***2012-13 NBA THREAD!!! New Season/New Thread - LET'S GO!!!!!***

[Going Commando]

I always thought being a good passer meant, passing the ball to the right person at the right time, in the smallest window as possible. That is why I always liked Mark Jackson when he was playing (Mainly his second stints with Indy and New York). Back then my coach was like, people can be flashy all they want, if the pass leads to two points then it was the best pass. Mark Jackson always seemed to make the best pass to me.

That's what I was getting at. The definition of good passing means you're facilitating your teammates generally, because you're setting them up for good shots.

Nice graphic btw. I laughed.

---------- Post added October-2nd-2012 at 06:09 PM ----------

Facilitating the offense and passing ARE two separate things. Part of what makes a good PG is how they RUN a team. Getting your guys in the best position to succeed even when the ball is not in your hands.

If you can facilitate the offense effectively AND be a good passer, you've got the recipe for success as a PG in the NBA.

You're talking about ability in running sets and plays from point, and yes, that is different from passing, which is more narrow.

That's not what I'm talking about when I'm talking about facilitating teammates through great passing.

I'm talking about getting away from a scripted play and reading the floor, deciding where the ball should go by anticipating who will get the best shots, and then getting the ball there in the best way to make it happen. you're making the decision yourself outside the context of a fixed shot at the end of a play. That reading and decision making is the essence of good passing and you can't separate it from the process.

Even when you're running plays from point, unless you're running an isolation, you're often going to have to make a decision on where the ball should go for a shooter and pull the trigger on it. Or you're playing in transition and you don't have time to set up and you're just improvising. Vision, decision, then pass. That's the process, and nobody was better at it than Magic IMO, and LeBron isn't Magic's chief rival. LeBron isn't even the best passer in the NBA today, much less better than the GOAT. LeBron makes flashy looking passes in transition and dumps off to open men on the corners on his drives. He's great at that stuff and has a great feel for the ball. He's not as good a passer as Magic was though.

Magic ran an uptempo transition heavy offense, he wasn't always playing point from traditional sets and just racking up assists on pick and rolls. He was improvising and reading the floor and making his own decisions. It means a ton that he averaged about 5 more assists per game than LeBron did when comparing their passing ability.

[ixcuincle]

NBA 2k13 is out today! Can't wait to play!

[ixcuincle]

I like the Social Media aspect of MyPlayer. I keep getting tweets about how bad I'm playing. :cry:

"Maybe if you made more shots we'd win the game!"

And then Eric Bledsoe "Sorry we had to drop the L on you."

[RonArtest15]

That's what I was getting at. The definition of good passing means you're facilitating your teammates generally, because you're setting them up for good shots.

Nice graphic btw. I laughed.

---------- Post added October-2nd-2012 at 06:09 PM ----------

You're talking about ability in running sets and plays from point, and yes, that is different from passing, which is more narrow.

That's not what I'm talking about when I'm talking about facilitating teammates through great passing.

I'm talking about getting away from a scripted play and reading the floor, deciding where the ball should go by anticipating who will get the best shots, and then getting the ball there in the best way to make it happen. you're making the decision yourself outside the context of a fixed shot at the end of a play. That reading and decision making is the essence of good passing and you can't separate it from the process.

Even when you're running plays from point, unless you're running an isolation, you're often going to have to make a decision on where the ball should go for a shooter and pull the trigger on it. Or you're playing in transition and you don't have time to set up and you're just improvising. Vision, decision, then pass. That's the process, and nobody was better at it than Magic IMO, and LeBron isn't Magic's chief rival. LeBron isn't even the best passer in the NBA today, much less better than the GOAT. LeBron makes flashy looking passes in transition and dumps off to open men on the corners on his drives. He's great at that stuff and has a great feel for the ball. He's not as good a passer as Magic was though.

Magic ran an uptempo transition heavy offense, he wasn't always playing point from traditional sets and just racking up assists on pick and rolls. He was improvising and reading the floor and making his own decisions. It means a ton that he averaged about 5 more assists per game than LeBron did when comparing their passing ability.

SM, you can't compare Magic's assist #'s to Lebron for two reasons.

1) Positions played.

2) Type(s) of offenses that they ran/run.

I don't put much weight in Magic averaging 5+ more assists (or whatever it is) than Lebron.

*Edit*

SM, would it be a lie if I said that Chris Webber is a better passer than guys like Raymond Felton or Baron Davis? Or do Felton/Davis' career APG totals in comparison to Webber totally make my statement invalid?

