The Argument: Starting John Beck Would Give Us a Good Shot at Winning the Division

[Oldfan]

...I know all about Hankerson being hyped more before the draft, heck some had him projected as a late first rounder. And Hankerson could turn out to be the better player. But as of right NOW, reporters covering the team in camp like Keim and Russell talk about Paul as the guy running crisper routs and looking better at the moment. A couple of things I read after the draft quoted a scout saying that Paul was their steal of the draft and might turn out to be their best player from it. Now, I've heard ditto about Hankerson but after camp, seemed like the buzz was Paul outplayed Hankerson. Shanny in one of his recent coach shows, hyped up Paul and said they will start throwing balls his way. He didn't say the same about Hankerson. Long term, Hankerson might be the better player but right now it seems like Paul is developing faster.

I agree with all of that, but we were talking about a WR with the potential to get deep, go up and bring in passes that were lobbed into his vicinity. Hank sounds like he has that potential. Niles Paul sounds like he might make a good possession receiver.

[SirClintonPortis]

It just makes sense to start Beck now to me. The switch was inevitable. It was going to come at some point. Might as well be now. When you really think about it, Rex is not as much apart of the future -- and particularly if he's not playing well and turning the ball over. He's totally keeping the seat warm for the incumbent. Plus, he's not signed through next year and turned down a multi-year offer. Whereas, the Shanahan's have more invested in Beck. They traded for him. He's signed through next year, and really he has more upside then Rex. Since this really is a rebuilding year, we need to see what we have in John. His development will do a lot to answer the direction the franchise will go in the draft. I'm certain they're going to draft a franchise quarterback next year, but might have the added advantage of not being forced to play him immediately if Beck excels at the position with more playing time. He plays faster. Better mobility. Stronger arm. I think he's going to be very adept at the short game. The key will be his ability to stretch the field.

It was a trade, but the piece we tossed to the Ravens was Doug Dutch, a perennial training camp body. We even got him back on the PS later in the season before letting him go when his contract expired, I think. Beck essentially came for free.

[Newera]

It was a trade, but the piece we tossed to the Ravens was Doug Dutch, a perennial training camp body. We even got him back on the PS later in the season before letting him go when his contract expired, I think. Beck essentially came for free.

I guess we will see how shrewd a move it was.

[Dirt]

Not concerned about Beck, concerned about their decision making.

Hm. Then you're saying Shanny should have just insisted Donovan was too old/inaccurate and said no, and insisted Rex was still a interception machine and said no. Which makes sense, I would like to think our coach would make bolder decisions and not be so trusting.

However, Shanny's trust is easily obtained in this situation. "Here Mike, here's a team. Blow it up. Start it over, keep whatever you want but throw everything else away and build a team".

So before the season even began, obtaining Donovan was trusting him. I'm sure they had talks. I'm sure Donovan said things like "Yes, I will work with you and Kyle to get this system down and pull out all the stops". Then he wouldn't wear a wristband and **** like that. So he basically screwed over Shanny. Maybe no matter what he did, he wasn't going to work, but nonetheless, that first QB decision with Donovan should be given a pass IMO. It was worth a shot, and Donovan provided almost the worst possible outcome, and this year he's shown it was no accident.

I'm sure Rex and Shanny had talks. I'm sure Rex said things like "Yes I will work with you and Kyle to make sure we have this system down and I will work heavily on protecting the ball." Then he throws a bunch of really bad interceptions over and over and ****. So he basically screwed over Shanny. Again, Maybe Rex just isn't capable to protecting the ball consistently, but that decision by Shanny was basically by default(as Beck is) because he didn't want any of the QBs in the draft or FA(thank god). Perhaps he was looking ahead to this years QB class.

Shanny's made these decisions based, ironically, on the thing you have a problem with: We MAY have a chance to compete this year. Donovan was supposed to be in his second year right now. That was a gamble, and maybe i dont' want our coach gambling, but it was really the only decision QB wise that I could really have a problem with.

This Beck thing is a formality, and I don't think it's fair to use it as a way to 'stack up' QB changes and then say Shanny's making poor QB decisions.

And of course..who else is out there, and who could he have picked to make it a GOOD decision? Meh. The decisions I take from Shanny are the way he handled Albert, which was awesome (seriously), the way he handled Mcnabb (wasn't really that messy, no one cared), and the great draft. He knew he was screwed at QB this year, give em a break eh. he's not crazy, he's getting a QB in the draft next year. Clearly that is the plan. And a good one IMO

[Shanny&Danny]

At this stage it would be dumb not to start Beck, we have to find out what he's got. You never know he might surprise everyone, have to remember that at one point everyone thought that Rich Gannon,Steve Young and Kurt Warner weren't starter quality.

