The Argument: Starting John Beck Would Give Us a Good Shot at Winning the Division

[Oldfan]

Feel like lots of others do. Gotta see what u got in Beck. Stronger arm, more mobility, and first thing I noticed in the game with the eagles is that he stepped up in the pocket to make some throws. Grossman back peddles and back peddles. An would also like to see some of our young receivers get more chances to play. Give Hankerson some plays. If he can hold onto the ball, feel like he can make an impact. Depth at O line is certainly a concern. D seems solid still though and should keep us in games. Receivers need to hold onto the ball too. How many dropped passes after Beck came in. He short armed some, but a few others were just pure drops.

I noticed the drops also.

I thought Ryan Torain dropped one and might have run the wrong pattern on another before Helu replaced him. I wondered about the impact on his starting job.

---------- Post added October-17th-2011 at 07:44 PM ----------

Beck is like a vintage wine. It tasted like grape juice in 2007, but now is the time to pop the cork and swirl it around a bit. Or we can just look at the bottle and talk about how good it might taste, while we choke down some Old Mr. Mac.

[schmitty_199]

2 cents from a Cowboys fan: ( I understand if you stop reading now haha)

Grossman gives Washington the better chance to win the division. What you saw this weekend is what makes him Rex, and why he didn't stick as the Bears starter. He'll be average most of the time, occasionally great(See last years Dallas game) and then sometimes he'll be flat out horrible.

Basically a less talented version of Romo sits to pee.

While this isn't ideal, let's be honest, at this point Beck is all hype and potential. He's been in the league awhile, hardly played, and when he has played he hasn't exactly impressed. Beck is a complete unknown. Unless Shanny actually believes Beck could be the franchise QB, I don't see the point in switching now.

[Gurgeh]

I don't agree with that. I thought he looked very sharp in the Giants game. I also thought he played well for the final 3 quarters of the Cardinals game. So, he played 7 of 8 very strong quarters of football to start the year. My theory is that teams realized he wasn't going to hurt you deep or to the sideline and started defending the middle of the field. It's no coincidence (to me) that each of the next two games contained a MLB dropping right into Rex's sweet spot for easy INTs. Then there was yesterday's meltdown. I'm guessing that Rex hasn't changed, but that defenses just know the possible places that he can complete passes and are only worrying about defending those places.

Rex not throwing well to the sidelines would be common knowledge, but losing Armstrong was a factor in teams not respecting the deep threat. Whoever starts next will hopefully get Armstrong back, although the Panthers have a pretty good secondary... The only real chance we have of winning the division is if all the other teams continue to shoot themselves in the foot for the rest of the season, and even then I don't see us scoring enough points to win 9 games unless Cook and/or Hurt fit right in and Trent is only out for a week.

[butzskins]

Ok so Shanny is supposed to just let REX continue to throw picks? He has what 10 picks in 5 games?Yes sure leave him in. I mean the pats didnt bench Brady when he threw 4 pics so why should we bench REX. Right? LOL

[skeezer]

ya know? at this point in time,knowing that neither one of these guys are *elite qb's and are both on the high wire why not use both of them? i think this might very well what we are going to see anyway...why beat around the bush about it?

[theTruthTeller]

While this isn't ideal, let's be honest, at this point Beck is all hype and potential. He's been in the league awhile, hardly played, and when he has played he hasn't exactly impressed. Beck is a complete unknown. Unless Shanny actually believes Beck could be the franchise QB, I don't see the point in switching now.

Please don't try to impress anyone here with rational thought. Welcome to the nation's capitol - Beck will be the best QB of all time(!)...unless he sucks against Carolina.

[PeterMP]

The Eagles haven't floundered because Peters and Cole missed time (now granted, King Dunlap was a huge setback;)). They have floundered because they aren't a team. They have misfit talent on offense or defense.

The Giants are getting healthier, but they don't have that much talent to begin with. Our depth is better than theirs.

We can improve at the most important QB position; they can't.