[nuposse87]

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8457259/nba-establishes-new-anti-flopping-penalties-fine-players

the penalties are in play now. I'm glad suspensions can be implemented. Superstars like CP3, Griffin and Wade will have the same incentive not to do it as people like Battier.

[Mr. Sinister]

To me, they should just not call it as much, or automatically call a foul of some kind on the guy that flops. Fining/suspending is absolutely ridiculous. It's not like the guy threw a freaking elbow.

[RonArtest15]

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8457259/nba-establishes-new-anti-flopping-penalties-fine-players

the penalties are in play now. I'm glad suspensions can be implemented. Superstars like CP3, Griffin and Wade will have the same incentive not to do it as people like Battier.

I don't think anything is going to come of this. NBA is making it seem like they are being proactive on this issue. How many times are dudes called for carrying the rock on a nightly basis?

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

If a guy flops, instead of a suspension, he should be forced to wear a soccer jersey the next game.

[CrypticVillain]

That flopping rule is some bull. Don't get me wrong, I am against flopping, but the penalties are way too harsh. How about just not blowing the whistle if they flop. That will make them stop. But to actually start suspending bammas for flopping is way too sever. Idiots.

With that being said.... shame on the person who does get suspended for flopping.

[Going Commando]

SM, would it be a lie if I said that Chris Webber is a better passer than guys like Raymond Felton or Baron Davis? Or do Felton/Davis' career APG totals in comparison to Webber totally make my statement invalid?

No you wouldn't be lying. But the analogy isn't very apt to a LeBron v Magic debate. First off, LeBron does run point a lot while CWebb was a PF/C most of the time. Second, Magic is widely considered the best passer and best PG in the league's history. Raymond Felton is a crappy PG and nothing special as a passer, and Baron Davis was a scoring PG without a reputation as a facilitator. Also, the discrepancy in their career APG numbers isn't nearly as big as the one between LeBron and Magic. Magic averaged 4.3 APG more than LeBron has.

---------- Post added October-4th-2012 at 02:21 PM ----------

I don't think anything is going to come of this. NBA is making it seem like they are being proactive on this issue. How many times are dudes called for carrying the rock on a nightly basis?

Carrying doesn't really hurt the image or credibility of the game like flopping does. People want to see flashy ball handling and not somebody slapping the ball around like it's the 1950's. They don't want to see unmanly, theatric flopping.

---------- Post added October-4th-2012 at 02:28 PM ----------

I don't have a problem with suspensions for flopping. It was becoming an entrenched part of the NBA game because of how much incentive there was for doing it. It was seriously hurting the sport. Maybe you all don't realize it because you're fans who've grown used to it and understand it's utility as a strategy, but it's an ENORMOUS turnoff for casual observers. It makes the NBA seem like a farce, which is death for any league. The league already seems like it's full of effete divas and clowns--a couple of uniform changes away from becoming the WWE. Credibility is far more rapidly lost than won.

So, err on the side of being too harsh because you've absolutely got to eliminate the behavior. I think suspension is a certain way to do it, and quickly.

---------- Post added October-4th-2012 at 02:35 PM ----------

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8461397/charles-barkley-thinks-lebron-james-better-michael-jordan

Barkley: LeBron better than Jordan?

NEW YORK -- Charles Barkley thinks LeBron James can be better than Michael Jordan.

Jordan is considered by many the best player in NBA history, but Barkley believes his teammate with the Dream Team can be surpassed by James.

"I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said. "I thought I would never compare somebody to Michael Jordan. But this guy, LeBron James, he does everything well. Michael did everything well. LeBron James is just bigger, stronger, faster. That's the only difference."...

What Barkley said is not what the article's title states. The "can be" part is kind of huge and the headline is clearly sensationalized by leaving it out.

But I thought it's an interesting debate no less. Can LeBron have a better career than Jordan? Maybe on an individual level. Even still, I doubt that. Some of Jordan's individual seasons are so ridiculous and the bar set so high, I can't see how any perimeter player will match them.

Barkley doesn't really have sacred cows, and he's pretty open to new talent and trying to project where it's legacy fits in the grand scheme of things. He talks about how he thinks Blake Griffin can be the best PF ever. Not sure if he's going to be right about that one either.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

That flopping rule is some bull. Don't get me wrong, I am against flopping, but the penalties are way too harsh. How about just not blowing the whistle if they flop. That will make them stop. But to actually start suspending bammas for flopping is way too sever. Idiots.

