The Argument: Starting John Beck Would Give Us a Good Shot at Winning the Division

[Oldfan]

that's something i think hurts the run and pass game. anything you can do to lock up a defender, even for a split second is a win.

That QB draw out of the spread Beck ran for the TD will cause defensive coordinators to keep a man in the middle of the field when they see that formation in the future. That opens the pass up a bit more. QBs with mobility make life more difficult for defenses, even thos who don't have Michael Vick's talent.

btw, my bold prediction for the game this weekend is (if beck starts) beck has more rushing yards than cam newton.

That's more foolhardy than bold, Brother. I hope you're right.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

That QB draw out of the spread Beck ran for the TD will cause defensive coordinators to keep a man in the middle of the field when they see that formation in the future. That opens the pass up a bit more. QBs with mobility make life more difficult for defenses, even thos who don't have Michael Vick's talent.

That play was drawn up last week for Grossman, FYI. This is per Beck post-game.

You're right that Beck's mobility is a big plus (especially now with OL injuries), but I'm just setting the record straight on that QB draw. Apparently the coaches felt that even Grossman was capable of running 2 yards forward.

[Oldfan]

That play was drawn up last week for Grossman, FYI. This is per Beck post-game.

You're right that Beck's mobility is a big plus (especially now with OL injuries), but I'm just setting the record straight on that QB draw. Apparently the coaches felt that even Grossman was capable of running 2 yards forward.

Interesting and surprising. I wouldn't have guessed that.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

That play was drawn up last week for Grossman, FYI. This is per Beck post-game.

You're right that Beck's mobility is a big plus (especially now with OL injuries), but I'm just setting the record straight on that QB draw. Apparently the coaches felt that even Grossman was capable of running 2 yards forward.

Doesn't mean they were right about it...

[tiger187126]

That QB draw out of the spread Beck ran for the TD will cause defensive coordinators to keep a man in the middle of the field when they see that formation in the future. That opens the pass up a bit more. QBs with mobility make life more difficult for defenses, even thos who don't have Michael Vick's talent.

That's more foolhardy than bold, Brother. I hope you're right.

that's the beauty of a sneaky bold prediction. he's rushed for 210 over 6 games and a lot of his rushes come from goal to go situations, where there aren't a lot of yards to be had. we'll see,

[darrelgreenie]

I like the moves they made, looks so far like a good draft, and free agent class, the team has gotten younger -- the win now mode to me was Shanny's first season, trade picks for a veteran, sign older players, etc. I always think heck if you can win while rebuilding all the better, sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't....But I am absolutely convinced they are building for the future so we'd be spinning our wheels if we keep debating that

I think we're in a situation where we can win while we build, the same as any good team.

But, the QB position could end up being our stumbling block because of the mistakes they've made.

e.g.(Shrewd QB moves+good coaching have allowed Chan Gailey/Bills and Harbaugh/49ers make quick turn arounds)

But, I think they've made some very smart moves, especially via FA.

The defense and specials are competitive.

Aside-

Imo whenever you have a HC as GM or executive, you have a schizophrenic leader.

HC by their nature are win now while GM's by their nature should be more long range.

I am picking up in our debate, that although we want the same thing, Beck starting.

Kinda.

I want solid QB play first and foremost.

I would be happy with whomever they trot out there even Rex IF the actually produce.

Imo a FO/team should never enter the season with a QB situation that can't succeed.

And when they make their QB decisions and the QB fails then the decision makers and coaches have failed.

So, its not that I want Beck per se I want solid QB play:

---------- Post added May-8th-2011 at 12:38 PM ----------

Not only that they didn't address the QB position with any draft picks.

Imo our FO is not so incompetent to completely avoid addressing the QB position without having a plan.

A plan that they feel strongly about, a plan that has much greater chance of success then drafting a QB.

Which again imo points more to a win now mentality then a rebuild plan.

Whomever their chosen QB will be I have faith in Mike Shanahan that they'll be successful (top 10-15 this year).

