Poll: Better team: '92 Dream Team vs '08 Redeem Team

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

The physicality of the game is not all about pure mass. Also Pippen was a bulky guy in his prime. What I mean by physical play is that in the era the Dream Team played the defenders were allowed to much more contact on the perimeter than today. I woudl think it is easier to adjust from having alot of contact to getting more room to move than the other way around.

I am aware of what you meant in terms of physicality. That is what I was responding too.

I know you could hand check back then, but a hand check is not going to be enough to slow down someone like Lebron. Kobe, and Melo.

[sjinhan]

I am aware of what you meant in terms of physicality. That is what I was responding too.

I know you could hand check back then, but a hand check is not going to be enough to slow down someone like Lebron. Kobe, and Melo.

Hand check is not only thing that the NBA eliminated. There are signifant amount of physical contact that was taken out of the league... Also in the past you could always have your center parked in the paint all day... Make it much harder to get to the basket.

For people that asks.. Who would Magic Johnson defend? In 1992, Magic would have been a role player so let's not get bent out of the shape on his defensive ability as he would not be playing many minutes.

People that asks who will defend the PGs... It will be more than likely Pippen as it was often his role on the Bulls to defend the dominating PGs on the opposing team. Also don't think John Stockton is a push over on defense as he led the league in steals year after year for a long time.

I think in a real game the starting line up would be

Stockton

Jordan

Pippen

Malone

Robinson

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Hand check is not only thing that the NBA eliminated. There are signifant amount of physical contact that was taken out of the league... Also in the past you could always have your center parked in the paint all day... Make it much harder to get to the basket.

thats not true.

The 3 second rule has always been in existent. That and illegal defense was there to prevent teams parking centers in the paint. Illegal defense is gone now with the allowance of zone defense.

when people say physicality has been taken out the game, they mean hand check on perimeter players and the harsher penalties on hard fouls. But also big men have disappeared from the game.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Lol, if you told me there is a poll in the Tailgate that's 60-2, I can give you a list of five posters, and I guarantee at least one of those five is one of the against-the-grain votes. Some people just live to be smarter than everyone else.

[SpacePenguin]

I used to really enjoy the NBA until they changed the handchecking rules. Now it's nothing but iso drives and foul calls.

Ugh.

But anyway, I agree Magic was really not in very good form by 92, and he only got spot minutes. He may get more playing time late in the game, if things get ugly. Which they likely would in this game, considering the matchups down low.

Its a far different league than it was in 92, but I'd say regardless of the rules being used, Patrick Ewing would injure soft ass Chris Bosh with an elbow to the face by the 2nd quarter. Swinging those was his signature move, after all.

The funny thing is, back then, Ewing wasn't even considered all that dirty.

And I don't even like Ewing, but I would enjoy it.

[Hubbs]

Is this really a question? Have you stopped beating your wife yet, MattFancy? :pfft:

[CrypticVillain]

Is this really a question? Have you stopped beating your wife yet, MattFancy? :pfft:

Man, I was looking for a way to use this on somebody.

[GibbsFactor]

Is this really a question? Have you stopped beating your wife yet, MattFancy? :pfft:

That's a clown question, bro.

[HailToTheRedskins14]

It's not like Magic was crippled out there. Teams can and do win even while having a mismatch on defense.

But forget "who is Magic gonna guard?", I wanna know who will guard Robinson, Ewing, Malone, and Jordan. Bosh, Howard, and Kobe? Sadly, the closest matchup there is Kobe on Jordan. They just don't make big men like they used to.

[MattFancy]

Is this really a question? Have you stopped beating your wife yet, MattFancy? :pfft:

That's a clown question, bro.

Winning!

---------- Post added June-15th-2012 at 09:43 AM ----------

Who does Magic guard?

I don't think that matters. Like others have said, there is no big man on the 08 team that could guard Robinson, Malone, or Ewing. Sure LBJ could go off, but the rest of the team outside of Kobe, would have zero chance.

[sjinhan]

thats not true.

The 3 second rule has always been in existent. That and illegal defense was there to prevent teams parking centers in the paint. Illegal defense is gone now with the allowance of zone defense.

when people say physicality has been taken out the game, they mean hand check on perimeter players and the harsher penalties on hard fouls. But also big men have disappeared from the game.