With that being said.... shame on the person who does get suspended for flopping.

its hard to tell if guys are flopping in real time in fairness.

---------- Post added October-4th-2012 at 07:02 PM ----------

No you wouldn't be lying. But the analogy isn't very apt to a LeBron v Magic debate. First off, LeBron does run point a lot while CWebb was a PF/C most of the time. Second, Magic is widely considered the best passer and best PG in the league's history. Raymond Felton is a crappy PG and nothing special as a passer, and Baron Davis was a scoring PG without a reputation as a facilitator. Also, the discrepancy in their career APG numbers isn't nearly as big as the one between LeBron and Magic. Magic averaged 4.3 APG more than LeBron has.

you just disagreed with your argument and agreed with what we are saying.

thats the entire point

[Sticksboi05]

LeBron is the only player playing that could equal MJ one day. Durant will never be the defender, Kobe tried and already failed; hell Kobe with 7 rings still isn't in MJ's class because he is so inefficient in comparison/ The thing is, LeBron won't get to 6 rings so when he ends his career I doubt he'll be considered greater. Individually though he is damn good. He will finish top 5 no question and could be on the top of the perch with MJ.

Durant is like a modern Larry Bird but nowhere near the playmaker. At all. But a bit better all around scorer. Close to as clutch. Better athlete obviously.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

of course Lebron could be better than MJ. I dont get why this shocks people. Lebron is probably the most talented player to enter the NBA since MJ.

Like Ive said before, its not ridiculous to say that guys like Kareem, Magic, Robertson, and Wilt are better.

[Going Commando]

you just disagreed with your argument and agreed with what we are saying.

thats the entire point

Where exactly is the contradiction?

---------- Post added October-5th-2012 at 08:43 AM ----------

of course Lebron could be better than MJ. I dont get why this shocks people. Lebron is probably the most talented player to enter the NBA since MJ.

Like Ive said before, its not ridiculous to say that guys like Kareem, Magic, Robertson, and Wilt are better.

Maybe Wilt. Maybe Kareem. But it is kind of ridiculous to say Magic or Robertson were better. MJ is, unquestionably, the greatest perimeter player in NBA history.

LeBron won't match MJ's level of individual achievement nor his team achievements. He's already behind and it's not going to get easier as he gets older.

[RonArtest15]

Where exactly is the contradiction?

---------- Post added October-5th-2012 at 08:43 AM ----------

Maybe Wilt. Maybe Kareem. But it is kind of ridiculous to say Magic or Robertson were better. MJ is, unquestionably, the greatest perimeter player in NBA history.

LeBron won't match MJ's level of individual achievement nor his team achievements. He's already behind and it's not going to get easier as he gets older.

Individual achievement, maybe. TEAM achievement, there is no saying. Point being, Lebron got his 1st title sooner than MJ and we just don't know what will happen in his career over the next 7-10 years. He's got a lot of b-ball left in him.

[Going Commando]

LeBron is the only player playing that could equal MJ one day. Durant will never be the defender, Kobe tried and already failed; hell Kobe with 7 rings still isn't in MJ's class because he is so inefficient in comparison/ The thing is, LeBron won't get to 6 rings so when he ends his career I doubt he'll be considered greater. Individually though he is damn good. He will finish top 5 no question and could be on the top of the perch with MJ.

Durant is like a modern Larry Bird but nowhere near the playmaker. At all. But a bit better all around scorer. Close to as clutch. Better athlete obviously.

Yeah, I can see your comparison. Durant is a little hard to peg because he's pretty unprecedented. Definitely some basic similarities with Bird but Durant has more guard in him and Bird more big man in him. There's a lot of similarity to George Gervin in Durant, except Durant is much more of a winner and multifaceted player. There's not a really clean comparison to be had.

Durant is going to have a pretty unique legacy. If he has a long career, I could see him breaking the scoring record. Probably at least finish second or third.

I think LeBron really compares to a hyper athletic Bird. He's gotten Magic and MJ comparisons earlier in his career. But since he moved to Miami, I think Bird is actually the one he's come to resemble among the greats. Let's say Bird's skills in Karl Malone's body.

If Kobe played in the 50's and 60's where 6'6 meant pure forward, he'd be a lot like Elgin Baylor.

---------- Post added October-5th-2012 at 09:07 AM ----------

Individual achievement, maybe. TEAM achievement, there is no saying. Point being, Lebron got his 1st title sooner than MJ and we just don't know what will happen in his career over the next 7-10 years. He's got a lot of b-ball left in him.

