The Argument: Starting John Beck Would Give Us a Good Shot at Winning the Division

[fancrazyskin]

There is a lot of football left this isn't week 12 when starting a new quarterback won't make much of a difference. Do we have a shoot of win the division? Who knows but the way that the rest of the division foes are playing why not.

[No_Pressure]

Were we 3-1 because of Rex, or in spite of Rex? If you look at the games we played objectively we have the Giants game where our defense was lights out in the 2nd half, scored the go-ahead touchdown and repeatedly gave our offense the ball back in decent field position. Rex did his part so we didn't win in spite of him, however we did not win solely because of his play.

In the Cardinals game we almost lost because of him and his turnovers. He made up for it with his late touchdown and putting together a decent drive to get us in field goal position for the go ahead score, but our defense was the reason we managed to get into that position in the first place, not to mention they forced a turnover on the Cardinal's last drive which won the game for us once and for all. I would give the edge in that game to the defense vs. Rex and I really think we won that game in spite of him. His production in that game was the type of production you could expect from many quarterbacks in the league. We did not win because of him.

In the Dallas game we almost won in spite of him, our defense played great but I wouldn't say that we lost because of Rex. He had his mistakes but our running game was shut down entirely. I don't think you can blame either side but he had a chance to win the game for us late and he turned the ball over.

In the Rams game we almost lost because of Rex's carelessness with the ball on his 2nd INT. You can't put the first one on him, but he made a dumb decision which resulted in turning the ball over in our own territory late in a game when we had a comfortable lead. Luckily we had a running game that week and our defense continued to play great under pressure. We won the Rams game in spite of Rex Grossman.

In the game yesterday I think its pretty clear that we lost because of Rex's carelessness with the ball. I like that he takes shots, I really do, but he hasn't looked as good this year as I know he has been at points in his career throwing the ball. I think that everybody around here downplayed the shape he was in- he clearly came to camp fat and even now isn't in good football shape. I think it has affected his ability to throw the ball with strength. Look at that interception on the deep ball to Gaffney. I felt that our WR's were a big part of the problem in the Rams game, but our WR's were getting open yesterday. If Grossman has the arm strength he had coming out of college on his deep ball, that is a huge touchdown play to Gaffney, and considering how we held the Eagles to 0 points in the 2nd half I think we could have easily tied the game late in the 4th. Rex has been floating passes all season. He doesn't have a fast bullet, which isn't a huge deal if you have great timing and accuracy like Chad Pennington had while healthy years ago, but Grossman never had amazing accuracy and sure as hell has questionable decision making skills.

Every game he has played this season has been a steady and noticeable decline from the one before it. 300 yards and 2 touchdowns turns into 250 yards 2 TD's, 2 INT's, which turns into 250 yards 0 TD's 1 INT, which turns into 150 yards, 1 TD, 2 INT's, which turns into 150 yards 0 TD's, 4 INT's.

It is obvious something is wrong with him and he is not capable of leading this team to victory. As evidenced by some of our games this season however, we have the kind of defense where even if we don't score 30 points, as long as we control the ball, don't turn it over and make big mistakes, run well and control the clock we can win games.

I don't see Beck as a world beater quarterback, I see him more as the alternative to Jay Schroeder 2.0. I think he will make fewer mistakes than Rex, and put up as many or more points as Rex which, considering how we have lost 2 games by a combined total of 9 points this season would seem to be a massive difference.

I wouldn't fall in love with what we saw yesterday. Backup quarterbacks often look great coming in vs. a defense that prepared and executed for 3 quarters a specific game plan against a player with completely different attributes. Once teams have film of Beck we'll see what he's really made of. I doubt he will turn the ball over 4 times in one game during the entire course of this season however assuming he does get the start next week and remains the starter.

Lastly, I saw a lot of frustrated and downright angry Redskins fans yesterday. It is our fault if we don't temper our expectations properly. We jumped out to 3-1 and we expected that we were suddenly a playoff caliber team. I had hopes that we had turned a corner and would bury the Eagles (whom I still don't think are as talented as everybody believes they are) but we didn't turn a corner, we did the same thing we always do in a major game against a team that really needs the win. We're more talented than we were last year, and we're more comfortable in our defensive system. We are however in year 2 of what is likely a 3-4 year rebuilding plan. I expected us to be 8-8 going into pre-season and I still expect it today. We're going to have good games which are flashes of what we will likely be next season assuming we continue to make smart acquisitions and draft well. We're going to have bad games where the deficiencies of the team are painfully highlighted.