The Eagles have "struggled" for a couple of reasons, including their coaching staff (their Defensive cordinator is their past OL coach, and he hasn't coached defense in quite a while), their early scheduele is tougher than it appeared (i.e the Bill and 49ers), and they haven't figured out how to mesh everybody together to best utilize their talent (which might have to do with the fact they have an old OL coach as their DC).

But if you don't think they'd be doing better with Peters and Cole (and even Dunlap) playing, then you don't much about football.

As for the Giants, I don't know how you can say our depth is better than theirs, when they have guys go down, and they can come up with a player like Victor Cruz, and they have more talent than us.

And yes, we can improve QB. The question is it really going to be much of an improvement, especially in the context with the recent injuries (i.e. is Beck w/o the injured players really better than Grossman w/?).

[whatmeworry]

I think the stragglers don't realize that a good argument could have been made for pulling Rex before the Eagles game. Many in the media are like fans in general. The team's record of 3-1 was all they needed to hear to reject the idea of yanking him.

Agree completely with this. Rex was miserable against the Rams and showed all the signs of reverting back to his old ways. If anything the steady progression of incompetence should have raised the alarm. Where is ASF when you need him?

---------- Post added October-17th-2011 at 08:52 PM ----------

2 cents from a Cowboys fan: ( I understand if you stop reading now haha)

Grossman gives Washington the better chance to win the division. Basically a less talented version of Romo sits to pee..

That says it all. Beck it is.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

ya know? at this point in time,knowing that neither one of these guys are *elite qb's and are both on the high wire why not use both of them? i think this might very well what we are going to see anyway...why beat around the bush about it?

What do you mean by that? Alternating possessions?

[LetThePointsSoar]

So far, I'm hanging onto the opinion that Mike Shanahan is a good judge of QB play. If Rex starts against Carolina, I'll throw in the towel on that one.

I won't throw in the towel if so...but let's just say the towel will @ least be on standby.

[RemoveSnyder]

Originally Posted by Oldfan:

So far, I'm hanging onto the opinion that Mike Shanahan is a good judge of QB play. If Rex starts against Carolina, I'll throw in the towel on that one.

I won't throw in the towel if so..

Throw the damn towel.

[Oldfan]

The Eagles have "struggled" for a couple of reasons, including their coaching staff (their Defensive cordinator is their past OL coach, and he hasn't coached defense in quite a while), their early scheduele is tougher than it appeared (i.e the Bill and 49ers), and they haven't figured out how to mesh everybody together to best utilize their talent (which might have to do with the fact they have an old OL coach as their DC).

And you figure they have all this sorted out now, so you expect improvement?

But if you don't think they'd be doing better with Peters and Cole (and even Dunlap) playing, then you don't much about football.

No, I figure that Peters and Cole started four games each and the Eagles lost three of them, so their loss wasn't a factor in the team's slow start. The Redskins lost Jenkins, who was slated to start on the D-line. They lost him for the season. They also were without Landry and Atogwe for a couple of games.

As for the Giants, I don't know how you can say our depth is better than theirs, when they have guys go down, and they can come up with a player like Victor Cruz, and they have more talent than us.

I can say that because I'm talking about "depth" not picking out one player as an exception.

And yes, we can improve QB. The question is it really going to be much of an improvement, especially in the context with the recent injuries (i.e. is Beck w/o the injured players really better than Grossman w/?).

We will have to see how well the replacements play, but they aren't replacing All Pros. As for Beck over Grossman, I expect that to be a significant improvement because, although he wasn't my guy, I honestly thought that Rex would play better than he did because he played so well in the preseason and in game one. But, his play has dropped off sharply since game two..

[darrelgreenie]

Our defense is good.

Our special teams unit is good, good punter, good coverage (knocks on wood) up and coming kicker.

OL was decent not great; hopefully our injuries won't turn them into a liability.

Decent skill postion players.

Aggressive pass first offense.

Wide open division.

I would feel much better about Beck's chances if they didn't waste 5 games worth of development.

The move to start Rex at the begining of the season still leaves me troubled because for me it signals a lack a lack of faith or confidence in their convictions.

[SkinsFTW]

In one quarter he did something Rex couldn't do in three and that is score a touchdown.