*(I'm giving them a pass on McNabb due to personality conflict)

In fact that's the standard by which I'm rating/judging the success of our QB this year. (top 10-15)

I am cool with however it unfolds, your thoughts seemed to be wrapped some in being frustrated by Shanny. So you kind of remind me of myself when I was frustrated and didn't like Zorn as our HC, so I'd feel edgy about some of his moves, my frustration with Zorn would become entangled with how I saw stuff going on. Is that the case with you and Shanny or I am i over reading this?

No quite the opposite.

You're talking to a guy that's always been in the tank for Mike Shanahan dating back to Denver.

I loved Mike's offenses, I love his gutsy playcalling.

This dude went for a 2 pt conversion to win the game.

His offenses are balanced almost exactly 50/50.

I loved Mike Shanahan.

But, this doesn't feel like the Shanahan I used to watch.

The Shanahan I knew would never second guess himself about Beck (if he did).

None of this is to be argumentative, I am just curious because as me and you have gone back and forth on this it hit me we want the same thing, we like the same QB, so what are we debating? Seems like we perhaps are debating your frustration with Shanny?

Not at all.

I think we're kinda having a rambling discussion about the current QB situation, how the team arrived in this predicament and wether or not we're okay with it and why?

The Matrix to me is very Zen. If you go Matrix -- believe in the outcome and you'll get there, no guarantee its a smooth ride.

touche, tis true but is Beck gonna be Neo or will RGIII?

But, on a serious note do you remember the scene with Morpheus, when Neo tells him the prophecy was a lie?

But for ME I'll let two things ride before I give them a hard time. 1. See if Beck fails. 2. If Beck fails see if they skip drafting a QB in the next draft.........If Beck flops and its May and Shanny didn't draft a QB, then I'd join your frustration with him.

No matter what happens with Beck, I'll still be a little troubled.

If Beck flops.....idk...hopefully we won't have to address that subject.

[THEREALTOR1]

So...tomorrow's the big day. I have to say that I'm pretty excited to see what Beck can do for four quarters. I really believe we will see the ball spread around to a bunch of different receivers and the playbook opened up.

So does Shanny have to name the starting QB tomorrow or can he just say something along the lines of he's going to let both QB's run with the 1's for the rest of the week and then make a decision? I've seen/heard everyone saying he's going to make a decision on Wednesday, but if I recall correctly, he simply answered the question asked about that by inidicating that he'd talk more about it on Wednesday. Didn't know if there was a specific rule that mandated he name the starting QB on Wednesday before the game or if thats just what everybody is expecting based off of the comment Shanny made in his earlier presser.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

You could be right, I just assumed that he would make the announcement on Wednesday.

[Chachie]

Personally I think it's too early to go with Beck. Brady had a 4 INT game this season and so did Vick. It happens. We couldn't run the ball either. I'm not absolving Grossman altogether. He's flawed. I'm just not losing my mind over the Eagles game and completely bailing on what was the sounder decision to begin with. I expect Coach Shanahan to announce Rex as the starter vs. Carolina instead of knee-jerking his way into his final option in week 7.

[Skinsinparadise]

I think we're in a situation where we can win while we build, the same as any good team.

But, the QB position could end up being our stumbling block because of the mistakes they've made.

e.g.(Shrewd QB moves+good coaching have allowed Chan Gailey/Bills and Harbaugh/49ers make quick turn arounds) .

Harbaugh inherited Alex Smith, granted he's playing better under him, and a talented defense. Gailey I believe acquired Fitzpatrick so I'll ride with that one but I want to see how their season plays out before I consider them a team that's arrived. But again even playing with that point, I am stuck on the idea of seeing what Beck has and if doesn't work I'll give them this draft too to work it out. Shanny doesn't strike me nor do I think you consider him a dummy. He said in an interview and predraft that building the d was a priority and that includes fixing the pass rush. Looks like he did it. If the Qb is the stumbling block he of course would be more acutely aware of it than us. And they seemed very diligent scoping out talent in the draft and free agency this year -- I can see them having a healthy obsession at fixing the Qb position via the draft if Beck isn't the answer, and my money is on him to figure it out.