[WhoRUSupposed2Be]

Grossman has gotten progressively worse with each game:

QB ratings:

Game 1 - 110.5

Game 2 - 74.9

Game 3 - 77.5

Game 4 - 48.5

Game 5 - 23.7

Over the last three games, Rex has 2 TDs and 8 turnovers. This is clearly no longer the Rex Grossman that Shanahan saw over the span of the preseason. If this Rex had shown up in the preseason, we might have kept Clemens instead.

I agree wholeheatedly... I don't know what the hell is wrong with Grossman.

[ConcordNCSkinsFan]

I posted during the preaseason on one of the multiple Rex or Beck threads that Beck should be the starter. Grossman is just a less talented version of Jeff George. I don't think he has any leadership qualities and he absolutely regresses to his worse when in tough games. He's just a good practice player who the Shanahans have been duped into thinking was a capable starter in the NFL. Grossman gives me the same feel that Jeff George and Jay Schroeder did as Skins QB's in that he's more about his ego than the team. I'm not gonna sit up here and pretend that Beck is the answer but I believe he will be more about managing the game to help the team win than trying to make spectacular throws to prove his critics wrong.

[Oldfan]

Okay, so when I see good used in that context, right off the bat, I think better than a random average (which in this case would be a 25%).

I'd put us below 25%, unless Beck is better than I expect (and I suspect better than Shannahan expects or they would have started it from the start (or somebody else is steps in or up and changes the dynamic of the team)).

I'm not going to debate whether "good" in this context should be 25% or 35%, however I think most fans overrate the opposition because they are more keenly aware of their own team's deficiencies.

The Skins beat the Giants handily. The Giants got Justin Tuck back after that game. Haslett's bonehead call handed Dallas a win in their stadium. The Eagles hung on to win by seven on a day when our QB threw four INTs. If we can even marginally improve the QB position, we can handle those teams

[Smurf85]

I don't know why its so hard for you guys to understand. The Skins have two QBs that wouldn't make it on any other team in this league. There is no why we win the division with either of these QBs. A week ago I thought a little different and that was because of the defense. Well now after this week I can see our defense can't save this team.

[Passizle]

Yeah. I heard Ross Tucker this morning talking about Rex in that light. I was thinking that Ross has not viewed much game film on Rex. IMO, We have been winning by overcoming Rex's play, not because of it.

What I find puzzling is that Rex clearly looked better during the pre-season. When the real games started, he just looked lost.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

What I find puzzling is that Rex clearly looked better during the pre-season. When the real games started, he just looked lost.

I don't agree with that. I thought he looked very sharp in the Giants game. I also thought he played well for the final 3 quarters of the Cardinals game. So, he played 7 of 8 very strong quarters of football to start the year. My theory is that teams realized he wasn't going to hurt you deep or to the sideline and started defending the middle of the field. It's no coincidence (to me) that each of the next two games contained a MLB dropping right into Rex's sweet spot for easy INTs. Then there was yesterday's meltdown. I'm guessing that Rex hasn't changed, but that defenses just know the possible places that he can complete passes and are only worrying about defending those places.

[PeterMP]

I'm not going to debate whether "good" in this context should be 25% or 35%, however I think most fans overrate the opposition because they are more keenly aware of their own team's deficiencies.

The Skins beat the Giants handily. The Giants got Justin Tuck back after that game. Haslett's bonehead call handed Dallas a win in their stadium. The Eagles hung on to win by seven on a day when our QB threw four INTs. If we can even marginally improve the QB position, we can handle those teams

I live outside of Philly, don't listen to any DC sports radio, but get Philly stations and NYC stations so that's what I listen to the most.

I know plenty about the deficiencies in the Giants and the Eagles.

Despite those deficiencies, completely healthy they are better than us, and we are going forward w/o 2 starting OL, while those teams are getting healthier (at least NY and Philly).

(They'll get Cole (Their best front 7 player) back probably after their bye, and they'll likely get their stating LT (Jason Peters) and another OL (King Dunlap) back too.)

The Giants have already gotten healthier and/or found pretty good replacement players.

