TDB: Ashley Judd Slaps Media in the Face for Speculation over Her "Puffy" Appearance

[Forehead]

Besides that 3rd magazine cover, which is out-of-character for her, none of those magazine covers are really even remotely sexual.

"Out of character" means she was willing to be part of it. And I'm sorry, regardless of her style of dress, she's posing for magazine covers with headlines like "Ultimate Sex do's and don'ts" and "Men's Top 10 Sex Wants." She doesn't know what kind of articles Cosmo prints on a regular basis? Women as a whole are definitely victims of what she's complaining about, but I don't view her specifically as a victim. She made money off the machine, then turns around and complains about it, and as I pointed out earlier, still manages to pat herself on the back for her skin, body size, etc.

[Koala]

"Out of character" means she was willing to be part of it. And I'm sorry, regardless of her style of dress, she's posing for magazine covers with headlines like "Ultimate Sex do's and don'ts" and "Men's Top 10 Sex Wants." She doesn't know what kind of articles Cosmo prints on a regular basis? Women as a whole are definitely victims of what she's complaining about, but I don't view her specifically as a victim. She made money off the machine, then turns around and complains about it, and as I pointed out earlier, still manages to pat herself on the back for her skin, body size, etc.

Like I said, Ashley Judd might not be the best person to make this point, but her point is still valid. Now, can we move on and discuss what she actually had to say instead of falling back on ad hominem attacks on the writer?

[Jumbo]

In the tailgate (for some) men & women are equally treated in this fashion, blacks & whites suffer equal discrimination, and CNN is equally crazy & biased as Fox News, etc. The idea that extremely relevant variance in degrees of such things (God forbid we even begin to approach a concept like "nuance", which is far removed from what i'm addressing) is well worth noting and easily (if the prefrontal cortex is actually working) acknowledged.

Some seem to prefer a corruption of that old U.S. Army slogan: "Be the least you can be."

It may be more accurate to say: "Be all you already were."

[Koala]

The magazines themselves are. And here she is gracing the covers of them. Here's a question: If she looked like her sister Wynonna would she have enjoyed anything close to the success she achieved?

No ofcourse not. Which again, is THE WHOLE POINT!!!!!

[SkinsHokieFan]

I can say with full certainity that without my good looks I wouldn't be where I am today

And to be much more serious, I do think being in shape and dressing well gives me an advantage when I walk into some of the meetings I gotta go into.

Apperance does matter, for men and women

[Forehead]

Like I said, Ashley Judd might not be the best person to make this point, but her point is still valid. Now, can we move on and discuss what she actually had to say instead of falling back on ad hominem attacks on the writer?

I think we're generally on the same page here, and that yes, Ashley Judd isn't the right person to be taking this up. I'd have paid more attention if it was someone like Kathy Bates (mentioned earlier) who has enjoyed success despite not looking like "the norm" for Hollywood.

As for what she had to say...she's right, that's about all I can add. I'll be interested to see how others approach this with their teenage daughters, since mine is two years old and will start becoming more aware of the messages she's being bombarded with once she graduates from the Curious George stage of life.

[Koala]

Schwarzenegger was ripped mercilously by the tabloids for letting himself go somewhat.

I think when you throw yourself out there as a sex symbol, bets are off. Male or female.

...And he went on to become one of the most powerful politicians in the country. He was able to have a "post sex-symbol" life and be judged and respected for things besides his body. That doesnt happen with women.

[DjTj]

...And he went on to become one of the most powerful politicians in the country. He was able to have a "post sex-symbol" life and be judged and respected for things besides his body. That doesnt happen with women.

Schwarzenegger is a male Eva Peron. Famous actor/actress and sex symbol who married into a political family and then rose to power.

[Koala]

I can say with full certainity that without my good looks I wouldn't be where I am today

And to be much more serious, I do think being in shape and dressing well gives me an advantage when I walk into some of the meetings I gotta go into.

Apperance does matter, for men and women

Dressing well is a matter of professionalism, not a matter of misogynism..