Kinda. I want solid QB play first and foremost. I would be happy with whomever they trot out there even Rex IF the actually produce. Imo a FO/team should never enter the season with a QB situation that can't succeed. And when they make their QB decisions and the QB fails then the decision makers and coaches have failed. So, its not that I want Beck per se I want solid QB play:

Ditto me, I got nothing personal for Beck or personal against Rex. I want a good QB, I just don't think Rex has it, whereas Beck MIGHT. Only thing about Rex from a personal stand point is watching him I just don't think he gets it that he needs to improve -- he has said multiple times that the press just seems to hold him to different standards than other QBs as if its some sort of weird conspiracy by the media to question his play, his dad said the same to Chris Russell according to him. In his latest press conference he said the first INT was "no big deal" and blamed one on F. Davis, and the other on Gaffney. this stuff didn't bother me before, now its starting to grate on me some.

No quite the opposite. You're talking to a guy that's always been in the tank for Mike Shanahan dating back to Denver. I loved Mike's offenses, I love his gutsy playcalling. This dude went for a 2 pt conversion to win the game. His offenses are balanced almost exactly 50/50. I loved Mike Shanahan. But, this doesn't feel like the Shanahan I used to watch. The Shanahan I knew would never second guess himself about Beck (if he did).

You read his book. If you recall he talked about fixing Denver when he took over by working at different areas at a time. First year he started with improving the roster relating to defending the pass and improving the run. He didn't think he could do it all at once. Next year he tackled something else. I see a similar pattern here. He tended to bench players in Denver, had a fairly quick trigger. You can say well buddy you screwed up by starting the wrong guy in the first place. I get that but I don't agree. Shanny himself said its not always easy to see when you have in preseason, you need to see some players in the bright lights with pressure on them during the season to really judge. I just don't think its out of character for Shanny to think OK Rex looked good in preseason, give the dude a chance, and then reach the conclusion that he might not be the answer and try something else. I don't think that is out of step with who he was in Denver.

touche, tis true but is Beck gonna be Neo or will RGIII? But, on a serious note do you remember the scene with Morpheus, when Neo tells him the prophecy was a lie? No matter what happens with Beck, I'll still be a little troubled. If Beck flops.....idk...hopefully we won't have to address that subject.

I remember the scene but he became that guy anyway. If you want to stick to the Matrix, i can play it into the QB battle. If you got 2 Qb's that you aren't sure about, make them believe in themselves, you don't give them lukewarm endorsements. Tell them they are the goods, and if you are wrong, its fine to take the heat because you are just doing your job.

If you watch what Shanny has done with the rest of the roster. And consider his ego when it comes to offense, if both Beck and Rex flop -- based on what you know about Shanny's style -- isn't a given that he will do whatever the heck he needs to do to find the QB of the future in this coming draft?

[bonhommelemec]

Hi looked good in his limited time playing. That glimpse if far better than the long version of Rex.

The offense is designed perfectly for a player like Beck. He can thread it in there with a bullet, he can scramble pretty well, he'll air it from time to time, he's really good at the quick throw that Rodgers has perfected in GB, and he doesn't seem to have the propensity to turnover the ball like Rex.

I like Rex but he makes too many mistakes, Beck seems like the type that would manage the game better. He took us down the field well, mixing it up with a couple of runs.

I know that I am just reiterating what others have said but it can't be stressed enough, we need a change at the QB position.

Last thing, his game reminds me of Dan Marino. I am not saying that he compares to him, just that his game is based alot on the quick slants. Beck appears to have a fairly quick release.

I know that Beck may not be the saviour, but I am tired of the many mistakes that Rex has been making. Common sense seems to be to start Beck. I think he would have a fantastic game next week!

[THEREALTOR1]

You could be right, I just assumed that he would make the announcement on Wednesday.

Yeah, i'm with ya, I hope he actually makes a flat out statement as to who the starter is, but I get the feeling that just doesn't fit Shanny's style. I guess we'll all know soon enough one way or the other.

