The Argument: Starting John Beck Would Give Us a Good Shot at Winning the Division

[illone]

Not sure if he gives the Skins a good shot at winning the division, but I think he is hungry for the opportunity and he can't be much worse than what we saw with Rexy.

Will be interesting to see how well he plays on Sunday, that's for sure.

[BucketHTTR]

To early to tell.. Just need to find out what he can bring to the table. We will know Sunday

[SWO-tarious]

The absolute worst thing that the Shanahan's can do is to formulate a game plan where we go to Charlotte and throw the ball all over the yard. I truly hope that they stick with a ball-control, run-first, pass second style of offense to let Beck get into the rhythm of the game. 3-step drops, draws, and then some play-action passes. Nothing crazy, just keep moving the chains and let the D rest up and unleash fury once they're on the field.

With that said, I am optimistic about Sunday. Instead of being scared everytime we drop back to pass, I'll be a little more excited about what the guys can do. :fingersx:

[paloosa]

Beck is the flavor of the month right now because Grossman has made too many mistakes to ignore that he isn't the answer. But neither is Beck because no one knows what Beck can really do because of the lack of starts under his belt. So what happens if Beck blows up in the next couple of games and plays just as bad as Grossman? Do we go back to Grossman or just keep playing Beck because he is the flavor of the month?

[redskinette]

@DanSnyderCares pays farewell to Rex:

[Skinsinparadise]

Beck is the flavor of the month right now because Grossman has made too many mistakes to ignore that he isn't the answer. But neither is Beck because no one knows what Beck can really do because of the lack of starts under his belt.

Isn't it a contradiction to say no one knows what Beck can do and he's not the answer all at the same time?

[Oldfan]

In 2008, Shanahan's Denver Broncos allowed only 11 sacks for the year. Rookie LT Ryan Clady was charged with only 1.5 sacks. It wasn't that Clady and the O-line were so great. It was Shanahan's use of the mobile Jay Cutler in his protection schemes that made the line look better than it really was. Without Shanahan and Cutler, Clady had 8.5 sacks charged against him in 2009.

Beck lacks the arm but has Cutler's mobility, so I look for fewer sacks despite the fact that we lost Trent and Kory.

The 2008 Broncos had Eddie Royal and Brandon Marshall. This is what Beck needs most now -- a couple of top notch receivers to help him. Armstrong, healthy, can do an Eddie Royal imitation, but as Mahons said earlier in this thread, we need that big receiver to make this offense fly. Can Hankerson be the guy? Hard to say.

[Skinsinparadise]

The 2008 Broncos had Eddie Royal and Brandon Marshall. This is what Beck needs most now -- a couple of top notch receivers to help him. Armstrong, healthy, can do an Eddie Royal imitation, but as Mahons said earlier in this thread, we need that big receiver to make this offense fly. Can Hankerson be the guy? Hard to say.

It might be Niles Paul. Shanny has raved about him and he's apparently on the field more and more for now in sets as a blocker but he intimated recently that the ball will start being thrown his way. Also Beck I presume has a rapport with him and Austin, maybe even Hankerson considering they are likely running plays together on the scout team. If you recall Beck had a nice connection with Austin last Sunday.

[Oldfan]

It might be Niles Paul. Shanny has raved about him and he's apparently on the field more and more for now in sets as a blocker but he intimated recently that the ball will start being thrown his way. Also Beck I presume has a rapport with him and Austin, maybe even Hankerson considering they are likely running plays together on the scout team. If you recall Beck had a nice connection with Austin last Sunday.

Austin and Paul look like useful players, but I was thinking of the big receiver, like Marshall, who will go up and come down with receptions that are just lobbed in his vicinity.

[Skinsinparadise]

Austin and Paul look like useful players, but I was thinking of the big receiver, like Marshall, who will go up and come down with receptions that are just lobbed in his vicinity.

Paul if I recall is 6 foot 1. He's also a very physical player its largely why he's in there to block. Hankerson I think is 6 foot 2? Austin, i agree doesn't fit that mold.