Have you actually seen may game back in the day? Of course they had the 3 sec rule because they did not technically allow for zone defenses. I say technically cause teams still played a version of a zone defense as they had to honor the 3 sec rule to at least be near an offensive player. However all the center had to do is keep within a reasonable distance to an offensive player and he can park in the paint ALL day since the 3 sec rule back then was only to keep a defender from staying in an area in a zone without guarding an offensive player. Now with the rule changes, they have effectively moved all of the big men out of the box as now it is illegal for a defender to be standing in the box more than 3 secs. This is a SIGNIFICANT change in how the defenses are allowed to play.

If you don't think that rules changes changed how big men can play now in the league then I think guess there is no point even arguing with you any more... obviously you didn't grow up watching the NBA in the 80s to early 90s. The big men have disappeared because the rules have essentially made the NBA to a more perimeter biased league. Its same as the NFL in which the rule changes in the past 10-15 years have made the league into a more passing biased league.

Also with the hand checks... its just one of the things they took out. Basically before the defenders could use body up, use an arm bar, hand check and even slight holding (if the player doesnt have the ball) to slow down the opposing player. Now the NBA rules actually state that defender cannot impede the "free movement" of a offensive player... Again this is not a small change in the rules, this completely changed how the NBA is being played now.

It said when the European players come to the NBA now... they say stuff like this...

Ricky Rubio

NBA TV:

"Ricky, what's the biggest adjustment you have had to make from playing in Barcelona, to now playing here in the states?"

Ricky Rubio:

"It's basketball, so in the end of the day, it's the same thing. But, over here, maybe, you can run more. There are more spaces because there is a defensive 3 second zone.

And it's easy to play here, because of all the spaces you have, and they can't be more than 3 seconds in the zone. So that it looks easier going to the rim.

[Sebowski]

I think 2012 had potential to be better than 1992 before Rose and Howard got hurt. I don't know why we are debating '08.

I don't like '08's bench. 2012's bench had the potential to be sickening. There are three starters on '08 who would be bench players on '12 if everyone is healthy.

Because '12 hasn't played a game yet?

The game isn't played on paper. '92 was a well oiled machine. '08 would get completely schooled.

---------- Post added June-15th-2012 at 10:47 AM ----------

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/jack_mccallum/08/14/dream.team/index.html

Good luck beating that chemistry.

Thanks for the link. Cool piece.

Here is the fundamental question: who do Magic and Barkley defend? They played a ton of minutes on the '92 team' date=' but I think their D would be a huge problem against the '08 team and especially the '12 team. If '08 rolls out Paul, Wade/Kobe, Lebron, and Melo...the Dream Team has to play zone if they want Magic or Barkley on the floor.

The other big question is are we playing by international rules or NBA rules? I think International rules help the '08 team because the closer three point line makes up for their somewhat lacking three point shooting. The International rules also help '08 because it forces Ewing and Robinson further away from the basket.

And the margin of victory thing is silly. The '92 team could conceivably lose in the 2012 Olympics. (Spain could beat them, I think). There was no chance they were losing in '92. The level of play around the globe is exponentially better now. The Gasol brothers could match up against, say, Barkley and Ewing down low. No team had any hope of matching the '92 team at any position. [b']Kukoc was probably the best international player in '92[/b] and he was simply a good player in the NBA. Spain can now roll out a team with potential and literal NBA all stars at multiple positions.

So much wrong with this. I'll just put this here for the bolded part. From FanBoy's link:

On the game against Croatia when the Dream Team vowed to shut down Toni Kukoc, who had received a lucrative contract offer from the Bulls. And shut him down they did:

Barkley: "I remember Michael was, like, foaming at the mouth. 'Kukoc makes more money than Scottie and I put together! Wherever he goes, I got him!' And Michael and Scottie shut him down. It was hilarious."

[pjfootballer]

the 2008 team could give them a great game but the Dream Team wins.

Lebron is 260 lbs

Carmelo is like 240

Wade was even 225

the perimeter player with the most mass you mentioned there was Pippen who was 220. I dont think the physicality would be a problem for the 2008 team

I also resent this "they were more skilled" argument or that the 2008 team was more athletic than the 1992 team

The Dream Team would win in the end because they had the size advantage down low.

it could not be because international basketball standards were no where near as good as they were in 2008.