[darrelgreenie]

He knew he was screwed at QB this year, give em a break eh. he's not crazy, he's getting a QB in the draft next year. Clearly that is the plan. And a good one IMO

That's where we disagree I don't think he thought we were 'screwed' at QB I believe that he thought that Rex/Beck could do the job.

Rex has failed we're about to see about Beck.

And if he thought we were 'screwed' at QB then imo he should have made moves to fix the problem via draft, trade or FA.

[BucketHTTR]

I don't think Shanny thought he was screwed at the QB position this year. He obviously has a lot of confidence in Beck. He traded for him and gave him a contract already. If Beck wouldn't of had a hamstring injury allowing Grossman to play so well, then Beck would of been the starter week 1. Now we are going to see the image of the football team Shanny wants. I think the offense was played to favor Grossman with quick releases and 3 step drops and less bootlegs. I think with Beck, that we will now see the bootleg again and the traditional style ofa Shanny offense we all understand

[Dirt]

That's where we disagree I don't think he thought we were 'screwed' at QB I believe that he thought that Rex/Beck could do the job.

Rex has failed we're about to see about Beck.

And if he thought we were 'screwed' at QB then imo he should have made moves to fix the problem via draft, trade or FA.

I mean post-draft, FA signing, he knew he was 'screwed', and I use the term loosely. He didn't like any QB in the draft, and let's not forget that resulted in a great draft filling other positions. After that, I would have liked a guy like Hasselbeck I guess, and I was even thinking Vince Young would be ok.

So yea, that does mean Shanny thought Rex/Beck could do the job. By 'do the job' that means no one expects elite play, but enough to win. It's risky having Rex as one of your two options, but it's easy for us to say we knew he was going to throw the picks as usual. I'm sure Shanny was aware of this, but considering the circumstances, he pretty much had to give Rex the benefit of the doubt, and give him a chance to show he can adapt. You'll notice, it didn't take him long to lose his chance. All those posts saying Rex's leash is wayy longer than Donovan's...not so much.

When I say he's 'screwed', I mean he willingly put himself in the situation, knowing he's got 2 guys, at least one of which can be on the team next year with the rookie. So for this year, Shanny's making the right decisions at QB. It was fair to give Rex a shot, and you should be glad Shan was so quick to take it away.

[Skinsinparadise]

I agree with all of that, but we were talking about a WR with the potential to get deep, go up and bring in passes that were lobbed into his vicinity. Hank sounds like he has that potential. Niles Paul sounds like he might make a good possession receiver.

OK, yeah agree that Paul is more of a possession type.

[Redskins4ever]

Grossman did perform slightly better than Beck in the preseason, which is why he won the starting job. Everyone who knows football knew that Grossman, sooner or later, would play disastrously and be replaced by Beck. Because of Grossman's strong preseason play, and the excellent way that he played the first two weeks of the season, and was very optimistic that he was finally turning a positive corner in his career. But he had me fooled. Or maybe I was naive that Grossman, whose critics have slapped him around in the media has criticized him and made him the NFL comic relief punching bag, would be silenced at last because of Grossman's play.

John Beck maybe capable of managing the offense to between 24- 38 points a game just because of his mobility alone. I'm not expecting that as a fan Beck will not male errors. He'll be hit, and he may fumble and he was also throw picks. Maybe a few will be returned for TDs. But he won't be nearly as turnover prone as Grossman was and is.

[Skinsinparadise]

My neither. Crisis is far more drastic then what I'm feeling or have said.

OK I was just noticing that in some of these Beck and Rex debates you were wrapped into the process of how it was going down and centered on Shanny and not per se in a complementary way.

That's OK of course. At this point, I just don't care how the sausage is being made whether its ugly or seamless, I just want to eat it and hope its good.

Of course not, but you're the one that said that they liked Dalton.

The cost to trade up to get Dalton wouldn't have been much more then Jenkins + Gomes.

The last time they traded up in the 2nd round, they gave up the following years 2nd rounder. You got me what the price was this time assuming there was a willing trade partner. But in the draft as you know you take chances and as Shanny has said more or less his approach this time was let the draft come to him.

