo. I said it before, but I wish the Wizards could have gotten him over Beal.

Beal is a lot better than Lamb. OKC themselves would rather have had Beal than Lamb. They tried to trade Harden at draft time to move up and get Beal and would have taken him second overall and they couldn't do it. Lamb is OKC settling big time. They could have gotten virtually the same player by signing Nick Young.

I'm curious to see if they can make anything out of Lamb and PJIII. My guess is they'll turn Lamb into a solid bench scorer that's always going to be one dimensional and a defensive liability except for his one good defensive attribute of getting into pass lanes on the perimeter. My other guess is PJIII will be out of the league in a couple of years.

I think they get worse from this deal but they get some flexibility to salvage themselves with money for the front court. People will second guess this move forever unless Serge Ibaka makes a big time leap soon. Right now he's nothing but a lane trolling help defender and weakside blocker and dunker with a moderate jumper. He's not a great rebounder. He's not a good post up defender. He's a liability in space and leaves your small ball lineup weak on the boards. And he has no go to offense. And Westbrook is not a great facilitating PG. He needs to get a lot better to become a legit member of a big three and not some jumped up Deandre Jordan/JaVale McGee. Could happen, it's only his fourth year. But he needs to show big strides within these next three seasons. Meanwhile, the Thunder made it much harder for themselves to compete for titles in that span. I guess they're hoping to spend the money they are saving on Harden on a better player than him.

[Going Commando]

Whatever. I think we're going to get that Lakers--Heat finals and it's going to be pretty epic. As an NBA fan, I'm excited by this, particularly since the Wizards probably won't be playing in May.

It would settle some all time legacies to be settled. We'll be cheated a bit if this doesn't happen.

LeBron has a chance to squash Kobe's legacy completely as well as potentially break up this new unholy alliance in LA, and cement his status as one of the five greatest players in NBA history for all of time. Especially if he wins a fourth MVP (likely). Four MVPs in five years, back to back titles and finals MVPs while facing a much, much better opponent than Jordan ever played against in a finals. He'd be halfway to Jordanville in one fell swoop.

Or Kobe can get his sixth ring and completely put a damper on the momentum of the Pax LeBronica.

Dwyane Wade could match up on Kobe and give us one of the most fascinating matchups in Finals history. If he outplayed Kobe and Miami won, that's it for Kobe. He will never be put on a level with Jordan (not that he would deserve to be even if he did), and he will never live down getting beaten by Wade.

Nash can probably cement himself as a top five PG all time with one last great year and a title against LeBron. If he loses, well, probably nothing happens to him. People understand his place in league history.

Dwight can redeem himself and kick off a new Lakers dynasty built around himself. He's probably the only guy in the league capable of stealing "NBA's most dominating player" away from LeBron. And TBH, for the Lakers to win, it's going to take him going into beast mode, winning finals MVP, and somehow figuring out how to neutralize the Heat's small ball. If he loses, he will receive all of the blame. Hell, he might bolt for a different team in the offseason, get more hate for doing so, and break up this new Laker's era before it really even got underway.

He could sink the Lakers if that happened. Do people realize they've got all their eggs in his basket? Pau is as good as gone as soon as is expedient. Kobe said he's retiring when his contract is up, and he'd be too old to carry a contender even if he didn't. Nash will probably retire when his two years are up, as old as he is. Dwight could ruin that organization by leaving this summer.

Needless to say, I'm rooting for another LeBron championship this season.

ALTHOUGH, I think the Celts are sneaky good and one Rondo leap away from being a true contender again. KG and Pierce are still good and they've got a better mix of guys filling out the roster than last year. They are the only team in the East that can beat the Heat. The Nets and Knicks are pretenders and the Bulls can't do it without Rose at his best.

The Clippers are pretty loaded too. If Blake Griffin makes a leap, they're absolutely contenders having two top ten players.

And you can still say the same for the Thunder too, although they turned themselves into dark horses this year.

[Mr. Sinister]

I don't believe Blake will make that leap, not this year. I think this year it's the Lakers and Spurs, and everyone else (in the West). It'll be intteresting to see how the Mavs play this year. While I don't think they could beat those two teams in a seven game series, I think they have some really nice pieces.

[Going Commando]

Pau Gasol will probably be stealing a title with Dirk Nowitzki in Dallas in a year or two

Cuban collects everyone else's unwanted toys and turns them into a team that is never supposed to win but just keeps doing it. They are the San Francisco Giants or St. Louis Cardinals of the NBA.