If the Dream Team played in 2008 against that comp, they would not be winning by 40-50 points a game. These teams were taking pictures during the game, ffs

We'd have to decide on 1992 rules or 2008 rules. I mean if you allowed the 1992 players a "fountain of youth" and they had the training today's athletes do, they'd kill the 2008 team. Or vice versa. LeBron wouldn't be 260 and athletic. He'd be 225 and athletic. I never said they'd beat the 2008 by 40 or 50. I said 20. 40-50 was against the 1992 competition. They would have still beaten the international teams by 30 if the skill level was the same in 1992 as 2008. You are seriously underestimating the Dream Team. I mean besides Laettner, who the hell is LeBron going to guard? Kobe? Bird would make LeBron look silly on defense. Jordan was one of the better defensive players. I'd put Karl Malone or Barkley on James. Let him try to move them and if he goes by them, he'll have Ewing or Robinson to deal with.

---------- Post added June-15th-2012 at 04:43 PM ----------

You guys act like Magic guarded 6-5 point guards in his day. He was guarding smaller guys in his day.

---------- Post added June-15th-2012 at 04:46 PM ----------

It's not like Magic was crippled out there. Teams can and do win even while having a mismatch on defense.

But forget "who is Magic gonna guard?", I wanna know who will guard Robinson, Ewing, Malone, and Jordan. Bosh, Howard, and Kobe? Sadly, the closest matchup there is Kobe on Jordan. They just don't make big men like they used to.

I know. Seems that everyone is worried about who the Dream Team will guard. They don't need to guard Redeem Team. They'd outscore them to death. I want to know how Redeem Team "stops" Dream Team because defense from Dream Team is adequate enough.

[skinfan2k]

Watching this documentary makes me remember how good Pippen was in his heyday

[sportjunkie07]

i think that in most sports, current athletes would whip former athletes. in this case, i think the 92' team would soundly handle the 08' team.

[MattFancy]

Watching this documentary makes me remember how good Pippen was in his heyday

If he was on any team other than the Bulls, dude would be talked about ALOT more.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

If he was on any team other than the Bulls, dude would be talked about ALOT more.

He was awesome the year Jordan served his suspension for gambiling, I mean, "retired."

Of course, all that is remembered from that year is his tantrum against the Knicks.

Some players aren't designed to be "the guy."

[SpacePenguin]

He was awesome the year Jordan served his suspension for gambiling' date=' I mean, "retired."

Of course, all that is remembered from that year is his tantrum against the Knicks.

Some players aren't designed to be "the guy."[/quote']

IIRC, Pippen flipped out because Toni Kukoc was going to get the last shot, which oddly enough....I think he hit it lmao. Didn't Pippen even come back and play in OT? Sorry, It's been years.

[Mr. Sinister]

He was awesome the year Jordan served his suspension for gambiling' date=' I mean, "retired."[/b']

Of course, all that is remembered from that year is his tantrum against the Knicks.

Some players aren't designed to be "the guy."

I'm not sure if you're being serious or not, but what's the story behind that? I'm not old enough to remember all of that stuff surrounding his retirement, and all the rumors that may or may not have come with it. I just remember how weird it was watching the Bulls without him.

Oh, and I'll take the Dream Team. I think a better discussion would have been the '96 squad against the Redeem Team

[skinfan2k]

I'm not sure if you're being serious or not, but what's the story behind that? I'm not old enough to remember all of that stuff surrounding his retirement, and all the rumors that may or may not have come with it. I just remember how weird it was watching the Bulls without him.

Oh, and I'll take the Dream Team. I think a better discussion would have been the '96 squad against the Redeem Team

The rumor has always been that Jordan gambled and was suspended for the entire year and used baseball and the excuse of his father's death to play baseball.

[Mr. Sinister]

The rumor has always been that Jordan gambled and was suspended for the entire year and used baseball and the excuse of his father's death to play baseball.

Well that would explain a lot. The idea of him up and quitting basketball in the prime of his career as the the top player in the game, only to play for the freaking Birmingham Barons, and then come right back, never really made much sense to me.

[grhqofb5]

Well that would explain a lot. The idea of him up and quitting basketball in the prime of his career as the the top player in the game, only to play for the freaking Birmingham Barons, and then come right back, never really made much sense to me.