The thing is, when the Bulls won that first title, they were gearing up. The Thunder resemble those early Bulls teams more than Miami does. Young, coming into their own, ready for a long, sustainable run.

Last year's OKC is kind of where the 89-90 Bulls were. Talented enough to win it all, but not experienced enough to unseat the powers that be.

Miami is in their prime now, but Dwyane Wade has already started declining as a player and he's not going to have a long career. He's absolutely essential for the Heat to keep even with the super-teams in OKC and LA. So unless Derrick Rose or Chris Paul somehow ends up in Miami...

Also Jordan didn't have any fully formed super teams to contend with during his six championships. Stockton-Malone and Payton-Kemp weren't quite good enough to match up, Olajuwon was a one star show, Shaq-Penny fizzled as soon as it arrive, and Shaq-Kobe/Duncan-Robinson hadn't arrived yet. LeBron has to deal with LA and OKC plus a powerful Bulls team, an endlessly good Spurs team, and maybe something nasty brewing with the Clippers if CP3 stays there. There is a lot more in his way to running off a bunch of championships in a row.

As far as individual achievement, LeBron will come closer than any other active player to matching Jordan's crazy numbers, his high PER seasons and win share totals. But he's going to have to really book it from here on out to match or surpass them. It's unlikely.

Amazing when you think about how Jordan retired while still in his prime.

---------- Post added October-5th-2012 at 09:13 AM ----------

You know what my worst nightmare as a Wizard's fan is? John Wall gets run out of DC by our fans and ends up in Miami with LeBron just as he starts to enter his prime. Can you imagine how good those two would be playing together?

You know they are close friends and Wall would LOVE to play with him. Hell, remember the talk of LeBron going to the team with the first overall pick that summer because he'd want to play with a good PG and play with his buddy Wall?

I'm not sure I could think of some basketball thing that would hurt more than watching Wall beast out in a Miami jersey with LeBron.

[I_Bleed_B&G]

Damn Kobe, damn. Lol.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/kobe-bryant-calls-ex-teammate-smush-parker-worst-132154424--nba.html

[BigMike21]

I haven't been this unpumped for the NBA season in my entire life. Damn it all to hell.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Damn Kobe, damn. Lol.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/kobe-bryant-calls-ex-teammate-smush-parker-worst-132154424--nba.html

Smush should thank Kobe for earning an NBA paycheck. I get why Kobe constantly takes a dump on dude, Smush Parker thought he was a lot better than he actually was. Parker was actually a garbage player that was kept in the league because of how cheap the Lakers were and how amazing Kobe was during those year. Kobe wasted 2-3 years of his absolute prime playing with Kwame, Smush, Brian Cook, Luke Walton, and Chris Mihm. I get it.

I haven't been this unpumped for the NBA season in my entire life. Damn it all to hell.

same, i have no idea why but im meh about the start of the season.

[pjfootballer]

I haven't been this unpumped for the NBA season in my entire life. Damn it all to hell.

Gee I wonder why? Seeing how the NBA already has the Lakers and Heat scheduled for a 7 game series in June, why would you be pumped? I mean, since 1979 (since the Seattle Supersonics beat the Bullets) the NBA has only 8 franchises out of the 32 that have won a title (33 years). Why in the world would anyone who isn't a Heat or Laker fan be pumped for this season? The NBA is like groundhog day, just the same thing, over and over and over and over and over again.

Plus with the lockout, you feel like you just watch this a week ago when the season went longer into the summer.

[Going Commando]

Smush should thank Kobe for earning an NBA paycheck. I get why Kobe constantly takes a dump on dude, Smush Parker thought he was a lot better than he actually was. Parker was actually a garbage player that was kept in the league because of how cheap the Lakers were and how amazing Kobe was during those year. Kobe wasted 2-3 years of his absolute prime playing with Kwame, Smush, Brian Cook, Luke Walton, and Chris Mihm. I get it.

Kobe apologia. Blatant evidence Kobe is a **** teammate and you applaud it.

---------- Post added October-12th-2012 at 10:56 AM ----------

I haven't been this unpumped for the NBA season in my entire life. Damn it all to hell.

Well looking at your sig might explain it. The Redskins are a relevant national story now, the Orioles are good this year, and the Magic just gave away their franchise player and are the likely favorite for the first overall pick. It's only natural for you.