[Oldfan]

...If you watch what Shanny has done with the rest of the roster. And consider his ego when it comes to offense, if both Beck and Rex flop -- based on what you know about Shanny's style -- isn't a given that he will so whatever the heck he needs to do to find the QB of the future in this coming draft?

No. It's not a given. Sorry about the tease, but I have a thread in mind explaining another option if both Rex and Beck fail.

[tiger187126]

No. It's not a given. Sorry about the tease, but I have a thread in mind explaining another option if both Rex and Beck fail.

brandon banks, wildcat qb.

[Oldfan]

Yeah, i'm with ya, I hope he actually makes a flat out statement as to who the starter is, but I get the feeling that just doesn't fit Shanny's style. I guess we'll all know soon enough one way or the other.

I don't think the practice snaps will be split. The starter will be practicing tomorrow AM. I expect the choice to be leaked before the press conference.

---------- Post added October-18th-2011 at 10:42 PM ----------

brandon banks, wildcat qb.

Nah

[THEREALTOR1]

I don't think the practice snaps will be split. The starter will be practicing tomorrow AM. I expect the choice to be leaked before the press conference.

I agree with you that the starter will more than likely be starting in practice tomorrow, but you know how Shanny likes to provide certain information sometimes. I could still see him saying that just because some reporter saw "QB A" running with the 1's at practice, he intends to allow "QB B" to "make an attempt to compete for the position by starting with the 1's on Thursday". Of course we all know that "attempt to compete" could consist of nothing more than a single pass. I've noticed Shanny has no problem telling the truth, he's just often very obtuse about it.

The other thought I had was that there's supposed to be quite a bit of rain moving into the area tomorrow. Could be some poor field conditions to contend with tomorrow. I wonder what the likelyhood of an "injury" occuring might be? Which of course could be used as an excuse as to why one particular QB may be getting the nod over another QB. Would be a nice easy way to save face for one QB while providing an opportunity for another QB to make a start (ie make an attempt to compete for the position). How convenient would that be

[Alrah]

I really think that this could go either way, Shanny has surprised us before, it wouldn't be shocking to me if he kept Rex in. If it were my choice, I'd choose Beck. I was rooting for Grossman, and some part of me wanted to believe that he could change the way he played, but it's just not going to happen. If we keep Rex under center we'll have a few good games with him (Giants) a few decent games he's able to come back and win it for us (Cardinals) and downright terrible ones (Eagles).

As it has been said numerous times before, Beck has a huge unknown factor to him that is intriguing, and I would like to see what he can do. I'm not expecting him to take us to a Superbowl, but we need a placeholder this year until we can draft a QB, and it should at least be someone who doesn't turn the ball over all the time. And who knows. Maybe Beck will play well. I thought the same thing about Grossman, but it didn't work out. Let's move on with Beckgruber.

[Skinsinparadise]

No. It's not a given. Sorry about the tease, but I have a thread in mind explaining another option if both Rex and Beck fail.

Yeah in my view, looks like Shanny is trying to build the defense and supporting cast and hopes that one of these Qbs work at the same time, and if they don't work out, this draft is supposed to a be a good one for QB's, they have their full slate of picks plus and extra one, so it feels to me like the draft where the Giants traded up to take Eli. Matt Flynn IMO is a young and intriguing QB prospect if the Packers let him be a free agent. I'd focus on QB and O line in the off season. Hopefully, Beck precludes that need though.

For those that say Shanny went full out for Rex and Beck. I don't see that. He did go full out for McNabb in terms of compensation. Both as for Beck and Rex, the compensation was nothing, they both are signed for contracts near the veteran minimum. To me it comes across as if Shanny thinks one of these guys if not both MIGHT have a chance to be the guy and if he can build the rest of the roster why not take a chance? Looks like door #1, Rex is a flop. Now hopefully we are about to check out door #2. I've not been excited about door #1 anyway, so i am not discouraged yet.