This actually makes no sense to me. If David Stern wanted to suspend Jordan, this was not the way to do it. Think of it like this: (1) The NBA (Stern) has the ability to suspend players for personal conduct violations, (2) Jordan violates the policy by racking up huge gambling debts (3) the NBA decides to suspend Jordan, but not tell anyone about it because its too embarassing to the league. The NBA and Jordan agree that he'll take a year and a 3/4 off to play "baseball. (3) After his suspesion is over Jordan will come back.

Wouldn't it have just been easier to sweep the matter under the rug? For example, if the NBA were so afraid of the public backlash, why suspend him at all? Just do the full cover up. What, are they going to tell Jordan that he has to leave for a year, and that if he refuses they're going to shoot themselves in the *** by revealing the extent of his involvment with gambling?

[skinsfan07]

My thought is while the 2008 is probably more athletic, there is no way the 92 team would lose. They are better at just about every position.

lol more athletic? GTFO bro.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Have you actually seen may game back in the day? Of course they had the 3 sec rule because they did not technically allow for zone defenses. I say technically cause teams still played a version of a zone defense as they had to honor the 3 sec rule to at least be near an offensive player. However all the center had to do is keep within a reasonable distance to an offensive player and he can park in the paint ALL day since the 3 sec rule back then was only to keep a defender from staying in an area in a zone without guarding an offensive player. Now with the rule changes, they have effectively moved all of the big men out of the box as now it is illegal for a defender to be standing in the box more than 3 secs. This is a SIGNIFICANT change in how the defenses are allowed to play.

If you don't think that rules changes changed how big men can play now in the league then I think guess there is no point even arguing with you any more... obviously you didn't grow up watching the NBA in the 80s to early 90s. The big men have disappeared because the rules have essentially made the NBA to a more perimeter biased league. Its same as the NFL in which the rule changes in the past 10-15 years have made the league into a more passing biased league.

Also with the hand checks... its just one of the things they took out. Basically before the defenders could use body up, use an arm bar, hand check and even slight holding (if the player doesnt have the ball) to slow down the opposing player. Now the NBA rules actually state that defender cannot impede the "free movement" of a offensive player... Again this is not a small change in the rules, this completely changed how the NBA is being played now.

im pretty sure that rule has not changed. A big man can still stay in the paint area as long as they are reasonably close to an opposing player.

And I grew up watching and being disgusted by 1990s bball, thank you very much.

I said it before, but Lebron is still 260 lbs and the fastest player on the court (or at most behind Jordan). A hand check isnt going to give him much problems, and it will help him on defense. And Lebron would take damage from big men in the 90s (which is what I think you are saying and I actually agree with, Stern has softened the paint area for perimeter players to roam freely). But outside of adding zone, the rules are 'technically' the same, Just that hard fouls are punished more.

And allowing a guy like Lebron or Kobe or even a Durant to use their arms on defenders would also cause those older guys issues. Thats what I said earlier.

Also, NBA courts are longer and wider than FIBA courts.

I dont think me and you are disagreeing as much as you want to believe.

---------- Post added June-18th-2012 at 11:30 PM ----------

We'd have to decide on 1992 rules or 2008 rules. I mean if you allowed the 1992 players a "fountain of youth" and they had the training today's athletes do, they'd kill the 2008 team. Or vice versa. LeBron wouldn't be 260 and athletic. He'd be 225 and athletic. I never said they'd beat the 2008 by 40 or 50. I said 20. 40-50 was against the 1992 competition. They would have still beaten the international teams by 30 if the skill level was the same in 1992 as 2008. You are seriously underestimating the Dream Team. I mean besides Laettner, who the hell is LeBron going to guard? Kobe? Bird would make LeBron look silly on defense. Jordan was one of the better defensive players. I'd put Karl Malone or Barkley on James. Let him try to move them and if he goes by them, he'll have Ewing or Robinson to deal with.

Well if you want to play the reverse game, then Ewing, DRob, Barkley, and Malone would be perimeter players in today's NBA as thats what they would have grown up trying to play as. That negates the 1992 team's greatest advantage.

And Larry Bird with a bad back would not do anything to Lebron James. This is absurd.

And I didnt take the 1992 team lightly. I said they would win, I just think it would be a good game.

[skinfan2k]

3 seconds was just introduced buddy. get your facts right. You could literally camp in the paint in the 90s and you could not get to the bucket as easily as you do now