DM72 Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Let me ask this. Has the father's claim been proven? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulane Skins Fan Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Well - your just wrong....Texas Self defense laws. http://www.self-defender.net/law3.htm Deadly Force in Defense of Person "A person is justified in using deadly force against another if he would be justified in using force under Section 9.31 of the statute when and to the degree he reasonable believes that deadly force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force, if a reasonable person in the same situation would have not retreated. The use of deadly force is also justified to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, rape or robbery." Defense of Another Person "A person is justified in using deadly force against an attacker to protect another person if he would be justified to use it to protect himself against an unlawful attack and he reasonably believes his intervention is immediately necessary to protect the other person from serious injury or death. Go back and read what I wrote because you are not understanding it. I'll just say it one more time and hope it sinks in. What he's claiming is defense of others, which is an "affirmative defense." This means that the burden of proof is probably on him for certain things. He must prove specific facts to obtain that defense. It is not "legal" to kill someone for this reason. If he can prove all these things, whatever they are, he can prove "justifiable homicide." Again, this is why we have due process. You are presuming a lot of things. For example, is there evidence that the child was actually molested? Was there time between when the father found this alleged molestation happening and the murder? Was their a so-called "cooling off" period? These questions need to be answered after an investigation. But for the third time, you're not correct that its "legal to kill someone that has molested your daughter." That statement is simply not true because the facts have to be examined on a case by case basis. Now, from a personal standpoint, and assuming that the story is exactly as the article says it is, I don't think the guy will be charged with much, if anything, and I severely doubt a jury would find against him and send him to jail. All of this is why I said in the beginning that he'll probably agree to go to some counseling - which he probably will WANT to undergo after accidentally killing someone - and maybe be given some probation time with his record expunged after so many years of time. By the way, don't quote www.self-defender.net, whatever that is. That's like quoting wikipedia.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.C.O.L.B. Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Reminds me of this infamous incident from the 80's He didn't do any time either and they got the whole thing on tape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMK9973 Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Go back and read what I wrote because you are not understanding it.I'll just say it one more time and hope it sinks in. What he's claiming is defense of others, which is an "affirmative defense." This means that the burden of proof is probably on him for certain things. He must prove specific facts to obtain that defense. It is not "legal" to kill someone for this reason. If he can prove all these things, whatever they are, he can prove "justifiable homicide." But your not understanding. Thats NOT the law in Texas (You might not like the source but it's just a copy of the Texas law. I'm sure you can find other sources) In texas.... 1 - HE doesn't have to prove it. He simply needs to raise it as a defense. In MOST states, yes, you have to PROVE it was self defense. In Texas, He simply has to raise it and the Prosecution then would need to PROVE beyond a reasonable doubt that it wasn't self defense. So again -You are very wrong when you say he would have to prove certain things. No..he doesnt. He simply needs to raise it. (What does raise it mean? He has to agree it happened and he did it. You cant say "I didn't do it, but if I did..it was justified". ) 2 - In TEXAS (Where this happened) Self defense laws (Such as the one that says if you raise it as a defense and then it has to be disproven) apply's to defense of others. Such as...your daughter. I'm not saying its legal to kill someone who molested your daughter... I'm saying, In the state of Texas, its legal to use deadly force to stop someone from being rapped. And if I claim that is what happened, the state will have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it didn't happen that way. ---------- Post added June-13th-2012 at 04:24 PM ---------- BTW- Better source for you... http://law.onecle.com/texas/penal/9.32.00.html http://law.onecle.com/texas/penal/9.33.00.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWFLSkins Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Honestly, I get WHY you said that, but you are the one who is wrong. I'm not saying he should be charged with anything, or that if he were charged he would be found guilty, but you are wrong that there is not a case against him for some sort of unlawful killing. I think he gets some mental health, which he probably wants, and probation. Its really disturbing how very little most people understand about due process. Again, wrong see above. Self-defense is an affirmative defense. And its not self defense. Its "defense of others," and the burden to prove certain things may be on him. And you don't have to "try to kill a guy" to commit murder. You have to act with malice. Again, due process for all. That's the constitution. Would'nt he have to be charged and convicted of something to get probation and mental health (counselling) I understand due process, and yeah he might have to answer someone somewhere about the killing, but you and I both know if they charge him with something firm, like a felony the public outcry would cause politicians to scurry like mice on the Titanic. Please tell me why you think anyone could present any kind of charge that would even bring him probation or that he would accept it? Counselling sure, but court mandated? I don't see it bud. This hot potato will be dropped and right quick. I could be wrong, but this seems pretty cut and dry. Child being injured, sexually, man intervenes and kills him. Anyone ? anyone see a crime beyond the one being committed on the child? but hey that's up to the DA, if he wants to practice law in the region after public service ends abruptly I would think he would pass. Florida's SYG law would be clear here, what is Texas law in these cases where the crime happened in his home?