Maybe they liked but not loved Dalton. And thought OK he's close to our pick lets see if he falls to us. The idea of this guy is our man, and we will do whatever it takes to get him -- is very Gibbs 2/Cerrato like and they got burned plenty of times with that approach. So its tough for me to give Shanny a hard time on it. I am tired of trading up and giving up picks or giving away next years picks.

J Reid though is with you on this point. but I don't take him overly seriously considering he has said on Comcast, he's not a Shanny fan, Reid was easily his worst critic until training camp. Reid eased up when he traded McNabb and AH.

Superbowl? Who knows? But, clearly that's not what I'm saying.

Playoffs (which was the OP)? I think its a realistic possibility w/ good QB play. Our defense is good. Rex threw 4 INTs and we were still in the game. Our defense locked the Eagles down in the second half, that's no small feat.

I don't think our O line is good enough. To me they still have to fix that and the QB position and find either a Wr within the roster or somewhere else that scares defenses.

Neither here nor there but Locker's being drafted higher then media expectation isn't a sign that he was over drafted, but rather a sign that the media perception of his evaluation wasn't on target. Also neither here nor there I wonder what would have happened if Locker was available at 10?

Don't know if they would have taken Locker of course. I just bring that up because some say Locker in the top 10 and Ponder at 16 were among the bigger surprises.

My larger point is they built their roster enough this off season IMO, that they can afford to go trade picks and get their QB next off season. If they love Griffin or Landry or Barkley or Flynn or whomever, I don't think it would be lost on them to do whatever it takes to get them and i think they will if Beck fails.

I doesn't seem a stretch to me to come up with a plan that is predicated by:

1. our roster stinks and is old. We need LOTS of help especially young players.

2. we cannot build towards the future by continuing to trade picks, if anything we need to add picks

3. If a QB we like falls to our pick we take them. (that's what Sheehan's source told him about Dalton)

4. If a Qb doesn't fall to us, we think we have a shot with Beck or Rex, we aren't sure but its worth the gamble if they don't work out we are building a supporting cast anyway and we get our guy next year.

5. Shanny doesn't expect this is likely or even remotely their Superbowl year. 2 things from media sources make me think so. A. Chris Russell said just that after the draft, his best source with the team told him that Shanny understands they have ways to go and need to seriously rebuild this roster. 2. Shanny in a WP article flat out said its not going to happen overnight, it will take time.

[Oldfan]

...John Beck maybe capable of managing the offense to between 24- 38 points a game just because of his mobility alone. I'm not expecting that as a fan Beck will not male errors. He'll be hit, and he may fumble and he was also throw picks. Maybe a few will be returned for TDs. But he won't be nearly as turnover prone as Grossman was and is.

You used the phrase "managing the offense." I have noticed a couple of other posters saying that all this offense needed was a "game manager." I think of a game manager as a QB of a very conservative offense, one which runs the ball at least 50% of the time on offense and depends heavily on the defense for turnovers and short-field opportunities to win games. Mike Shanahan's offense requires more than that from a QB.

From what I've seen so far, John Beck looks more like a conventional, Bill Walsh, WCO type of QB. He's going to beat you with his legs and his short-to-medium passing game. He's going to move the chains with ball control.

In the past, Mike Shanahan has preferred QBs with stronger arms than the prototypical WCO guy, so he will have to adapt. Beck seems to have a fairly strong arm, but I don't get the feeling that his deep game will be good enough to do anything more than keep defenses honest.

I foresee good ball control, helping out the defense, lots of trips to the red zone, but only a fair percentage of TD conversions in the RZ because we don't have the power-blocking O-line that seems to be needed near the goal line.

[AKM311]

I foresee good ball control, helping out the defense, lots of trips to the red zone, but only a fair percentage of TD conversions in the RZ because we don't have the power-blocking O-line.

That is what I call managing an offense. He will not dictate a defense, but will manage what our offense is capable with him. Rex wanted to dictate a defense, not manage the offense and a game.

[Skinsinparadise]

That is what I call managing an offense. He will not dictate a defense, but will manage what our offense is capable with him. Rex wanted to dictate a defense, not manage the offense and a game.

Rexy is ranked 22nd in the league in yards/per play, he's not testing the defense that much in terms of going deep -- I get your point but I think that plays more into Rex's risk taking personality as to throwing into double coverage, etc. In the previous game he threw deeper more than typical for him this season but otherwise he's had thrown plenty of short/checkdown passes.

