Burgold Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 I can't help noticing that two of the biggest turnarounds and successes in the league this year seem to be be the 49ers and Tebow's Broncos. From what I understand, Tebow is practically playing a brand of football not seen in the NFL since the 1930's... and it's working. Likewise, the 49ers are a running team, a hard running team. On the flip side, the Redskins are running for about 30 yards a game over the last five losses. Now, some of that is by choice and some of it is because we fall behind or have no line to create holes (or worse, our running backs are missing holes and cutbacks), but one can ask if the failure of the Redskins is the reason many of these other teams are successful. Alex Smith was considered a bum and a bust before this year. Tebow only needs to throw a handful of times and complete two to get a win. I'm not saying we don't need a qb. I'm really not. I'm not saying we need better running backs. What I am saying is that we need to stop emphasizing our weaknesses in our game plans... oh, and as we reconstruct this team, we might consider that our line is even a bigger weakness than our quarterback (though not by much) Remember, with a good running game and a stout defense, Grossman was a Superbowl calibre quarterback. They say it's a passing league, but teams are showing that there is more than one way to skin the pigskin. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rook Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 I agree a running game is important, but I suspect more teams in the playoffs will have a very good passing game. I also expect Denver will not make the playoffs. :helmet: The Rook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaRonDontLikeUgly Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 The bottom line is that you have to be good at SOMETHING.... Doesn't really matter if it's rushing or passing.... Looking at the Division leaders right now: Giants: 5th in Passing Packers: 3rd in Passing Saints: 2nd in Passing Patriots: 1st in Passing Steelers: 7th in Passing 49ers: 7th in Rushing Texans: 3rd in Rushing Raiders: 4th in Rushing And as for Tebow and the Broncos as a team, I think the turnaround for the Redskins will be even quicker than the mess they have to clean up after Tasmanian Devil McDaniels blew through town. That team is screwed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70th Week Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Good points...what is funny is listening to all the talking heads frattle on about how Tebow and the Broncos are going to fall flat on their face cause, "no one can run 50 times a game and win.." LOL..yea right. "The Professor" said on espn yesterday that they are going to wear out their running backs...haha. And I'll say I'm a Tebow fan cause he is finding ways to get it done whether it's conventional or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible_Red40 Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 IMO, the 49ers have a pro bowl running back and a solid O-line built through the draft. They have a number 1 overall pick as a QB who finally has a coach who believes in him and can now build on stability. They also have skilled players to help this QB out. And a defense who smacks people around. This is much closer then giving the Broncos props. The way the Broncis play will catch up with them. People have not seen this offense on film, and teams will soon figure out how to stop it. Tebow has to learn to throw or he will be sitting on the bench soon. I can not believe a QB can keep succeeding with that kind of game plan. Dont get me wrong he is a "winner", a leader and seems like a good dude, but there is no way this 1930's brand of football will be able to keep up. Give the 9ers props, but lets not forget their defense is winning them games as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theTruthTeller Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 When you have an OL as bad as the Skins, its really hard to be good at running or passing. The problem is that the OL probably needs at least three positions filled and that doesn't jibe with the "we're one draft away from being good" mentality around here. Shanny really needs at least two drafts to have a functional offense. I'm a big Tebow fan, but that scheme won't work for long. As for SF, things are clicking now, but I don't know if any coach can survive they type of ineptitude required to gather the talent they did over the last 5 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paloosa Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Regardless if it is a pass happy league or a ground and pound the thing that makes these teams successful is they have good offensive lines, good QB's, Above average RB's, continuity and they are disciplined. Alex Smith is benefitting from all of that right now. Singletary and Nolan are defensive minded coaches and Harbaugh is offensive minded. What has changed in San Fran that made them this great team? They still have the same team as last year with exception of a few addition from the draft and FA. So what is different? Jim Harbaugh. That is the only difference in this 49er team and last years. In Denver the only difference is not that Tebow is starting but John Fox is using Tebows abilities and strengths to win games. Everyone says that this Tebow style offense will not be successful long term because the feeling is that people will start figuring it out and the offense will sputter. This comes from a guy like Steve Young, Mike Golic and many other analyst that have played football. But they base this all off history and not facts. In today's day of football and years before this many systems have been scrutinized by people like Young, Golic and many others but they are now apart of the game. Look at the passing game and the days of Air Coryle being said it would never work but that was disputed by Joe Gibbs using it here in Washington to win 3 Super Bowls. Look at the Father of the West Coast Offense, Bill Walsh and how many Super Bowls did he or his disciples yield. So until the Redskins get an identity of sorts again then they will still be searching for the football "Holy Grail." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwpanic Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 it's only going to take d-coordinators in this league another couple games to figure out tebow. you can't just not pass the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted November 17, 2011 Author Share Posted November 17, 2011 Regardless if it is a pass happy league or a ground and pound the thing that makes these teams successful is they have good offensive lines, good QB's, Above average RB's, continuity and they are disciplined. Alex Smith is benefitting from all of that right now. Singletary and Nolan are defensive minded coaches and Harbaugh is offensive minded. What has changed in San Fran that made them this great team? They still have the same team as last year with exception of a few addition from the draft and FA. So what is different? Jim Harbaugh. That is the only difference in this 49er team and last years. In Denver the only difference is not that Tebow is starting but John Fox is using Tebows abilities and strengths to win games. Everyone says that this Tebow style offense will not be successful long term because the feeling is that people will start figuring it out and the offense will sputter. This comes from a guy like Steve Young, Mike Golic and many other analyst that have played football. But they base this all off history and not facts. In today's day of football and years before this many systems have been scrutinized by people like Young, Golic and many others but they are now apart of the game. Look at the passing game and the days of Air Coryle being said it would never work but that was disputed by Joe Gibbs using it here in Washington to win 3 Super Bowls. Look at the Father of the West Coast Offense, Bill Walsh and how many Super Bowls did he or his disciples yield. So until the Redskins get an identity of sorts again then they will still be searching for the football "Holy Grail." Good post... following is not good leading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Hog Heaven Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Neither Denver nor the '9ers will go far in the playoffs (if Denver even got there which I highly doubt they will); with the one dimensional offense's they both have. Tebow's a gimmick that won't last. Smith is the very definition of mediocre who's currently limiting his mistakes and letting the run game and D carry his team. When that dry's up, so will San Francisco who are far from a top team. Why the boneheaded OC has gotten away from the run so badly this year you'd have to ask him. He's not just gotten away from it, he's more or less completely ignoring it. And it's not like we have a passing attack to fall back on. Hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikie Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 it's only going to take d-coordinators in this league another couple games to figure out tebow. you can't just not pass the ball. I think you just have to tune in tonight to see this... though I'd love to see tebow run roughshod over feety ryan, I think it's going to be an offensive goose-egg.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santana_4_prez Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 I could see Denver winning about 1 more game the rest of the season. They've gotten pretty lucky and just a matter of time before D coordinators figure it out. And San Fran is winning because of their defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No_Pressure Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Everybody talks about how to league is a "passing league" these days. I know it is the case in terms of whats going on with NFL offenses and teams, but I have not and will not accept that you need to be a good pass first team to win. I feel like any team that puts together a big offensive line that plays with a mean streak, has a tough running back who can power his ways to those 4 yards you need on every carry, and has a group of WR's and a QB that are competent enough to run play action is a team that will win a lot of football games. I think a huge part of it is finding players who have that tough, mean, "smash the other team's face in" mentality. Of course that mentality goes for both sides of the football. I wanted us to draft Patrick Willis so badly when he came out in the draft. Instead we took LaRon Landry...eh...Peterson and Revis were on the board also and we had a star FS but whatever. We're mainly a soft team with soft players. We have been for some time. Teams used to be afraid to play the hogs because they knew they were going to be physically mauled for a few hours. What about our team scares anybody? I'll go one step further and say that Joe Gibbs' offense is not obsolete. When we went 10-6 in 2005 everybody said that was the maximum potential of that offense in today's NFL. I think it was the maximum potential of that average roster of players we had assembled. I think that run heavy football is still a very real way to win in the NFL and it always will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Good points...what is funny is listening to all the talking heads frattle on about how Tebow and the Broncos are going to fall flat on their face cause, "no one can run 50 times a game and win.." LOL..yea right. "The Professor" said on espn yesterday that they are going to wear out their running backs...haha.And I'll say I'm a Tebow fan cause he is finding ways to get it done whether it's conventional or not. Nah it's not Tebow who is finding a way to get it done, John Fox is finding a way to work around Tebows limitations and get it done. He had 2 completions last week. Defensive co-ordinations will adjust to take away the running attack and force Tebow to throw and he just is not able to do that at the NFL level. The objective is not to try to work around limited players maximising their talents so you can scrape a few wins, it's to challenge for a Super Bowl. I would contend you can't do that if you have a QB who you only trust enough to let him throw it 5 or 6 times a game. As to the OP I think you can win in the modern NFL with a run heavy attack but even the 49ers throw it 28 times a game. You need a passing attack which can get you chunk plays and keep the defense honest or make them pay for stacking the box against the run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 I feel like any team that puts together a big offensive line that plays with a mean streak, has a tough running back who can power his ways to those 4 yards you need on every carry, and has a group of WR's and a QB that are competent enough to run play action is a team that will win a lot of football games. I think your right, such a team would win a lot of games. Perhaps as many as ten every year and be in the playoffs consistently. However when you get to the playoffs and you are playing elite teams who can put up a lot of points your run heavy attack will struggle to keep pace and I don't think you will be winning championships. If you have a historically good defense like the 2000 Ravens maybe you get away with it but if your playing say a Green Bay like team you leave your offense simply no margin for error and you just can't fall behind or you are screwed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justice98 Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Of the 8 division leaders, 7 of them are in the top 10 in passing offense (San Fran being the exception to the rule). Only 4 of the division leaders are in the top 10 in rushing offense. You still need a QB in this league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No_Pressure Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 I think your right, such a team would win a lot of games. Perhaps as many as ten every year and be in the playoffs consistently. However when you get to the playoffs and you are playing elite teams who can put up a lot of points your run heavy attack will struggle to keep pace and I don't think you will be winning championships. If you have a historically