---------- Post added October-28th-2012 at 05:17 AM ----------

I don't believe Blake will make that leap, not this year. I think this year it's the Lakers and Spurs, and everyone else (in the West). It'll be intteresting to see how the Mavs play this year. While I don't think they could beat those two teams in a seven game series, I think they have some really nice pieces.

I think the Spurs finally peaked. They're not going to seriously contend for another title again because they don't have enough around Tony Parker to do so. They can't match up with the Thunder, much less the Lakers or the Heat.

It's sad, but two years ago was the beginning of the end for Duncan. He may draw it out a while, but he will never average 30 MPG again. Manu's old too. They're good when they're on the court but the Spurs just don't get enough minutes from them any more. I hope Duncan retires before he becomes a role player off the bench.

The Mavs have a better team than last year's, maybe better than the title team. Brand and Kaman are underrated. Collison probably is too. But for them to have any chance of actually making noise, Dirk needs to get back to his old self and his knee needs to hang in there.

---------- Post added October-28th-2012 at 06:11 AM ----------

LeBron's led the league in PER the last five years and win shares the last four. Objectively speaking, he should have won the last four MVPs and finished second to CP3 in 2007-2008. But people were pissed at him for the decision and used the excuse of a normal dip in his (still superior) numbers and a feel good story in Chicago to give the MVP to Rose. The claim was "it's not about the numbers" and "he means more to his team than LeBron" despite the fact LeBron was still clearly the best player in the NBA and had the best individual season + he led a better team than Rose, proven in the playoffs.

Nobody has ever won four in a row. Russell won four in five years and five in eight years. Kareem won six in ten years, his first five coming in seven years.

LeBron should be able to beat them to five. Excluding the fact he should rightfully already have four, and was only a whisker from one in 2007-2008. Crazy.

Jordan, like always, sets the bench mark though. From the time he was 23, until his first retirement, he led the league in PER and win shares. That's seven years in a row, something which has never been matched. Four consecutive years of that he had a PER over 31 and over 19 WS. That's utterly insane.

That means for seven consecutive years, Jordan was the best player in the league and had the best individual season each time. The man should have won seven MVPs in a row by the time he was 29. Then of course he retired. Two years after he's back, leads the league in WS two more times, finishes second in PER one of those years and loses the MVP to Karl Malone, ties for first in PER the year before with David Robinson and wins the MVP. Its OK though, he gets Malone back in 97-98, winning the MVP despite the fact Malone beat him in both PER and WS that season.

Jordan effectively lost three of the best years of his career: his 22 year old season (he had a PER of 27.5 before he got hurt... as a sophomore), and his 30 and 31 year old seasons. And yet the guy still deserved to win 9 MVPs.

LeBron is matching his pace right now. But he got to the league two years younger than Jordan and hasn't missed the kind of time Jordan had. Gonna be interesting to see if LeBron keeps going and matches Jordan's level of individual dominance. One thing's clear, LeBron already has a case for top four status based on individual play because only Jordan, Wilt, and Kareem beat his individual accomplishments, and every year LeBron is going to creep towards Jordan.

[DCranon21]

Why? The Thunder beat the Lakers last year because of their two superstars Durant and Westbrook. The Thunder still get a 6th man that can light it up coming off the bench, plus a lottery pick from the last draft and multiple first round picks. That's how a franchise stays in contention to win a championship every year. Keep the main two and be flexible everywhere else.

Yes granted the KD and Westbrook are the superstars for the Thunder, the Lakers had trouble with Harden in the 2nd rd. He did his best David Copperfield act in the Finals, but the dude was a thorn on the Lakers side. Right now it cripples the Thunder for the season, but I didn't know they received picks until I seen what you guys typed earlier. Since they are protected, we have to see where Toronto and Dallas will finish.

[ixcuincle]

Until the Lakers beat the Thunder in the playoffs the Thunder are a better team

The Lakers are old

Listen I don't want to say that because I am a Lakers homer but they're old and who knows how Dwight Howard is going to end up, what if he plays like Orlando Dwight Howard and disappears in the playoffs

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Until the Lakers beat the Thunder in the playoffs the Thunder are a better team

The Lakers are old

Listen I don't want to say that because I am a Lakers homer but they're old and who knows how Dwight Howard is going to end up, what if he plays like Orlando Dwight Howard and disappears in the playoffs

when did that happen?

[ixcuincle]

when did that happen?

A few years ago

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

A few years ago

hmmm

[ixcuincle]

DC represent

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

so Eddy Curry is starting at center for the Mavericks tomorrow.