I noticed in preseason when Beck played against Baltimore, Kyle had him go deep and show off the arm. The WP Maese and Reid seemed to be off about the arm strength of these two guys, 2 Redskins players have said, Cooley was one forgot who the other was -- that Beck has the stronger arm. I am not saying Beck has a rocket but he seems to have more zip on his passes than Rex. We might see him test the defense more vertically than Rex.

---------- Post added October-20th-2011 at 12:54 PM ----------

From what I've seen so far, John Beck looks more like a conventional, Bill Walsh, WCO type of QB. He's going to beat you with his legs and his short-to-medium passing game. He's going to move the chains with ball control. .

I agree with that but if he can improve his deep ball accuracy he might turn out to be more of a threat with the deep ball than Rex. I think for the most part Rex threw short to medium passes too, he was just ineffective doing so.

[BucketHTTR]

With John Beck's mobility.. I think our redzone numbers will start to go up.

[Skinsinparadise]

With John Beck's mobility.. I think our redzone numbers will start to go up.

That brings me back to Rex's first game in the preseason where he struggled in the red zone, Beck said coming into the next pre season game at the time said they'd he focus on scoring touchdowns which I took as a subtle dig at Rex. If the 2 major things Beck can improve on 1. Improve in the red zone. 2. avoid that costly mistake, he's going to look good.

The one thing about Beck to me that is Rex like that he needs to fix his fumbles. The both seem to hold the ball in a non secure fashion though Beck I think has a better sense of pressure and can get out of the way easier.

[darrelgreenie]

4. If a Qb doesn't fall to us, we think we have a shot with Beck or Rex, we aren't sure but its worth the gamble if they don't work out we are building a supporting cast anyway and we get our guy next year.

My speculation for their thought process: We will be good enough to compete with Beck/Rex at QB and therefore don't need to address the QB position this offseason.

5. Shanny doesn't expect this is likely or even remotely their Superbowl year.

Right but I didn't mention superbowl either I said reach their potential/compete for the playoffs.

I guess this is where we disagree:

But, imo every team owes it to themselves to have a player at QB that allows them to be competitive and the failure accomplish this goal imo can only be viewed as a mistake that results in a wasted year.

I think you would agree that right now this team is competitive enough to win games?

---------- Post added October-20th-2011 at 01:42 PM ----------

When I say he's 'screwed', I mean he willingly put himself in the situation, knowing he's got 2 guys, at least one of which can be on the team next year with the rookie. So for this year, Shanny's making the right decisions at QB. It was fair to give Rex a shot, and you should be glad Shan was so quick to take it away.

Okay.

But it sounds to me like you're giving him credit for making the most of situation that he needlessly created or could have solved.

[planter]

Beck, like all QBs, will need pass protection

[BucketHTTR]

Yeah, I am a bit worried about the Panthers offense. They have a lot of talent, but if we can jump out early and Beck gets into a rythem then i'll feel a bit better

[Skinsinparadise]

My speculation for their thought process: We will be good enough to compete with Beck/Rex at QB and therefore don't need to address the QB position this offseason.

Right but I didn't mention superbowl either I said reach their potential/compete for the playoffs.

For me, I'd like to make the playoffs but i wouldn't build a team with that goal in mind, IMO like Shanny has said its about winning the superbowl. i am cool with taking a step back now to take a couple of steps forward later.

I guess this is where we disagree: But, imo every team owes it to themselves to have a player at QB that allows them to be competitive and the failure accomplish this goal imo can only be viewed as a mistake that results in a wasted year.

While the QB arguably benefits above all positions from experience, so do other players, so I don't look at bringing a big draft class in and getting them experience as a wasted year. to me there are too may moving parts to this decision that we aren't aware of -- what if Shanny does love Landry or Barkley and is salivating at next years draft class and conversely wasn't as in love with this years class where he wanted to mortgage some picks for them among other scenarios.

I think you would agree that right now this team is competitive enough to win games?

Yeah but its not the bottom line for me. I am not sweaty about the Redskins 2011 edition. We've been competitive before. I want this team to be an elite team and consistently so, become a team like the Steelers, Patriots, Ravens, etc. That's why if the Skins think for example they will build their roster up now and trade up for whichever QB they love in 2012, not only am i cool with it but it makes perfect sense to me.

But it sounds to me like you're giving him credit for making the most of situation that he needlessly created or could have solved.