good defense like the 2000 Ravens maybe you get away with it but if your playing say a Green Bay like team you leave your offense simply no margin for error and you just can't fall behind or you are screwed. You could also say that a great running team could come out, control the clock, complete long scoring drives, take the lead, and rush the passer on the other side. If the other team is intent on passing and scoring quickly and you control the clock and keep the football in the hands of your offense it stops teams from going up big on you. We saw this with Joe Gibbs when he came back, the only problem was the pack of losers we had on this team always found ways to give up and lose by just a few points in the 4th quarter, while his teams in the 80's (the ones that had actual great players on them) managed to close out games. Look at the 49ers this season though. With the exception of the Cowboys loss they've managed to run the ball, control the clock, and get the win late in the game. -They beat Cincinnati by 5 points -They beat Philadelphia by 1 point -They beat Detroit by 6 points -They beat Cleveland by 10 points -They beat us by 8 points -They beat New York by 7 points 6 games they won by 10 points or less. Playing against Detroit you would think that a pass happy offense that moves the ball rather quickly would of course take a huge lead on them and just run away with it before SF could get back into the game. Detroit went up 10-0 in the 1st quarter. SF just kept controlling the ball and running. In the 2nd quarter they scored 12 points of their own as they chipped away at the Detroit defense. They managed to ride that lead to the end of the game, Detroit got desperate and made mistakes. Of course San Francisco has a great defense which helps tremendously but I guarantee that if they were trying to pass as much as they run they wouldn't be 8-1. They're winning games because they're controlling the pace and tone of the game from start to finish, just like Joe Gibbs used to do. Unlike our teams however SF has talent and is closing out games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHolt Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 It seems you need to dominate in some facet on offense. That some teams pull it off by running, seems inconsequential. Where the stud running team will struggle, is when their defense inevitably gets lit up early in a game, something largely out of their control. Comebacks are largely pass based, and defintely late in games on that final drive. I used to think a good balance of running and passing was important, and it still may be. But teams must be built to defeat all teams, including a high powered offense, and sometimes the best ways to fight fire is with fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USS Redskins Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Its an interesting point but I would guess the passing teams will bury the running teams in the playoffs. Look at the last few years of playoff contenders and their QB's passing yards - all of them passed over or near 4000 yards. If you dont have a big gun under center, you can still do fairly well but wont win any championships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead36 Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 The problem with the "run the ball and play D" philosophy is that your margin of error is razor thin. If you fall behind early for whatever reason it becomes very difficult to catch up. This is why Marty's teams always lost in the playoffs. Someone brought up the 80s Skins, but those teams had awesome passing attacks with a HOF WR in Art Monk, another WR in Gary Clark who is arguably a HOF-er, and a third in Ricky Sanders who was damn good in his own right. We also had the Hogs blocking so whoever we had at QB could sling it around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointyfootball Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Of course San Francisco has a great defense which helps tremendously but I guarantee that if they were trying to pass as much as they run they wouldn't be 8-1. They're winning games because they're controlling the pace and tone of the game from start to finish, just like Joe Gibbs used to do. Unlike our teams however SF has talent and is closing out games. I personally feel San Fran will be bye-week team that will lose in their first playoff game. UNLESS, Smith has progressed to where he can be "the man". In the playoffs defenses do their best to make you one dimensional. IMO, stopping/slowing Frank Gore will put a lot of pressure on Smith, and I don't think he's come that far. JMO. Reason it's a passing league is the officiating has been geared to make passing easier for the offense, and even tougher for the defense to defend. At several points in the playoffs, QBs will have to make plays, hence the reason game-managers rarely win Super Bowls (since 2000 IMO). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rookieskin Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 It all starts and end the TRENCHES. Do you think that it is coincidence that our DL is pretty good and our D is pretty good and that our OL is atrocious and our Offense is non-existance? We don't have the OL to allow us to RUN or PASS so we PUNT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoVaSkins21 Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 I agree a running game is important, but I suspect more teams in the playoffs will have a very good passing game.I also expect Denver will not make the playoffs. :helmet: The Rook Exactly, come playoff time, teams with a good passing game will flourish. Teams with a good run game will probably become one dimensional if their opposition starts stacking the box. This is why having a good and probably great QB matters. Denver, if they make it, will get crushed. This is why the Skins suck. Their QBs don't scare anybody. Their running game gets stuffed because teams just stack the box and defenses force Beck or Grossman to beat them which they can't do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
authentic Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 I still think that QB is our top priority, but i agree with the OP, you won't go anywhere in this league with a subpar Oline. IMO QB is 1a and Oline 1b in regards to our offseason priorities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COWBOY-KILLA- Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Burgold, while I agree you always should have a powerful running game, the Packers have laughed in the face of conventional wisdom while passing their way to a Super Bowl championship and up till now an undefeated season. QB's dominate this league, how many Super Bowl teams over the last ten years have had a elite/real good passing game? Just off the top Brady, Manning (2), Breeze, Rodgers, Roethlisberger. I think the running game is a bit overrated these days. Don't get me wrong you still need a running game but it's significance is no longer paramount with a great passing game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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