The advantage of being "in shape" is probably more in your head, in terms of giving you confidence. The only study I ever seen that suggest that "physical appearance" is significantly important for men has to do with height -- taller men make more money. This has to do more with the caveman dominance sort of thing, which still exists in our society. Perhaps being more muscular does give you that same caveman advantage. But as a short guy myself, I still dont think that the amount of discrimination I might face is anywhere near in the same league as what women have to face in the workplace. So, yes appearances matter, but its not even in the same universe of importance as it is for women. Appearance for a man can give him a slight advantage. Appearance for a women often isnt just an advantage, its a requirement.

[Destino]

If she looked like her sister Wynonna would she have enjoyed anything close to the success she achieved?

And that supports what side of this debate? lol

[TheLongshot]

Dressing well is a matter of professionalism, not a matter of misogynism..

Except that it is harder for a woman to dress well. For men it is simple: suit and tie for formal/semi-formal, polos and khakis for business casual. Maybe some tailoring involved.

Women have to deal with arbitrary sizes that don't mean anything, fabric that more often than not requires dry cleaning for proper care, and shoes that are more often than not uncomfortable. (Moreso than men's dress shoes.)

The advantage of being "in shape" is probably more in your head, in terms of giving you confidence. The only study I ever seen that suggest that "physical appearance" is significantly important for men has to do with height -- taller men make more money. This has to do more with the caveman dominance sort of thing, which still exists in our society. Perhaps being more muscular does give you that same caveman advantage. But as a short guy myself, I still dont think that the amount of discrimination I might face is anywhere near in the same league as what women have to face in the workplace. So, yes appearances matter, but its not even in the same universe of importance as it is for women. Appearance for a man can give him a slight advantage. Appearance for a women often isnt just an advantage, its a requirement.

I do think being heavyset is a disadvantage for both sexes nowadays, tho it probably isn't as much for men.

[Dan T.]

Ashley Judd slaps media in the face? Won't that make media's face puffy?

[USS Redskins]

I, for one, prefer a woman with curves.... puffy curves are even better.

She looks great and not sure why anyone would criticize her.

Its odd that all those fashion magazines run by women are the most discriminating.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

This misses the point again though because she's not lashing out because her feelings are hurt because of what was said or written, she's using her experience as a case study to criticize the misogyny (other the other word she used which is when both men and women participate) which is imbedded into our society and becomes most notable in discussions about Jessica Simpson's pregnancy weight gain et al. It is evidence of the further objectification of the human body both male and female.

What she said, was this:

The only thing that matters is how I feel about myself, my personal integrity, and my relationship with my Creator. Of course, it’s wonderful to be held in esteem and fond regard by family, friends, and community, but a central part of my spiritual practice is letting go of otheration. And casting one’s lot with the public is dangerous and self-destructive, and I value myself too much to do that.

That's fine...but then goes on to say this:

However, the recent speculation and accusations in March feel different, and my colleagues and friends encouraged me to know what was being said. Consequently, I choose to address it because the conversation was pointedly nasty, gendered, and misogynistic and embodies what all girls and women in our culture, to a greater or lesser degree, endure every day, in ways both outrageous and subtle.

A few observations, if I may:

1) NOTHING written about her "puffy face" was any more "nasty, gendered and misogynistic" than anything else being said about any OTHER female celebrity. So what was it about THIS particular drivel that made her stand up and take notice?...Right--it was about her. So I would imagine her feelings/emotions played a role in how she reacted to reading these comments about herself.

2) If she truly does value herself too much to let "otheration" into her life and mess with her spiritual well-being, why the hell are her friends and colleagues encouraging that she do otherwise? lol...imagine if it were alcohol instead of "otheration" that she had banished from her life:

Ashley: "I long ago stopped drinking, it harmed my spiritual self and led to nothing but negativity."

Friend/Colleague: "That's great!...But you reallllly should try this new vodka! It's incredible."

I do see that this thread has grown to 4 pages, so I'm assuming that points I've brought up have also been brought up by others, so there's no real need to go into it further. Her points do have merit, but that shouldn't mean she's immune from some criticism herself, especially since she utilized her younger, tighter, sexier, non-puffy body and face to help propel her acting career.

Because when she says something like this:

I hope the sharing of my thoughts can generate a new conversation: Why was a puffy face cause for such a conversation in the first place? How, and why, did people participate?

