Ellis Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-02-16/italy-to-end-tax-breaks-on-church-enterprises-monti-says.html Feb. 16 (Bloomberg) -- Prime Minister Mario Monti plans an amendment to an Italian law that will force the Catholic Church to pay taxes on all its commercial properties, according to a statement posted late yesterday on the government’s website. The church currently pays property tax only on buildings designated as “purely commercial,” based on an Italian law originating 20 years ago and extended in 2006. The wording is ambiguous when it comes to clinics that have a chapel or monasteries that offer bed and breakfast accommodation. The Catholic Church owns about 100,000 properties in Italy, a third of which are commercial, according to the Italian Radical Party, which historically has challenged the church. Italy would gain an additional 100 million euros ($130 million) from increasing levies on the church to include all its commercial property, Paolo Berdini, an urban planner and consultant for local administrations, said in an interview last month. The Vatican reported a profit of 9.8 million euros ($12.7 million) in 2010 after three years of losses during the recession. EU Probe Following a complaint by the Radical Party, European Union regulators opened a probe in 2010 into Italian tax breaks on real estate granted to the Catholic Church, saying they may distort competition. The outcome of the investigation will be made public by next month and if the decision goes against Italy, the EU could order the country to pay a fine and to demand that the church reimburse the government for unpaid taxes of the last five years, the secretary of the Radical Party, Mario Staderini, said in an interview in Rome on Dec. 21. Monti has informed European Union Competition Commissioner Joaquin Almunia of his decision to overhaul the rule and hopes “the government’s initiative will allow the European Commission to close the procedure,” according to the statement. Monti served as the EU’s competition commissioner from 1999 to 2004. While the world has gone through financial struggles, some countries feeling the pain more than others, it has always been in the back of my mind that eventually someone would suggest a move on the church. I wonder how much money would be generated in the USA if commercial property owned by churches were taxed like other commercial property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 From their lips to our god-fearers ears. :pfft: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teller Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I wonder how much money would be generated in the USA if commercial property owned by churches were taxed like other commercial property. I suspect we're going to see quite a few flips on church-state separation in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 @##$!! OBAMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ~!Blarg! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Sounds fine to me, though I'd like to see them create a way to keep tax breaks on funds from the church allocated strictly for helping the poor. I imagine that some churches will use that as a defense against this proposal though, claiming that those services will go away because of taxation, while disguising the fact that some funds are used on what could be considered extravagancies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 There is no way to assess the value of the Catholic Church's property in Italy. I would be like trying to put a price tag on the moon. That's why they came up with a nice round E100 million figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadySkinsFan Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 We should be taxing commercial properties owned by religious organizations and take away tax exemptions from those religious organizations that are involved in any political activity, not just for endorsing any specific politician. This would go a long way to solving our budget problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 We should be taxing commercial properties owned by religious organizations and take away tax exemptions from those religious organizations that are involved in any political activity, not just for endorsing any specific politician.This would go a long way to solving our budget problems. I don't have an issue with this. Fact is, many churches are BIG business and should be taxed as such. I also liked the above idea about exempting funds that go directly to community involvement/helping the poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rictus58 Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I don't have an issue with this. Fact is, many churches are BIG business and should be taxed as such. I also liked the above idea about exempting funds that go directly to community involvement/helping the poor. I have a problem with it. Many churches will cease to exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadySkinsFan Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I have a problem with it. Many churches will cease to exist. Then I guess their faith wouldn't be working too well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I have a problem with it. Many churches will cease to exist. God's will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenspandan Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 i agree with this. it's high time we let the invisible hand of the free market duke it out with the invisible hand of the creator. two mythical conservative fictions engaged in epic