[Oldfan]

Paul if I recall is 6 foot 1. He's also a very physical player its largely why he's in there to block. Hankerson I think is 6 foot 2? Austin, i agree doesn't fit that mold.

Hankerson looks better on paper. Here are scouting reports on each.

http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/profile_display.cfm?prospect_id=2555

http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/profile_display.cfm?prospect_id=2534

[Prototype]

I don't know if you guys heard, but Hankerson likes Andre Johnson.

[Oldfan]

I don't know if you guys heard' date=' but Hankerson likes Andre Johnson.[/quote']You mean like he REALLY likes him?

[Prototype]

You mean like he REALLY likes him?

Hahaha, I was just referring to the 3-4 interviews of him being asked who he molds his game after, and he keeps saying in that funny voice he has with a slight lisp, "Um, I like Andre Johnson.":ols:

[Oldfan]

Hahaha' date=' I was just referring to the 3-4 interviews of him being asked who he molds his game after, and he keeps saying in that funny voice he has with a slight lisp, "Um, I like Andre Johnson.":ols:[/quote']Oh, okay. I thought maybe you had some choice gossip to offer us.:laugh:

[B&GVol24]

Just some food for thought:

Since Beck has been practicing with the 2nd team since preseason, do you think it's likely we'll see more of Paul and Austin against Carolina, due to the timing and chemistry they've probably developed with Beck in practice? (speculating here, of course)

Hopefully Beck's pass to Austin is an indication of what's to come :fingersx:

[darrelgreenie]

Correct me if I am wrong, you seem concerned now about Beck because he wasn't the initial choice

Not concerned about Beck, concerned about their decision making.

and if he does look good you seem to have issues that they didn't arrive at the decision in the first place, and if both Qb's don't work you don't trust him to find the right guy in the draft.

Kinda, I said I would have misgivings.

I think there's quite a bit of distance between apprenhension and 'not trusting'.

If I don't trust someone to do something I would let them at all, whereas I might trust someone even though I have misgivings about them.

But, there would be no more messing about via trade or FA.

He would have lost the right to acquire a QB via trade/FA in my eyes.

Thus Shanny's credibility loses out but just to different degrees no matter how this turns out? Then you got issues with Kyle. That's what i mean is your comments on this issue come across to me is wrapped some in how you feel about the CURRENT version of Shanny.

Yes, for me the glow has faded somewhat.

If Beck is playing at a high level at the end of the year, most of the credibility is intact.

Quoting my old first sergeant again, in my eyes Beck being successful is a "no fail" mission in terms of Mike Shanahan credibility.

I certainly have issues with Kyle, I make no bones about that, but that is a different story in a different thread.

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?351168-Kyle-Shanahan-s-comments-on-the-2010-offense

I am still in the tank for Shanny. But really my opinion about Shanny at the moment is not wrapped into what's going on......but its on that point we'd be going on in circles.

I think I've discovered the crux of its our disagreement (although amicable). My opinion of Shanny is based in the present because we have a chance to be competitive this year if the QB play is decent/good.

I give him/Allen lots of credit for how the built the defense hopefully their QB decision pans out and doesn't prevent us from being the best team we can be this year.

But, and this is where I think we disagree, imo its never okay for an NFL team to pass on the QB position during the offseason unless they're comfortable that their QBs give them a chance to win if not for the present at least for the future.

And if they are comfortable and the QB position does indeed prevent the team from being competitive then they made a grave error.

I believe that a team that has enough pieces in place just needs to get hot at the right time to make it into the playoffs.

And once your in the playoffs as Kevin Garnett said "Anything is pooossssiiibbblllleee!" @ :23s

But, only with adequate QB play.

Imo if lack of adequate QB play from a non-rookie/developmental QB is the main factor holding a team back and that team had the option to fix or upgrade that position and didn't do it, they've essentially wasted a season.

(Independent of our opinions of Beck)

I think we also disagree about wether we could 'have our cake and eat it too'.