It would have been extraordinary if she at least acknowledged her own role in how a "puffy face" could end up a topic of conversation. By willingly posing in hundreds of promotional photos that all say "Look how beautiful and sexy I am", it will by default open up the exact opposite conversation somewhere down the line...and let's be honest, Ashley Judd knew full well what the goal of all those photos were gonna be.

Because photos like this:

Do NOT say "Don't judge me on my appearance" lol...

[renaissance]

Except that it is harder for a woman to dress well. For men it is simple: suit and tie for formal/semi-formal, polos and khakis for business casual. Maybe some tailoring involved.

Women have to deal with arbitrary sizes that don't mean anything, fabric that more often than not requires dry cleaning for proper care, and shoes that are more often than not uncomfortable. (Moreso than men's dress shoes.)

If you are a man, thank you so much for understanding this.

[Predicto]

I do see that this thread has grown to 4 pages, so I'm assuming that points I've brought up have also been brought up by others, so there's no real need to go into it further. Her points do have merit, but that shouldn't mean she's immune from some criticism herself, especially since she utilized her younger, tighter, sexier, non-puffy body and face to help propel her acting career.

Maybe she is a bit wiser since then. Or maybe she did what she had to do to back then have an acting career in the first place.

Either way, there seems to be a major effort here to shoot the messenger, IMO. :whoknows:

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Maybe she is a bit wiser since then. Or maybe she did what she had to do to back then have an acting career in the first place.

Either way, there seems to be a major effort here to shoot the messenger, IMO. :whoknows:

If she's grown wiser, then that wisdom should include her acknowledging her own role in the muck she's criticizing now. That would be true wisdom, and would go MUCH further towards her points she's wanting to make.

And Ashley Judd is far more than a mere messenger...she's a participant.

[DjTj]

In the tailgate (for some) men & women are equally treated in this fashion, blacks & whites suffer equal discrimination, and CNN is equally crazy & biased as Fox News, etc. The idea that extremely relevant variance in degrees of such things (God forbid we even begin to approach a concept like "nuance", which is far removed from what i'm addressing) is well worth noting and easily (if the prefrontal cortex is actually working) acknowledged.

I don't think people really think that all things are equal. There seems to be a feeling of victimization when there is a perception that one side is being ignored. The goal of pointing out the "other side" does not seem to be an argument that all suffering is equal but only an attempt to rebalance a debate that feels imbalanced.

I think internet forums really encourage people to fall strongly on one side of the debate or the other, and it leads to overreaching. And it happens on both sides of the issue. I think it is silly to suggest that men are judged on their appearance at anywhere near the same level that women are, but I also think that Judd is overreacting a little bit in her column. And people in this thread taking here side are pushing it further than is really justified in this context. Looks matter, and they matter more for women, but it can be both an asset and an impediment, and Ashley Judd is an example of that. That's a very fair criticism of her here.

I don't think we're ever going to get to a society where beauty doesn't matter, and I don't think we want to get there. I don't think we really want to get to a society where we see men and women as completely the same either. Physical beauty shouldn't matter in areas where it doesn't matter, but there will continue to be areas where it does, and the entertainment world is one of those.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I don't think we're ever going to get to a society where beauty doesn't matter, and I don't think we want to get there. I don't think we really want to get to a society where we see men and women as completely the same either. Physical beauty shouldn't matter in areas where it doesn't matter, but there will continue to be areas where it does, and the entertainment world is one of those.

I can imagine it now...

Man, hiking in mountains: "My God, these trees are beautiful..."

Tree: "What, is that all I am to you? I provide shade! I provide syrup! I provide shelter! Hell, I even provide you oxygen, you ungrateful ****! And all you can do is notice my looks?!?!"

[RVAbrendan]

With all this gender equality talk, I figured we could turn to Dr. Steve Brule for his take on gender relations!

[AsburySkinsFan]

What she said, was this:

That's fine...but then goes on to say this:

But she also said....

This abnormal obsession with women’s faces and bodies has become so normal that we (I include myself at times—I absolutely fall for it still) have internalized patriarchy almost seamlessly. We are unable at times to identify ourselves as our own denigrating abusers, or as abusing other girls and women.