[Oldfan]

I don't know why its so hard for you guys to understand. The Skins have two QBs that wouldn't make it on any other team in this league. ...

What's hard for me to understand is why the Redskins didn't hire you to evaluate QBs. It would have saved us all a lot of trouble.

[Skinsinparadise]

I don't know why its so hard for you guys to understand. The Skins have two QBs that wouldn't make it on any other team in this league. There is no why we win the division with either of these QBs. A week ago I thought a little different and that was because of the defense. Well now after this week I can see our defense can't save this team.

You are being absolute about a subject that you or for that matter we don't know enough about to be absolute and that is, John Beck. How do any of us know enough to make definitive conclusions about what kind of player Beck is one way or another, he hasn't even started a regular game yet for the Skins.

[Oldfan]

I live outside of Philly, don't listen to any DC sports radio, but get Philly stations and NYC stations so that's what I listen to the most.

I know plenty about the deficiencies in the Giants and the Eagles.

Despite those deficiencies, completely healthy they are better than us, and we are going forward w/o 2 starting OL, while those teams are getting healthier (at least NY and Philly).

(They'll get Cole (Their best front 7 player) back probably after their bye, and they'll likely get their stating LT (Jason Peters) and another OL (King Dunlap) back too.)

The Giants have already gotten healthier and/or found pretty good replacement players.

The Eagles haven't floundered because Peters and Cole missed time (now granted, King Dunlap was a huge setback;)). They have floundered because they aren't a team. They have misfit talent on offense or defense.

The Giants are getting healthier, but they don't have that much talent to begin with. Our depth is better than theirs.

We can improve at the most important QB position; they can't.

[Enter Apotheosis]

I find myself frightened by the fact that I completely agree with Oldfan on this (or any) subject. Don't overrate our divisional opponents. If one of them gets genuinely hot down the stretch we'll have serious cause for concern but, with the way all of the NFC East teams have been playing so far, this division is wide open and even marginal improvement at the QB position could help us tremendously.

[ArmchairRedskin]

I'm encouraged by what I saw from Beck yesterday as much as I was dismayed by what I saw from Grossman. I think if we had put Beck in earlier we might have pulled that game out. I mean, he was off a little bit on his passes and he didn't hold on to the ball very well when he was running around back there, but on the whole he looked pretty good. Stallworth could have helped him out with that one catch. He absolutely should have caught that. It would have eased my mind somewhat in that I know that Beck has problems connecting with longer passes. TA made a really superb catch near the goal line, though.

I'm not sure whats up with Rex. As we all know he's gotten a little worse each week, until it all exploded in huge fireball of crap yesterday. Just a horrible display. His brain and reflexes are not on the same page. His brain is giving Rex's arm too much credit.

I'm 100% behind Beck starting next week. The team needs something. Beck is the unknown factor right now that could provide that something. I'm guessing the Coaches will also feel like Beck should be given a shot. Hopefully, anyway. I supported Rex coming out of preseason, but now I would be really disappointed if he started next week.

[Oldfan]

I find myself frightened by the fact that I completely agree with Oldfan on this (or any) subject.

Damn, EA agrees. I wonder where I went wrong.

[War Paint]

I don't know why its so hard for you guys to understand. The Skins have two QBs that wouldn't make it on any other team in this league. There is no why we win the division with either of these QBs. A week ago I thought a little different and that was because of the defense. Well now after this week I can see our defense can't save this team.

I'm tired of speculating. I want to see Beck with my own two eyes over the span of several games before I say he is or isn't good enough. We've seen it with Rex. I want to see what Beck has.

[Chump Bailey]

I'm tired of speculating. I want to see Beck with my own two eyes over the span of several games before I say he is or isn't good enough. We've seen it with Rex. I want to see what Beck has.

Me too

I really was not all that impressed with Beck just by my own personal eyeball test after seeing him play in the preseason, but so be it. I hope he lights it up out there and I have no desire to see Rex return. This is Beck's chance to shine and I hope he does. I'm really disappointed with Brown's play also. I'd like to see Willie Smith in there ASAP. I think they should leave Monty at C and move Cook to LG or promote Hurt too.

We'll get this thing righted soon I think / hope

[tiger187126]

i think it's funny that when beck is in the playbook seems to open up. this is the way the preseason felt too.

for all the playcaller bashing, we don't know how much kyle was actually protecting rex.

the ability to legitimately threaten a defense with his legs and arm strength (compared to grossman) is a big advantage before we even line up.