I feel like you believe (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that finding an adequate QB would preclude us from having our current team.

I think we could have the exact same pieces we have now and have a better solution at QB then Rex Grossman.

If you look at Jenkins and Hankerson; without making a value judgement its fair to say that they are not the reason for the quality of the current team and therefore if those picks turned into a QB then this team would be in exact same place we are now except with better QB play and a hope for a bright future.

On another note, did you hear Rex's comments today...

Rex is Rex.

Being mad about anything Rex does reminds of the story about the ant who gave a crippled scorpion a piggyback ride across the road.

[Oldfan]

Just some food for thought:

Since Beck has been practicing with the 2nd team since preseason, do you think it's likely we'll see more of Paul and Austin against Carolina, due to the timing and chemistry they've probably developed with Beck in practice? (speculating here, of course)

Hopefully Beck's pass to Austin is an indication of what's to come :fingersx:

As the season progresses, I expected to see more of Paul, Armstrong and Austin and less of the older Stallworth, Gaffney and Moss. Beck replacing Rex could accelerate that process some, sure.

[MumboSauce]

I think Beck is smart and a student of the game. He is hungry, he wants it badly, I like his confidence, not ****y but confident. ....I think he's a little deficient in skill/talent. It was somewhat of a toss up and Grossman got the nod out of pre-season. I don't think Beck will be worse...just don't think he'll be a whole lot better either. I hope he surprises. Hail!

[Oldfan]

I think Beck is smart and a student of the game. He is hungry, he wants it badly, I like his confidence, not ****y but confident. ....I think he's a little deficient in skill/talent. It was somewhat of a toss up and Grossman got the nod out of pre-season. I don't think Beck will be worse...just don't think he'll be a whole lot better either. I hope he surprises. Hail!

After seeing his preseason performance, did you expect Rex to play that badly? Don't you think that Beck shouldn't have much trouble clearing such a low bar?

[Skinsinparadise]

Not concerned about Beck, concerned about their decision making.

Yeah I don't have a crisis in confidence in their decision making.

If Beck is playing at a high level at the end of the year, most of the credibility is intact.

That's cool, so why not let the movie play out before getting worked up about it?

But, and this is where I think we disagree, imo its never okay for an NFL team to pass on the QB position during the offseason unless they're comfortable that their QBs give them a chance to win if not for the present at least for the future.

As somewhat of a draft geek who likes paying attention to every round. For years, i watch other teams have full drafts, add picks -- and I am jealous watching it all. With the Skins coming in with less than a full draft, trading down and ending up with more picks than any team in the draft, that had to be my favorite draft day of all time. They seemed to have a good draft too. they seem to do well with free agents. They've done everything exactly as I'd like to see being done -- and yeah in my view unless you are in love with a player don't trade up and give up picks. And don't reach for a player regardless of position unless you love the guy, like we did for example when we took Chad Rinehart in the third round. So I can live and be happy with how they did this. and if Beck doesn't pan out, i am convinced they will be all over this coming draft to address the QB position.

I believe that a team that has enough pieces in place just needs to get hot at the right time to make it into the playoffs. And once your in the playoffs as Kevin Garnett said "Anything is pooossssiiibbblllleee!"

But, only with adequate QB play.

If I thought the same way, I might share your frustration, but not a whit of me thinks this team can make it to the superbowl. But yeah if i did, i'd be more frustrated about the Qb situation.

I think we also disagree about wether we could 'have our cake and eat it too'.

I feel like you believe (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that finding an adequate QB would preclude us from having our current team.

I watched the draft like a hawk as i know you did, and my take is aside from Gabbert (who I didn't have a strong opinion about one way or another) the draft didn't fall in a way where you could fill many holes in the roster and draft your QB of the future unless Mallet and Stanzi turn out to be studs. In my view and many others Locker and Ponder went earlier than expected, Shanny said as much about Ponder. Maybe they could have traded up for Dalton but I got no clue what teams were asking for -- it would be one thing if i didn't like what they did with their picks, but i liked their moves. If Dalton was there with their 2nd rounder and they passed over him, then I'd share your frustration.