battle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I have a problem with it. Many churches will cease to exist. I seriously doubt that. I used to be a business consultant, and I worked with between 20-25 churches. A church is a business like a casino. No product walks out the door. People walk in, deposit money in exchange for nothing tangible, and leave. If a church can't afford to pay taxes on the building, either it is incredibly poorly managed (which is often the case), or bought too much building. MOST churches do just fine. A LOT of churches make more on Sunday than a Wal-Mart, and that is not an exaggeration, I've seen the deposits from both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Jimmy Carter tried something along these lines when he was President,and overnight the Christian Left became the Christian Right. Anyone really think it's a coincidence that the Moral Majority org was formed right after Carter pushed for reexamining the exempt status of church enterprises and endorsed Reagan whose main platform was tax cuts (despite the fact that CA under his leadership made abortion legal BEFORE the Roe v Wade verdict). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rictus58 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I seriously doubt that. I used to be a business consultant, and I worked with between 20-25 churches. A church is a business like a casino. No product walks out the door. People walk in, deposit money in exchange for nothing tangible, and leave. If a church can't afford to pay taxes on the building, either it is incredibly poorly managed (which is often the case), or bought too much building. MOST churches do just fine. A LOT of churches make more on Sunday than a Wal-Mart, and that is not an exaggeration, I've seen the deposits from both. I'll have to conceed the point to you (no snark intended). You have more knowledge than I. I just look around my (roman catholic) church on a sunday. It's small. Full of older parishoners....who likely won't be around in 10 years. Pews aren't packed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I seriously doubt that. I used to be a business consultant, and I worked with between 20-25 churches. A church is a business like a casino. No product walks out the door. People walk in, deposit money in exchange for nothing tangible, and leave. If a church can't afford to pay taxes on the building, either it is incredibly poorly managed (which is often the case), or bought too much building. MOST churches do just fine. A LOT of churches make more on Sunday than a Wal-Mart, and that is not an exaggeration, I've seen the deposits from both. I believe a Casino is a horrible example. I might be a heathen, but the church up the street i take my kids to do a TON of work for the community. The Pastor is in hosptals,, bringing food the hungry and old, driving kids to school, fixing the neighbors roof and thats just what i've seen.. Put a ramp on the house 3 doors down for the old vietnam vet in the wheelchair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I believe a Casino is a horrible example.I might be a heathen, but the church up the street i take my kids to do a TON of work for the community. The Pastor is in hosptals,, bringing food the hungry and old, driving kids to school, fixing the neighbors roof and thats just what i've seen.. Put a ramp on the house 3 doors down for the old vietnam vet in the wheelchair. Why is a casino a horrible example? The business model is almost exactly the same. The church may do OTHER THINGS outside in the community which give everyone a warm and fuzzy feeling, but both businesses involve people walking in the door, giving away their money in exchange for something that is not tangible (the "fun of gambling" versus "eternal salvation"), and then they leave. Both are even tax write off's for the donors. Neither business produces anything, sells any inventory, or otherwise adds economic benefit. Both are a great racket to be in if you have any biz management experience, which casino's do and churches usually dont. This goes back to a post i made years ago that if i were to start a business, I would start a for-profit church. http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?222886-If-you-had-100k-startup-capital-what-biz-would-you-start&p=4474916&viewfull=1#post4474916 From 2007 My idea is to open a for-profit church. Church is big business, but too many are run by people with no biz experience and unfortunately, while their hearts are in the right place, they dont know what they are doing running a complicated operation.Running a church like a real business would be great. A large-scale church that can seat 1000+ and hold multiple services per day would rake the money in. And its ALL profit. No product walks out the door, people come in, listen, give money, and leave. Its like casino's. There IS no inventory. Ever been to a nice wedding around here? The places like Raspberry Falls and Landowne rent out for $5,000 JUST FOR THE LOCATION. That doesnt include ANY of the other **** that people have to buy (which I would also have my hands in). The average cost of a wedding around here is something like $40,000 and all the stuff is ridiculously overpriced because, well, brides are ****ing nuts. You know what else is crazy expensive around here? Daycare. Who wouldnt want to have their kids go to church for daycare? Hire a teacher or 2 with a masters in education for some credibility and a coupla college interns for the afternoons and BAM, a coupla rooms and a playground become a gold mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 