[theTruthTeller]

One good thing about Beck is that there isn't much tape of him. Last week and 5 games in 2007 when he amassed nearly 600 yards. Next week: advantage Beck!

[akorn22]

That's cute. I see what ya did there...used logic 101 to make a nice little argument for john beck. However no one cares, because that whole little spiel is invalid because you made incorrect assumptions and assessments and presented them as "facts" in your premises. You are using inductive reasoning which isn't always accurate.

Beck is terrible. His deep ball looks like a duck with a shotgun hole in its wing. If grossman isn't competent enough, then we'll all just have to wait until next season.

[tiger187126]

That's cute. I see what ya did there...used logic 101 to make a nice little argument for john beck. However no one cares, because that whole little spiel is invalid because you made incorrect assumptions and assessments and presented them as "facts" in your premises. You are using inductive reasoning which isn't always accurate.

Beck is terrible. His deep ball looks like a duck with a shotgun hole in its wing. If grossman isn't competent enough, then we'll all just have to wait until next season.

i would argue with you that beck threw better deep balls in the preseason and has the obviously stronger arm, but you're basing your "facts" off of something you've made up.

his "duck" pass in the game yesterday was because he hit his elbow on the guards helmet.

[WilberMarshall]

Grossman has gotten progressively worse with each game:

QB ratings:

Game 1 - 110.5

Game 2 - 74.9

Game 3 - 77.5

Game 4 - 48.5

Game 5 - 23.7

Over the last three games, Rex has 2 TDs and 8 turnovers. This is clearly no longer the Rex Grossman that Shanahan saw over the span of the preseason. If this Rex had shown up in the preseason, we might have kept Clemens instead.

Stats, Stats, Stats, Stats...

Are just statistical lies...

Grossman is a great QB.

Signed,

Kurt Coleman

[Oldfan]

That's cute. I see what ya did there...used logic 101 to make a nice little argument for john beck. However no one cares, because that whole little spiel is invalid because you made incorrect assumptions and assessments and presented them as "facts" in your premises. You are using inductive reasoning which isn't always accurate.

Beck is terrible. His deep ball looks like a duck with a shotgun hole in its wing. If grossman isn't competent enough, then we'll all just have to wait until next season.

In an argument, premises are always presented as facts. You could make a counter-argument by presenting logic or evidence showing the premise to be false.

The following whine is just an unsupported claim:

However no one cares, because that whole little spiel is invalid because you made incorrect assumptions and assessments and presented them as "facts" in your premises.

And if my reasoning is flawed, it's your job to explain how. The following is just another unsupported claim:

You are using inductive reasoning which isn't always accurate.

You probably think you made an argument with the following statement, but you didn't. It's just an unsupported opinion:

Beck is terrible. His deep ball looks like a duck with a shotgun hole in its wing. If grossman isn't competent enough, then we'll all just have to wait until next season.

Here's another argument for you to consider:

(P1) In post #95, akorn22, criticized my argument implying that he was familiar with the basics of an argument which he referred to as Logic 101;

(P2) In the same post, akorn22 demonstrated no familiarity with the basics of an argument

(C1) Therefore, it's highly unlikely that akorn22's education included Logic 101; but if it did, he didn't comprehend the instruction.

[Derick461]

Feel like lots of others do. Gotta see what u got in Beck. Stronger arm, more mobility, and first thing I noticed in the game with the eagles is that he stepped up in the pocket to make some throws. Grossman back peddles and back peddles. An would also like to see some of our young receivers get more chances to play. Give Hankerson some plays. If he can hold onto the ball, feel like he can make an impact. Depth at O line is certainly a concern. D seems solid still though and should keep us in games. Receivers need to hold onto the ball too. How many dropped passes after Beck came in. He short armed some, but a few others were just pure drops.

[theTruthTeller]

I was hoping Beck was going to win the competition in preseason but anybody who says he will do better or do worse than Rex is just blowing smoke. We just haven't seen enough to know. It's time though.

Beck is like a vintage wine. It tasted like grape juice in 2007, but now is the time to pop the cork and swirl it around a bit. Or we can just look at the bottle and talk about how good it might taste, while we choke down some Old Mr. Mac.