Being mad about anything Rex does reminds of the story about the ant who gave a crippled scorpion a piggyback ride across the road.

I am not mad at him, he just seems whiny and delusional. Beck took losing the job in the preseason IMO much better than Rex does right now. Beck at the time talked about working harder and fixing things. Rex not at all -- he's casting blame and to a degree playing the victim.

---------- Post added October-19th-2011 at 08:43 PM ----------

Hankerson looks better on paper. Here are scouting reports on each.

http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/profile_display.cfm?prospect_id=2555

http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/profile_display.cfm?prospect_id=2534

I know all about Hankerson being hyped more before the draft, heck some had him projected as a late first rounder. And Hankerson could turn out to be the better player. But as of right NOW, reporters covering the team in camp like Keim and Russell talk about Paul as the guy running crisper routs and looking better at the moment. A couple of things I read after the draft quoted a scout saying that Paul was their steal of the draft and might turn out to be their best player from it. Now, I've heard ditto about Hankerson but after camp, seemed like the buzz was Paul outplayed Hankerson. Shanny in one of his recent coach shows, hyped up Paul and said they will start throwing balls his way. He didn't say the same about Hankerson. Long term, Hankerson might be the better player but right now it seems like Paul is developing faster.

[darrelgreenie]

Yeah I don't have a crisis in confidence in their decision making.

My neither.

Crisis is far more drastic then what I'm feeling or have said.

That's cool, so why not let the movie play out before getting worked up about it?

I'm not worked up at all, I'm just having a discussion based on the questions you've asked me.

But you're right we can't do anything else but let it play out but I always look ahead its my nature.

-- and yeah in my view unless you are in love with a player don't trade up and give up picks.

Of course not, but you're the one that said that they liked Dalton.

The cost to trade up to get Dalton wouldn't have been much more then Jenkins + Gomes.

and if Beck doesn't pan out, i am convinced they will be all over this coming draft to address the QB position.

If Beck doesn't pan out, you already know how I feel about.

Hopefully, Beck will pan out.

BTW-I'm gonna try to find a Malcolm Kelly jersey.

If I thought the same way, I might share your frustration, but not a whit of me thinks this team can make it to the superbowl. But yeah if i did, i'd be more frustrated about the Qb situation.

Superbowl? Who knows? But, clearly that's not what I'm saying.

Playoffs (which was the OP)? I think its a realistic possibility w/ good QB play.

Our defense is good.

Rex threw 4 INTs and we were still in the game.

Our defense locked the Eagles down in the second half, that's no small feat.

I watched the draft like a hawk as i know you did, and my take is aside from Gabbert (who I didn't have a strong opinion about one way or another) the draft didn't fall in a way where you could fill many holes in the roster and draft your QB of the future...

If Dalton was there with their 2nd rounder and they passed over him, then I'd share your frustration.

I know that's how you feel but like I was saying early you, yourself, said that they liked Dalton and I don't see why Dalton couldn't be wearing Burgundy and Gold for the cost of Jenkins+Gomes or on the more expensive side (although I doubt it would've been) Jenkins+Hankerson.

We still effectively have the same contributing members of the current team.

In my view and many others Locker and Ponder went earlier than expected, Shanny said as much about Ponder.

Neither here nor there but Locker's being drafted higher then media expectation isn't a sign that he was over drafted, but rather a sign that the media perception of his evaluation wasn't on target.

Also neither here nor there I wonder what would have happened if Locker was available at 10?

I know all about Hankerson being hyped more before the draft, heck some had him projected as a late first rounder. And Hankerson could turn out to be the better player. But as of right NOW, reporters covering the team in camp like Keim and Russell talk about Paul as the guy running crisper routs and looking better at the moment. A couple of things I read after the draft quoted a scout saying that Paul was their steal of the draft and might turn out to be their best player from it. Now, I've heard ditto about Hankerson but after camp, seemed like the buzz was Paul outplayed Hankerson. Shanny in one of his recent coach shows, hyped up Paul and said they will start throwing balls his way*. He didn't say the same about Hankerson. Long term, Hankerson might be the better player but right now it seems like Paul is developing faster.