He also converted our only 3rd down, and a 4th down, and had all the completions to Moss and Gaffney and if not for drops would have had pretty great stats too. A couple dirtballs but those are still better than throwing more completions to a Philly Safety than all of your WR's combined.

[tiger187126]

He also converted our only 3rd down, and a 4th down, and had all the completions to Moss and Gaffney and if not for drops would have had pretty great stats too. A couple dirtballs but those are still better than throwing more completions to a Philly Safety than all of your WR's combined.

people forget that the "punt" that he lead was actually a 50 yard field goal attempt and gano had already made one from that distance until the delay of game when we still had time outs.

[Skins Wingman]

people forget that the "punt" that he lead was actually a 50 yard field goal attempt and gano had already made one from that distance until the delay of game when we still had time outs.

a little off topic, but im trying to figure out why they didnt let him try the 55 or 56 yarder. we need to see what this kid can do.

[Redskins Life]

You got to find out what Beck has to offer.

I just have to reflect on this comment, but not necessarily this poster. I find it very hypocritical how many posters have essentially been saying this same thing, yet many of these same posters (not all) were people who tried to castrate their fellow fans when they said the same thing a few years about Colt Brennan.

Now, I am in no way saying that Colt would have done anything, but he was more of an unknown than even Beck is. Also, as much as people want to beat up on Rex Grossman, Grossman actually has less than half the starts with much more success on his resume than what Jason Campbell had at that time (and still does). Yet, many fans say that we know what we have in Grossman. We didn't know what we had in Campbell?

Once again, I'm not saying that making a change then would make a difference, nor am I saying it would now. I just find the incredible hypocrisy of some of this board to be boarder-line psychotic, especially considering how vehemently nasty some of these posters have been to others in the past.

[tiger187126]

a little off topic, but im trying to figure out why they didnt let him try the 55 or 56 yarder. we need to see what this kid can do.

i think the game was too close. and btw, he's been a bright spot on the team after two years of people demanding that he be cut. but unless you're one of like 5 kickers in the nfl a 55-56 yarder just isn't realistic and it gives the other team the ball at almost the 50 yard line. when you really have a chance to win the game you don't want to squander it like that.

---------- Post added October-18th-2011 at 08:46 AM ----------

I just have to reflect on this comment, but not necessarily this poster. I find it very hypocritical how many posters have essentially been saying this same thing, yet many of these same posters (not all) were people who tried to castrate their fellow fans when they said the same thing a few years about Colt Brennan.

Now, I am in no way saying that Colt would have done anything, but he was more of an unknown than even Beck is. Also, as much as people want to beat up on Rex Grossman, Grossman actually has less than half the starts with much more success on his resume than what Jason Campbell had at that time (and still does). Yet, many fans say that we know what we have in Grossman. We didn't know what we had in Campbell?

Once again, I'm not saying that making a change then would make a difference, nor am I saying it would now. I just find the incredible hypocrisy of some of this board to be boarder-line psychotic, especially considering how vehemently nasty some of these posters have been to others in the past.

the difference is we weren't losing games behind the one of the worst qbs in the NFL when campbell was starting. he was mediocre and people basically got bored.

rex is actively losing (or trying to lose) us games and the guy behind him didn't just light up 3rd string defenses, he took actual preseason reps with the first team and performed as well as the guy who got picked to start.

don't forget too, that someone else was always ahead of brennan even when he was given opportunities to overtake the #2 guy, so it wasn't realistic that he would ever get on the field.

[jsbaugh]

Non-skins fan. But, do people discount that the coaches know what they have in their two QBs? There has to be a reason they went with Rex over Beck, or else they suck as coaches, right? Either Beck doesn't know the system, struggles making pre-snap reads or other reasons, but I can't believe that a head coach with Mike Shanahan's experience would continue to insert Rex in the lineup if he had a better option that might fit his long-term need @ QB. My feeling is Beck has some major deficiencies that opposing defenses will be able to exploit just as much, or more than Rex's inability to avoid turnovers.