I'm in a similar boat. Swap out Orioles for Nats and Wizards for Magic. The Wizards are bound for the lottery with John Wall missing the first month.

I still get excited for the NBA season though because, even if I didn't care about a single team, I still love watching basketball. I enjoy the NBA too. When you love basketball, love storylines and hooplah, and love the history of the league, the NBA can be wildly entertaining.

I need to go get NBA 2k13. Playing the 2K games always gets me pumped for the season. But it seems like I just got Madden and NCAA football a little while ago and have barely had any time to get into them.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Kobe apologia. Blatant evidence Kobe is a **** teammate and you applaud it

and this is blatant "I hate Kobe and will say ridiculous things like DWade is a better jump shooter than Kobe even though I am wrong. ANd I will also say ridiculous things like Kobe scores most of his baskets by driving to the hoop, and then when proven wrong by stats I never actually talk about it again" nonsense.

This is Smush Parker's response:

“The reason I wasn't a Laker after my second year is because I didn't bow down to [bryant]. I didn't kiss his ass. I wasn't kissing his feet," Parker told Hard 2 Guard. "Quite frankly, towards the end of the second season, I stopped passing him the ball. I stopped giving him the ball. I started looking him off.”

Smush Parker is saying that nonsense. Think about that, the arrogance of Smush Parker to say, "I looked off Kobe Bryant."

Kobe is a weirdo and an aloof person. I get that, but he isnt a bad teammate. You dont win 5 NBA titles as a bad teammate. But its tough to win anything with terrible players around you. Kobe spent 2 years of his prime, when he was the best player in the NBA, with Smush Parker looking him off. SMUSH PARKER!

Smush Parker was a terrible player who is lucky to have played with Kobe because that fooled teams into thinking dude was a decent player only for those teams to sign him and realize he aint nothing. Parker only played 286 games in the NBA, 174 of those games was with Kobe and the Lakers. He is lucky to have played with Kobe, and is fortunate that he got a contract somewhere else on the back of those two years with Kobe. He is also lucky Kobe still mentions him. He is lucky that because Kobe mentioned him, he got an interview for some radio show.

Look at Smush Parker in the present

and look at Kobe reacting to that picture of Smush Parker and his comments

Kobe won, he gonna get ring #6 and maybe #7, and its gonna make Smush and Mr. "DWade is a better jumpshooter than Kobe" mad. GOOD!

[Going Commando]

Hey Asiatic, who said DWade is a better jump shooter than Kobe?

Are you talking about me?

Anyway, yours is a classic example of an attempt to dodge around the simple truth that, with his own mouth, Kobe condemns himself as a ****ty teammate.

You're a Kobe fan. I get it. Kobe fans are not rational about the guy. I'd be glad to talk stats with you, but you are the one who rarely acknowledges them, and you are the one who completely writes off PER and WS. The stats demonstrate Kobe is an inefficient, ball-hogging chucker. That confirms what the eye of any objective observer has seen his entire career.

[Going Commando]

Also, Asiatic, I wouldn't be so smug about Kobe being a better jump shooter than Wade. He's a better jump shooter, but not by nearly as big a margin as you seem to think. Wade got better over the course of his career and actually has nice mechanics on his jumper, and converts them at a decent rate. Kobe, by any measure, is not a great jump shooter.

Here's a stat for you:

Kobe Bean Bryant 2011-2012 jumpers,

443/1144, 38.7%, 44.7% of them assisted.

D Wade 2011-2012 jumpers,

190/487 for 38.2 %, 24.7% of them assisted.

How Kobe was able to take 1144 jumpers is a strike shortened year is beyond me, and frankly, it's more evidence of his selfishness, particularly since he was shooting 38.7% on those things. By contrast, Kevin Durant, who is what a good jump shooter looks like, went 429/1005 for 42.7%, 48.5% of his buckets assisted.

So to sum it up, Kobe took a ton of bad shots, Dwyane Wade took a ton fewer, and made them at about the same %, even thought he was getting harder looks because he was assisted on about half as many as Kobe was.

Kobe Bryant=amazingly selfish, chucking: out of the playoffs early and forces wholesale changes to his team in the offseason.

Dwyane Wade=put the team above himself, played within himself, deferred to a superior teammate: Championship.

[Sticksboi05]

Asiatic no offense but you are one to talk about ignoring statistics. You ignored an entire page of comprehensive simple and advanced stats showing Dwyane Wade was the more efficient player in his prime....which he was.