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsfan07 Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Reminds me of this infamous incident from the 80's He didn't do any time either and they got the whole thing on tape. As it should be. That made me smile. If only the courts thought the same way. "If it was your child, you would have done the same thing" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.C.O.L.B. Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 As it should be. That made me smile. If only the courts thought the same way. "If it was your child, you would have done the same thing" Well actually, here the court did think the same way. He only got probation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsfan07 Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Well actually, here the court did think the same way. He only got probation. Well I guess they did have to charge him with something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWFLSkins Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Let me ask this. Has the father's claim been proven? That's a great question, I assumed it was since they took her to the hospital and then released her, but yeah great question./ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robotfire Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 From the article: Asked whether they would press charges against the father, the sheriff responded, "You have a right to defend your daughter. He acted in defense of his third person. Once the investigation is completed we will submit it to the district attorney who then submits it to the grand jury, who will decide if they will indict him." It also says that the dad feels incredible remorse and didn't intend to kill the guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsiaticSkinsFan Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulane Skins Fan Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Would'nt he have to be charged and convicted of something to get probation and mental health (counselling) I understand due process, and yeah he might have to answer someone somewhere about the killing, but you and I both know if they charge him with something firm, like a felony the public outcry would cause politicians to scurry like mice on the Titanic. Please tell me why you think anyone could present any kind of charge that would even bring him probation or that he would accept it? Counselling sure, but court mandated? I don't see it bud. This hot potato will be dropped and right quick. I could be wrong, but this seems pretty cut and dry. Child being injured, sexually, man intervenes and kills him. Anyone ? anyone see a crime beyond the one being committed on the child? but hey that's up to the DA, if he wants to practice law in the region after public service ends abruptly I would think he would pass. Florida's SYG law would be clear here, what is Texas law in these cases where the crime happened in his home?? Wouldn't have to be convicted, I don't think. Also, it is still being missed that the defendant has to prove his defense. If you think that a defendant can avoid a murder charge by RAISING the defense of self defense, then I've got a canal in panama I would like to sell you. How would ou ever convict Nyone if claiming self defense means you are free! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 ,Yeah simply raising it is not enough ,but actually presenting a majority/preponderance of evidence of self defense(or defense of another in this case) does provide immunity in some places doesn't it? the more likely than not affirmative defense does not have to wait for a trial or even charges filed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sisko Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 I fault the father in this case...for not picking up something heavy and doing the deed in one stroke. I mean really, multiple strikes shouldn't have been necessary in this case, though I can certainly understand why they'd feel good regardless of whether needed or not. Go back and read what I wrote because you are not understanding it.I'll just say it one more time and hope it sinks in. What he's claiming is defense of others, which is an "affirmative defense." This means that the burden of proof is probably on him for certain things. He must prove specific facts to obtain that defense. It is not "legal" to kill someone for this reason. If he can prove all these things, whatever they are, he can prove "justifiable homicide." Again, this is why we have due process. You are presuming a lot of things. For example, is there evidence that the child was actually molested? Was there time between when the father found this alleged molestation happening and the murder? Was their a so-called "cooling off" period? These questions need to be answered after an investigation. But for the third time, you're not correct that its "legal to kill someone that has molested your daughter." That statement is simply not true because the facts have to be examined on a case by case basis. Now, from a personal standpoint, and assuming that the story is exactly as the article says it is, I don't think the guy will be charged with much, if anything, and I severely doubt a jury would find against him and send him to jail. All of this is why I said in the beginning that he'll probably agree to go to some counseling - which he probably will WANT to undergo after accidentally killing someone - and maybe be given some probation time with his record expunged after so many years of time. By the way, don't quote www.self-defender.net, whatever that is. That's like quoting wikipedia.org Look, I agree that in a strict legal sense there might be some hay to be made here. However this isn't law school. In the real world where one has to be convicted by a jury, I can't imagine any 12 people you could find anywhere would convict this guy as long as he was correct that his daughter was being molested. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss_Hogg Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 I don't blame the father for doing what he did. I would have had the same reaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sticksboi05 Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 He committed a crime technically, I think, but damned if he should be found guilty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMK9973 Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 If you think that a defendant can avoid a murder charge by RAISING the defense of self defense, then I've got a canal in panama I would like to sell you. How would ou ever convict Nyone if claiming self defense means you are free! Um - I didnt say just because its raised means your free. No more then I can say "I didnt do it" and be free. No - But just because its raised DOES mean it has to be proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, that it wasnt. You know...kind of like if you say you didn't kill the person they have to PROVE, beyond a reasonable doubt, that you did. So why doesn't everyone claim it? Because then you admitted you were there, and that you did it. Like I pointed out, you cant say I didn't do it but if I did, It was self defense. How can they prove it didnt happen? Say way you prove any murder. Motive? Physical evidence, etc....Texas laws on self defense are different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCchillin89 Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 If I had a 4 year old and I witnessed that, forget punching/stomping, I'd go bath salts on the dude. I can't even listen to the Sandusky trial anymore. There is simply no greater sin than that IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 We have no way of knowing if the fathers claim is true. Assuming that it is, I see nothing wrong with what the father did based on what I read in that article. Had that spineless ***** at Penn State had a similar reaction to finding Sandusky in the shower with a victim a lot of ugly **** would have been avoided. I'm not saying he had to kill him, and I doubt this father meant to, but delivering a beating in order to stop a rape in progress is IMO an appropriate response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morning Wood Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 I have a very close personal friend who at the age of 15, was sexually assaulted by a trusted family member. On Christmas Eve no less. Her innocence, confidence, and trust, all taken away at that moment. Her life’s path, immediately altered. She is 32 now, and still has night terrors. No amount of therapy will ever allow her to unlive what she went through. She is a good, genuine soul, and it’s absolutely heartbreaking to know the horror she carries. I also have an 8 year old daughter… I feel no sympathy for the deceased. My only complaint is that he didn't suffer long enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosher Ham Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 I can not imagine not killing the guy. Not for a second. Kudos to those of you that have that type of self-control. That is a rare instance that I would turn vigilante. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingGibbs Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Kinggibbs stands up and gives the father a standing ovation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimboDaMan Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 We have no way of knowing if the fathers claim is true. Assuming that it is, I see nothing wrong with what the father did based on what I read in that article.Cooler heads hopefully prevail here. I do recall an incident a couple years ago where a guy killed his neighbor because he became convinced the guy snuck into his daughter's bedroom during the night and molested her. Problem is there was never any evidence of that, and the neighbor had absolutely nothing in his background to suggest he was capable. I don't think there was evidence that the little girl had been bothered at all, far less that the neighbor had done anything. The problem seemed to be entirely with the father. Lets hope this guy is telling the truth and can prove it, then we can award him a medal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sisko Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 I can not imagine not killing the guy. Not for a second. Kudos to those of you that have that type of self-control. That is a rare instance that I would turn vigilante. The only person I can think of with that kind of self control is Michael Dukakis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HogNose Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 I would shake his hand and buy him a drink. I have two little boys and if I caught anyone abusing them like this then it would be all over. I can't image the rage that would flow through my body. I hope the little girl gets the help she needs, but I'm sure she will be haunted. Innocence lost, very sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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