If the Shanahans still feel Rex's gives them the best chance to win then I must be blind, because in two series Beck had yesterday he sure looked like he could move the team and get points. Same thing in the preseason where Beck looked pretty good.

[Oldfan]

I just have to reflect on this comment, but not necessarily this poster. I find it very hypocritical how many posters have essentially been saying this same thing, yet many of these same posters (not all) were people who tried to castrate their fellow fans when they said the same thing a few years about Colt Brennan.

Coming to different conclusions on different issues isn't a contradiction unless the issues are identical. The issues you describe were all about QBs. That fact doesn't make them identical issues. In fact, it would be nearly impossible to find two identical issues in such complex situations.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

What I find puzzling is that Rex clearly looked better during the pre-season. When the real games started, he just looked lost.

I don't agree with that. I thought he looked very sharp in the Giants game. I also thought he played well for the final 3 quarters of the Cardinals game. So, he played 7 of 8 very strong quarters of football to start the year. My theory is that teams realized he wasn't going to hurt you deep or to the sideline and started defending the middle of the field. It's no coincidence (to me) that each of the next two games contained a MLB dropping right into Rex's sweet spot for easy INTs. Then there was yesterday's meltdown. I'm guessing that Rex hasn't changed, but that defenses just know the possible places that he can complete passes and are only worrying about defending those places.

Nicely done. This has been my observation as well, with the added comment that Rex's receiving corps has been very disappointing. Part of that is the disappearance of Armstrong and Cooley to hamstring and knee injuries. Part of that is the inability of Gaffney and Davis to take their games to new levels (for example, catching contested deep passes). Part of that is Moss losing a gear and not being seen as a deep threat as he was in 2005.

In sum, defenses have adjusted to protect Grossman's favorite parts of the field (and Kyle's favorite combination routes), and the offense has not been able to adjust. That's partly on Grossman, partly on the receivers, and also partly on Kyle and Mike. The receivers who once ran free are now more closely covered by defenses. That's not on Rex.

[tiger187126]

Nicely done. This has been my observation as well, with the added comment that Rex's receiving corps has been very disappointing. Part of that is the disappearance of Armstrong and Cooley to hamstring and knee injuries. Part of that is the inability of Gaffney and Davis to take their games to new levels (for example, catching contested deep passes). Part of that is Moss losing a gear and not being seen as a deep threat as he was in 2005.

In sum, defenses have adjusted to protect Grossman's favorite parts of the field (and Kyle's favorite combination routes), and the offense has not been able to adjust. That's partly on Grossman, partly on the receivers, and also partly on Kyle and Mike. The receivers who once ran free are now more closely covered by defenses. That's not on Rex.

the real problem is that rex needs receivers to run wide open because he doesn't have the arm to fit in. also the playcaller having to abandon the sideline and the deep part of the field is 100% on the qb who can't make those throws.

that's like if you had a pitcher who couldn't throw anything but the fastball straight down the middle of the plate, but you blamed his pitching coach for not forcing him to try to make pitches that he can't.

rex only throws so many routes and even the ones that he can throw don't look good.

the truth is you spent the preseason making up excuses for rex and carefully cropping his stats to make him look better than he was while the rest of us pointed to the obvious truth that he turns the ball over at an alarming rate. well we're 5 games into the season and he's turned the ball over 11 times. that's an alarming rate. even more alarming is that you want to put it on other players when:

a) he's had a lot of poor decisions dropped by the other team

for his career he turns the ball over at least 2 times a game 50% of the time

for his career ASF. you can say that this situation is unique and it's not his fault, but he has always done this. so no matter what excuses you want to make, rex is who he's always been and he is the only constant in that.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

the real problem is that rex needs receivers to run wide open because he doesn't have the arm to fit in. also the playcaller having to abandon the sideline and the deep part of the field is 100% on the qb who can't make those throws.

The two deep INTs by Coleman should have been catches by Davis. On the first, he had better position than Coleman, and Coleman made a much better play on the ball. On the second, Davis failed to cut in front of Coleman and simply slowed down, allowing Coleman to jump ahead of him for the INT. Davis has correctly faulted himself for those INTs.