It will never happen here. Our politics simply won't allow it at this point. But I think it is a perfectly reasonable idea and I would be for it, though I do like elkabong's idea regarding breaks for funds that go towards things like helping the poor, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Why is a casino a horrible example? The business model is almost exactly the same. The church may do OTHER THINGS outside in the community which give everyone a warm and fuzzy feeling, but both businesses involve people walking in the door, giving away their money in exchange for something that is not tangible (the "fun of gambling" versus "eternal salvation"), and then they leave. Both are even tax write off's for the donors. Neither business produces anything, sells any inventory, or otherwise adds economic benefit. Both are a great racket to be in if you have any biz management experience, which casino's do and churches usually dont. This goes back to a post i made years ago that if i were to start a business, I would start a for-profit church.http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?222886-If-you-had-100k-startup-capital-what-biz-would-you-start&p=4474916&viewfull=1#post4474916 From 2007 The Churches get a tax credit because they are supposed to help people? That sounds like a good tangible reason. (they used to do more but not allowed to have cookouts and other things the gov't took over) So maybe a partial tax Reading that old post: The church up the street did start a school with 1 teacher with a PHD. though it looks like a Daycare? You don't run lighthouse baptist do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 The Churches get a tax credit because they are supposed to help people?That sounds like a good tangible reason. Please read post #7. We arent talking about taxing a churches income. We are talking about making them pay their property taxes like all other businesses and homeowners. Big difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam@section118 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 We should be taxing commercial properties owned by religious organizations and take away tax exemptions from those religious organizations that are involved in any political activity, not just for endorsing any specific politician.This would go a long way to solving our budget problems. No it wouldnt. It they made 100B more, they would spend 200B more. Besides that, I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 The tax exemption of a church is not due to any charitable activity it may perform. The IRS describes what constitutes an eligible nonprofit religious group. "A tax-exempt religious organization is a legal entity or vehicle created and operated exclusively for religious purposes, no part of the net earnings of which insures to the benefit of any private individual, no substantial part of the activities of which is carrying on propaganda, or otherwise attempting to influence legislation, and which does not participate in or interfere in any political campaign on behalf of any candidate for public office." This leads to a couple of questions ... Should the government be supporting religious promotion any more or any less than they might similarly not tax an organization to promoting youth golf? Is the IRs properly scrutinizing the minority of churches whose founders and their families make millions and fly private planes? IRS please send any pastor a tax bill and notice of revocation of their 501c3 status if they comment in favor of one candidate or party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I think what I might like to see is churches get taxed on property, but get a deduction for every community work they produce. So, feed or shelter the homeless and they pay less. Pay out a scholarship or help out a widow or provide x hours in a hospital, medical. center or rec center and the tax bill goes down. In other words, the more godly works they do (and preaching or giving sermons doesn't count) the less in tax they pay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I think what I might like to see is churches get taxed on property, but get a deduction for every community work they produce. So, feed or shelter the homeless and they pay less. Pay out a scholarship or help out a widow or provide x hours in a hospital, medical. center or rec center and the tax bill goes down. In other words, the more godly works they do (and preaching or giving sermons doesn't count) the less in tax they pay Deducted from just property tax? Or property and income tax? Because if it's the former, your proposal would have no impact. If it's the later, then we are talking about taxing a churches income, which seems harsh even for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Deducted from just property tax? Or property and income tax? Because if it's the former, your proposal would have no impact. If it's the later, then we are talking about taxing a churches income, which seems harsh even for me. I wouldn't mind both. In my book, if a church, synagogue, mosque, or whatever is truly putting most of its time, efforts, and money into doing good works for the community then it deserves to be tax free. However, if the religious inst is hoarding it's resources and living the life of Riley while ignoring spiritual and physical suffering than tax the heck out of them. I fear there are too many religious businesses masquerading as churches these days and Mega churches disturb me on many levels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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