---------- Post added October-19th-2011 at 07:56 AM ----------

I agree with you that the starter will more than likely be starting in practice tomorrow, but you know how Shanny likes to provide certain information sometimes. I could still see him saying that just because some reporter saw "QB A" running with the 1's at practice,

Shanny flat out said he would tell the media today who the starter is. At this point, I am a little nervous that he has some excuse to stick with Rex -- something like well, we decided to give him an opportunity to work things out and if he doesn't we are confident in our backup. If he does start Beck, IMO it says a lot. Benching Rex at 3-2, after 4.5 game is IMO a quick trigger. He IMO deserves to be benched but IMO it indicates that either Shanny really didn't have that much faith in Rex and or indeed liked what he's seen from Beck in practice of late.

[darrelgreenie]

Harbaugh inherited Alex Smith, granted he's playing better under him, and a talented defense. Gailey I believe acquired Fitzpatrick so I'll ride with that one but I want to see how their season plays out before I consider them a team that's arrived.

My point with mentioning them is that they made their QB decisions work and that helped them turn around their teams.

I don't know what 'arrived' means.

But again even playing with that point, I am stuck on the idea of seeing what Beck has and if doesn't work I'll give them this draft too to work it out.

Naturally we all want to see what Beck does, but should Beck fail I'm gonna have misgivings about them making the QB decision for the 3rd year in a row.

If the Qb is the stumbling block he of course would be more acutely aware of it than us.

But, lets be clear thus far in his tenure the QB position has been a stumbling block.

And they seemed very diligent scoping out talent in the draft and free agency this year -- I can see them having a healthy obsession at fixing the Qb position via the draft if Beck isn't the answer, and my money is on him to figure it out.

I agree somewhat except I think the above realization should have occured this offseason.

Shanny himself said its not always easy to see when you have in preseason, you need to see some players in the bright lights with pressure on them during the season to really judge.

This is actually a reason to start the season with Beck not Rex.

I just don't think its out of character for Shanny to think OK Rex looked good in preseason, give the dude a chance, and then reach the conclusion that he might not be the answer and try something else.

I think its out of character for Mike Shanahan to make the mistake of going with Rex over Beck to start the season.

The QB position is not like a RB or any other position.

If you watch what Shanny has done with the rest of the roster. And consider his ego when it comes to offense, if both Beck and Rex flop -- based on what you know about Shanny's style -- isn't a given that he will do whatever the heck he needs to do to find the QB of the future in this coming draft?

if both Beck and Rex flop--I'll have misgivings about letting him select another QB.

-Re:Mike's style This offense isn't Mike's style and Mike's style has been for his QB to have success.

[Skinsinparadise]

Naturally we all want to see what Beck does, but should Beck fail I'm gonna have misgivings about them making the QB decision for the 3rd year in a row...This is actually a reason to start the season with Beck not Rex...I think its out of character for Mike Shanahan to make the mistake of going with Rex over Beck to start the season... if both Beck and Rex flop--I'll have misgivings about letting him select another QB...-Re:Mike's style This offense isn't Mike's style and Mike's style has been for his QB to have success.

Correct me if I am wrong, you seem concerned now about Beck because he wasn't the initial choice and if he does look good you seem to have issues that they didn't arrive at the decision in the first place, and if both Qb's don't work you don't trust him to find the right guy in the draft. Thus Shanny's credibility loses out but just to different degrees no matter how this turns out? Then you got issues with Kyle. That's what i mean is your comments on this issue come across to me is wrapped some in how you feel about the CURRENT version of Shanny.

I am still in the tank for Shanny. But really my opinion about Shanny at the moment is not wrapped into what's going on. I just don't care about who he picked first. I can see a scenario where neither QB works and I still think he will fix it. If you weren't bringing up the subject, none of this stuff would even cross my mind. I just don't care about the process and likewise I don't care about instant results. I'll give him a shot with Beck and if he doesn't work I'll give him this off season. I am not saying you should see things the same way, but its on that point we'd be going on in circles.

On another note, did you hear Rex's comments today, he said he is disappointed because he's played good this year in every game aside from the last. He said yeah QB stats might indicate good QB play but he doesn't care about them, its all about winning and losing. And one more time he talks about how the QB isn't solely responsible for interceptions. I used to be cool with his personality, now I agree with Thom Loverro in that he's starting to get on my nerves.