Two plays before the 4th INT, Davis dropped another deep pass (well thrown), setting up third and long and Grossman's very poor final throw.

The only pass that matches your description was the INT by Allen on an underthrown pass by Grossman. It was a great athletic INT by Allen, but Gaffney could have helped his QB by adjusting to the ball. That's something that Moss used to do well, adjusting to deep passes in flight.

In sum, I don't think the problems Sunday with deep passing were primarily on Grossman. However, you are correct that Rex has not shown much ability to spread the field with sideline passes, quick WR screens, or short passes to RBs. We saw more of such passes from Beck.

If you put together the sideline, screen and RB passing by Beck with Grossman's skill in intermediate passing, and some better effort by receivers on deep passes, we might have a complete passing game. The problem is a combination of weaknesses by both the QBs and the receivers. Beck offers a different set of tradeoffs, and I'm not sure that on balance they are better, aside from his edge in mobility. I think Beck would be shut down within a few games, once defenses adjusted to his skill set.

[SkinsNumberOne]

The two deep INTs by Coleman should have been catches by Davis. On the first, he had better position than Coleman, and Coleman made a much better play on the ball. On the second, Davis failed to cut in front of Coleman and simply slowed down, allowing Coleman to jump ahead of him for the INT. Davis has correctly faulted himself for those INTs.

Two plays before the 4th INT, Davis dropped another deep pass (well thrown), setting up third and long and Grossman's very poor final throw.

If I recall correctly, at least one of the throws you're blaming on Davis was a throw into triple-coverage. Grossman isn't the kind of QB who "should" have the confidence to throw those types of balls... but unfortunately he maintains that confidence. It's not a good combination.

[tiger187126]

The two deep INTs by Coleman should have been catches by Davis. On the first, he had better position than Coleman, and Coleman made a much better play on the ball. On the second, Davis failed to cut in front of Coleman and simply slowed down, allowing Coleman to jump ahead of him for the INT. Davis has correctly faulted himself for those INTs.

Two plays before the 4th INT, Davis dropped another deep pass (well thrown), setting up third and long and Grossman's very poor final throw.

The only pass that matches your description was the INT by Allen on an underthrown pass by Grossman. It was a great athletic INT by Allen, but Gaffney could have helped his QB by adjusting to the ball. That's something that Moss used to do well, adjusting to deep passes in flight.

In sum, I don't think the problems Sunday with deep passing were primarily on Grossman. However, you are correct that Rex has not shown much ability to spread the field with sideline passes, quick WR screens, or short passes to RBs. We saw more of such passes from Beck.

If you put together the sideline, screen and RB passing by Beck with Grossman's skill in intermediate passing, and some better effort by receivers on deep passes, we might have a complete passing game. The problem is a combination of weaknesses by both the QBs and the receivers. Beck offers a different set of tradeoffs, and I'm not sure that on balance they are better, aside from his edge in mobility. I think Beck would be shut down within a few games, once defenses adjusted to his skill set.

listen ASF, stop.

just stop.

it is the definition of insanity to keep blaming everything rex does wrong on everyone else. i mean there are 32 other qbs that play every week and yet you keep telling me that grossman is the only one that has to deal with this adversity. and not just here, but in his past as well.

he must be the most unlucky guy in the whole wide world.

you can break it down however you want, but until beck starts turning the ball over 2 times a game for 5 games he's just the better option. he has the ability to run when something isn't open as opposed to just forcing it into coverage.

but just drop the rex is a victim thing:

Grossman has turned the ball over in every game he’s appeared in with the Redskins. Even in his limited playing time in the famous “cardiovascular endurance” Lions game Grossman managed to lose a fumble.

Grossman has turned the ball over 2 or more times in 6 of his 8 starts.

Grossman has turned the ball over 2 or more times in 23 of his 47 career games. 50% of the time this guy steps on the field he’s going to give the ball to the other team 2 or more times.

Grossman has turned the ball over 3 or more times in 12 of his 47 career games. He’s unbelievably good at being bad.

you know even if it has been someone elses fault for every single one of those, i still would cut rex because it happens on his watch every single time.