I think Paul has the upper hand for 2 key reasons: blocking and consistency.

Paul is a physical player and a great blocker for a WR.

Hankerson imo is a more fluid player that can make the tough catch.

But, based on his drops I get the feeling his concentration lapses which may cause some of the routine passes he dropped in preseason.

I find the bolded portion telling because I was thinking the same thing.

I noticed that Paul is in on a lot of the run plays yet they never throw to him:

....The first play is our normal outside zone stretch run; probably thee staple play of our offense.

This one is from I-Form w/ Cooley at FB/HB Niles Paul*, our best blocking WR, motions to block (cut) the backside pursuit.

*(They might want to call some pass plays for Paul because sooner or later teams are gonna start to key on Paul in the game at WR=run play)

Helu shows the skills to be a good back in this system feel, vision, decisiveness(confidence) and cutback ability.

Hopefully runs like this build confidence in Kyle that we can run against a strong run front.

The Rams built an 8 man box on this play, and because of the tight split by Moss and the motion by Paul 9 defenders end up within 4 yards of the LOS:

[Voice_of_Reason]

In this offense, the way that MIKE Shanahan wants to run it, you can win games if your QB throws for 180-220, you run the ball for ~100-140, you control the clock and don't turn the ball over.

That's probably good for ~20-24 points per game, which would be good enough for ~9 wins.

With the defense playing pretty well, that'll do for this year until they can find a more long term solution in the off season.

Grossman couldn't do that consistently. Because he's apt to turn the ball over 2-3 times a game on fumbles and INTs. And while the D is much improved, it just isn't going to generate 2-3 turnover per game consistently.

I'm good with attempting to see if Beck can do what Grossman couldn't. Run the offense. You don't have to have a wiz-bang arm to run this offense. Heck, Jake Plummer and whatshisnugget in Houston, who will never be confused with John Elway, both have run it effectively

[KokoMike]

The over/under for Beck, if we lose, is two. The over/under for Beck, if we win, is three.

If Beck is too conservative, like a Jason Campbell, we lose. If Beck makes mistakes, but also big plays, we win.

We'll see if he has the guts to win.

P.S. Carolina is 1-5 and is a 2.5 point favorite. They have only been a favorite one time this year and they won 16-10 against the Jags.

Jags QB Gabbert was 12-21 for 129 yards, 1 TD, 1 Int. Tackled in end zone for a safety. Returned a fumble for 6 yards. If Beck has these types of stats, look for the same result. btw: Jones-Drew ran 24 times for 122 yards, with 3 catches for 45 yards in that loss, too.

[Newera]

It just makes sense to start Beck now to me. The switch was inevitable. It was going to come at some point. Might as well be now. When you really think about it, Rex is not as much apart of the future -- and particularly if he's not playing well and turning the ball over. He's totally keeping the seat warm for the incumbent. Plus, he's not signed through next year and turned down a multi-year offer. Whereas, the Shanahan's have more invested in Beck. They traded for him. He's signed through next year, and really he has more upside then Rex. Since this really is a rebuilding year, we need to see what we have in John. His development will do a lot to answer the direction the franchise will go in the draft. I'm certain they're going to draft a franchise quarterback next year, but might have the added advantage of not being forced to play him immediately if Beck excels at the position with more playing time. He plays faster. Better mobility. Stronger arm. I think he's going to be very adept at the short game. The key will be his ability to stretch the field.

I remember watching Aaron Rodgers when he first started playing, (when he replaced an injured Farve in Dallas), what I noticed most about Rodgers was ability to effectively grasp the short game. Four years later, he's a monster and the best quarterback in the game. I think if there is anything Beck learned working out with Rodgers and Brees in San Diego, was "Play faster."

You could tell the Eagles were having a difficult time adjusting to his tempo. He had them off balance. All while still being rusty.