I just buy into the idea that you can take both a horrible defense and offense, and the oldest roster in the league -- and transform the whole drill in one off season, I don't think its unreasonable to give them 2 off seasons. The only thing I don't like is what they did in season one, to me that was the wasted year. Not this off season. and if they decided to go through the draft, considering the 2 Qbs that have been leaked that have peaked their interest in previous drafts Bradford and Dalton -- I am not worried that Shanny has lost his touch and will bomb with whomever he picks in next years draft if that's what happens.

[Oldfan]

...I agree with that but if he can improve his deep ball accuracy he might turn out to be more of a threat with the deep ball than Rex. I think for the most part Rex threw short to medium passes too, he was just ineffective doing so.

If it turns out the JBeck can throw deep well, and we get a couple of boys who can get deep, that offense would be super. I'm convinced he can move the chains right now.

---------- Post added October-20th-2011 at 03:14 PM ----------

Yeah, I am a bit worried about the Panthers offense. They have a lot of talent, but if we can jump out early and Beck gets into a rythem then i'll feel a bit better

His coaches gave Cam a small playbook. By the sixth game, Haslett and Co. should have a pretty good read on their offense.

[BucketHTTR]

If it turns out the JBeck can throw deep well, and we get a couple of boys who can get deep, that offense would be super. I'm convinced he can move the chains right now.

---------- Post added October-20th-2011 at 03:14 PM ----------

His coaches gave Cam a small playbook. By the sixth game, Haslett and Co. should have a pretty good read on their offense.

Actually, this is true. I'm hoping for no rain this week. I feel like we have a better chance at winning without a slopped up field. They have two mosters at RB's, and Williams is a poor man version of McCoy.

[Skinsinparadise]

DG:

funny been listening to the radio today, reading what I can, I'd summarize it as the following

Sports reporters -- Czaben and Pollan think J. Reid's article is flat out silly, they've upgraded their roster and the team is headed in the right direction, give him a year to finish the job and do the Qb thing at that point. Pretty much identical to my thoughts. Czaben thought Rex came across almost as bad as Jeff George in interviews this week and is now taking calls on the subject. Czaben thinks Beck will be the goods and thinks Rex is a disaster. Pollan thinks Beck will fail, he seems to be the most negative guy on the radio about Beck, and he seems to think Rex is likely the better QB. Pollan thinks both guys are stop gaps, Shanny knows it, and he has a QB plan for next year.

Jason Reid: is along your line of thinking. Shanny's rep is on the line if Beck isn't the answer. On the radio though Reid bashed Rex today and thinks Shanny is making the right move. He isn't a big Shanny guy by his own admission. I sensed that he thinks Beck will succeed.

Thom Loverro: closest than anyone to your line of thinking, he's OK with Shanny in general but thinks he failed if Beck doesn't work out and he needed to fix the position this year. He's down on Rex. He's unsure about Beck but will go for that ride if he isn't as turnover prone.

Sheehan: thinks both guys are stop gaps and Shanny has a plan for a new QB next year via the draft. He thinks the team is going in the right direction and doesn't fault Shanny for anything relating to the QB play. He seems skeptical about Beck, and seemed convinced Rex will be back.

Arrington -- thinks its a mistake to bench Rex in the middle of a winning streak, hence Shanny is screwing up.

Dukes: (doesn't know much about football but for entertainment purposes) identical position as Czaben, including taking calls about how bad Rex looks and sounds in interviews this week. He can't stand Rex, is optimistic about Beck. If this doesn't work out am sure he will pound shanny because that's his style.

Galdi -- pretty much identical point of view as Sheehan, except he seems to have a little more hope about Beck and is more anti-Rex.

[darrelgreenie]

I don't think Shanny thought he was screwed at the QB position this year. He obviously has a lot of confidence in Beck. He traded for him and gave him a contract already. If Beck wouldn't of had a hamstring injury allowing Grossman to play so well, then Beck would of been the starter week 1. Now we are going to see the image of the football team Shanny wants. I think the offense was played to favor Grossman with quick releases and 3 step drops and less bootlegs. I think with Beck, that we will now see the bootleg again and the traditional style ofa Shanny offense we all understand

Amen, brotha, amen.

I think Mike Shanahan had a lot of confidence in Beck.

But, I'll never understand nor agree with the decision to start Grossman.

I hope that we will see a more traditional Denver/Shanny offense but I still have my doubts.

[Skinsinparadise]

Locklear at LT, Cook at center, Montgomery at LG. Wonder if they can run the ball on the left side which they have favored to do this season, it should make things interesting for Beck