[SWO-tarious]

Correct me if I am wrong, you seem concerned now about Beck because he wasn't the initial choice and if he does look good you seem to have issues that they didn't arrive at the decision in the first place, and if both Qb's don't work you don't trust him to find the right guy in the draft. Thus Shanny's credibility loses out but just to different degrees no matter how this turns out? Then you got issues with Kyle. That's what i mean is your comments on this issue come across to me is wrapped some in how you feel about the CURRENT version of Shanny.

I am still in the tank for Shanny. But really my opinion about Shanny at the moment is not wrapped into what's going on. I just don't care about who he picked first. I can see a scenario where neither QB works and I still think he will fix it. If you weren't bringing up the subject, none of this stuff would even cross my mind. I just don't care about the process and likewise I don't care about instant results. I'll give him a shot with Beck and if he doesn't work I'll give him this off season. I am not saying you should see things the same way, but its on that point we'd be going on in circles.

On another note, did you hear Rex's comments today, he said he is disappointed because he's played good this year in every game aside from the last. He said yeah QB stats might indicate good QB play but he doesn't care about them, its all about winning and losing. And one more time he talks about how the QB isn't solely responsible for interceptions. I used to be cool with his personality, now I agree with Thom Loverro in that he's starting to get on my nerves.

The sense that I am getting now is that Shanny wanted to start Beck to bigin with, but due to the groin injury in training camp he didn't take as many reps and as a result Rex won the job. I think he wanted Beck in there all along. Either way, there's no turning back now.

[TheGreek1973]

The sense that I am getting now is that Shanny wanted to start Beck to bigin with, but due to the groin injury in training camp he didn't take as many reps and as a result Rex won the job. I think he wanted Beck in there all along. Either way, there's no turning back now.

I think you may have something there. I mean after the draft he did say he is comfortable with the QBs and Beck as for now is the started correct? I think with the lockout and then the injury he probably felt Rex was more ready. Add the fact that Rex played a great game against the Giants kind of solidified this in his mind. But Rex regressed so much since that game that for Mike S this was IMO an easy choice.

[Skinsinparadise]

The sense that I am getting now is that Shanny wanted to start Beck to bigin with, but due to the groin injury in training camp he didn't take as many reps and as a result Rex won the job. I think he wanted Beck in there all along. Either way, there's no turning back now.

Yeah for me as I said on this thread, if Shanny benches Rex to me it says a lot. If he's benching Rex with a winning record after 4.5 games which isn't much (though am glad he is doing so) its likely that either he wasn't totally sold on Rex as the right choice and or he wanted to see some improvements in Beck. It struck me that Shanny said that Beck has looked good in the last TWO weeks in practice. he didn't say he's been looking good in practice in general but focused on the last two weeks. I take that as Shanny possibly waiting for Beck to fix something and now he's seeing it.

[skinsfan51]

This is the right time for a QB change considering Grossman's play. Shanny knows that a good evaluation needs to be made of Beck in the regular season to see if he's the starter going forward, or if the 'Skins need to focus on a top QB in the upcoming draft. He made the same evaluation last year when he benched McNabb for Grossman, and determined that Grossman was good enough to be the 'Skins QB for 2011. Especially after winning the QB battle with Beck in the preaseason. Because of this, and because Grossman bombed, I don't see a change back to Rex unless Beck is just unbearably bad. The season is Beck's to prove himself.

Shanny's reputation is on the line. He knows he needs to have a top signal-caller in D.C. by next year if he is to keep his reuptation and job. I John Beck proves to be that person, so we can start winning on a regular basis for a change.

[MattFancy]

I don't think he gives you a GOOD shot. He gives you more of a shot.

Realistically, if you stay with Grossman, you are staying with a guy that isn't a good NFL QB. You may as well see if Beck is any better at this point in time.

Well said. We all know what Grossman is capable of, its not terrible, but its nothing special. Why not give Beck a chance now and see what he can do?