A few observations, if I may:

1) NOTHING written about her "puffy face" was any more "nasty, gendered and misogynistic" than anything else being said about any OTHER female celebrity. So what was it about THIS particular drivel that made her stand up and take notice?...Right--it was about her. So I would imagine her feelings/emotions played a role in how she reacted to reading these comments about herself.

It absolutely is, what's more is that the discussion wasn't ONLY about her "puffy face" but the continued discussion about work that she "must have had done" on her face.

2) If she truly does value herself too much to let "otheration" into her life and mess with her spiritual well-being, why the hell are her friends and colleagues encouraging that she do otherwise? lol...imagine if it were alcohol instead of "otheration" that she had banished from her life:

Because she being the target of their misogyny which allows her the opportunity to respond and address the underlying themes regarding the superficial nature of our society that picks women apart based upon certain preconceived notions of beauty...BTW a size 4 is NOT puffy.

Do NOT say "Don't judge me on my appearance" lol...

And yet an insider's voice is often valued most highly because they understand more than anyone else the damage that has been done and how they at times played a role in it as well. And all the while your entire post attacked the messenger, seriously converts are some of the biggest advocates against the sins they once committed, and the attack the messenger is the retort of a 14 year old saying, "Yeah well Grandma said you used to do it, so who are you to say I shouldn't." She's learned, and now she wants to change things, but you would rather criticize her for her past rather than appreciate what she's saying now.

[Koala]

I don't think we're ever going to get to a society where beauty doesn't matter, and I don't think we want to get there. I don't think we really want to get to a society where we see men and women as completely the same either. Physical beauty shouldn't matter in areas where it doesn't matter, but there will continue to be areas where it does, and the entertainment world is one of those.

Is Ashley Judd no longer a beautiful woman? Of course not, she still is and noone would argue otherwise. Then why is the entertainment world obsessing over a miniscule weight gain that doesnt even make her significantly less attractive? Thats misogynism dude, obssessing over the most minor of flaws that an untrained eye cannot detect -- as if women were racehorses for sale.

[AsburySkinsFan]

I can imagine it now...

Man, hiking in mountains: "My God, these trees are beautiful..."

Tree: "What, is that all I am to you? I provide shade! I provide syrup! I provide shelter! Hell, I even provide you oxygen, you ungrateful ****! And all you can do is notice my looks?!?!"

See there you go again on your adventures in missing the point. This isn't about seeing beauty in people, this is about looking at the same mountain view and saying, "Wow, this would be really pretty if we changed the entire look of this view, and got some skinnier and taller trees and some greener grass, and put some more snow on those mountains...hmmm...maybe even injected some silicone into the mountains to plump them up a bit more." Obviously, there is beauty in the world we'd be fools to deny that, but where we fail as a society is to see beauty in a certain few fictitious bodily characteristics rather than seeing beauty in life as a whole. We fail when beauty is defined as a perky co-ed or a MILF, or some stud.

[Koala]

See there you go again on your adventures in missing the point. This isn't about seeing beauty in people, this is about looking at the same mountain view and saying, "Wow, this would be really pretty if we changed the entire look of this view, and got some skinnier and taller trees and some greener grass, and put some more snow on those mountains...hmmm...maybe even injected some silicone into the mountains to plump them up a bit mo-re." Obviously, there is beauty in the world we'd be fools to deny that, but where we fail as a society is to see beauty in a certain few fictitious bodily characteristics rather than seeing beauty in life as a whole. We fail when beauty is defined as a perky co-ed or a MILF, or some stud.

And we particularly fail when a 115 pound women is considered one of the most beautiful women, yet that same woman at 125 pounds is somehow suddenly unattractive and should be castigated for letting herself go. Thats not really even about beauty anymore, thats about control.

[AsburySkinsFan]

And we particularly fail when a 115 pound women is considered one of the most beautiful women, yet that same woman at 125 pounds is somehow suddenly unattractive and should be castigated for letting herself go. That's not really even about beauty anymore, that's about control.

Exactly. Not to mention what's done to images in magazines etc. The standard used to judge women today doesn't even exist anywhere in reality, which is why the whole thing is absurd.