The Argument: Starting John Beck Would Give Us a Good Shot at Winning the Division

[darrelgreenie]

For me, I'd like to make the playoffs but i wouldn't build a team with that goal in mind, IMO like Shanny has said its about winning the superbowl. i am cool with taking a step back now to take a couple of steps forward later.

No one is saying we should or are trying to build a playoff team.

However if you agree that we've been competitive thus far then its not a stretch to think the playoffs are a possibility.

You said this earlier:

I like the moves they made, looks so far like a good draft, and free agent class, the team has gotten younger -- the win now mode to me was Shanny's first season, trade picks for a veteran, sign older players, etc. I always think heck if you can win while rebuilding all the better, sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. As long as the Redskins don't get giddy from some success during the season and do something foolish like trade a first and 2nd rounder for Carson Palmer ala the Raiders -- I can live with talk about the future is now as long as they build they roster with the long view.

The way things have shaken out it appears we're in a position to win while rebuilding.

While the QB arguably benefits above all positions from experience, so do other players, so I don't look at bringing a big draft class in and getting them experience as a wasted year.

A wasted terms of: the development of the offense, an offense can only go as far as the QB and it takes QBs time to develop.

Every year not spent helping that QB reach their potential imo is wasting a year of productivity from all the players on the team.

If QB play is the reason for losing winnable games its prevents the team from establishing

a winning tradition, from maximizing the potential of the unit and the team and maybe getting into the playoffs.

to me there are too may moving parts to this decision that we aren't aware of

But, we can certainly be aware of the results.

I think you would agree that right now this team is competitive enough to win games?

Yeah but its not the bottom line for me. I am not sweaty about the Redskins 2011 edition. We've been competitive before. I want this team to be an elite team and consistently so, become a team like the Steelers, Patriots, Ravens, etc. That's why if the Skins think for example they will build their roster up now and trade up for whichever QB they love in 2012, not only am i cool with it but it makes perfect sense to me.

If feel like your missing my point.

I'm not saying being competitive right now is the bottom line.

But its the actuality, we are a competitive team.

Having adequate QB this year doesn't preclude anything you've said above.

It just allows the team to capitalize on the moves they've made at the other positions.

[Skinsinparadise]

DG:

I don't think i am missing your point. Correct me if i am wrong, but its something like this: the Qb is the core position of the team, he now has had two years to fix the core and if Beck fails then Shanny has failed to get it done. Yes, they've built the roster but that doesn't preclude fixing the QB position at the same time, and considering they seem competitive now, imagine if the QB was here too, they can make some immediate noise in the standings while grooming the Qb of the future at the same time. Shanny is smart enough to know this thus you believe that he truly was totally sold on those guys? And if Shanny is such a QB guru even if the draft didn't go their way with Dalton falling, etc, he should take a Mallet, Stanzi, or a Jeff Johnson in free agency and find that diamond in the rough. And its not your job to figure this out for Shanny, he's a smart guy, he needs to fix this and had an opportunity to do it. Am I warm or cold?

My counter to that: It's not that easy to find a diamond in the rough QB. I don't care who you are. For example, if you read about how the Patriots found Brady, Belichick wasn't a huge part of the process and his upside in the NFL was a surprise, they thought he'd be a good back up initially. Norv who has a good offensive mind, struck out with Shuler, some say he liked Dilfer more, but he wasn't a franchise QB either. We went through multiple QB's until he traded for Brad Johnson. I agree that the draft can come your way but if it doesn't unless I am sold that a Qb is the be all and end all, I don't compound the Skins issues with lack of youth and depth by trading more of them again. It is totally feasible to me that the plan was build the roster, if a QB falls to us at our pick without mortgaging picks, lets do it, if not MAYBE Beck and Rex is the answer, lets check it out. and if they don't work we got extra picks for 2012 to trade up and we will zone in on which QB we want in that draft and we will make it happen then. We don't care that much about whether we make the playoffs, Shanny has made the playoffs plenty of times in his career, its not a big deal, lets build a Superbowl team and to do that to give up picks, we are going to go after a player WE LOVE, not like, but love. And heck yeah I sees feasible to me that they have already scouted some of the 2012 Qbs and solicited feedback from their scouts about that class.

[darrelgreenie]

DG:

I don't think i am missing your point. Correct me if i am wrong, but its something like this: the Qb is the core position of the team, he now has two years to fix the core and if Beck fails then Shanny has failed to get it done. Yes, they've built the roster but that doesn't preclude fixing the QB position at the same time, and considering they seem competitive now, imagine if the QB was here too, they can make some immediate noise in the standings while grooming the Qb of the future at the same time. Shanny is smart enough to know this thus you believe that he truly was toally sold on those guys?..(this portion of your post isn't part of my point)....Am I warm or cold?

I gotta admit this pretty dead on.

But I would add this key part: if Shanahan was sold on Beck/Rex and if Beck fails its a cause of concern because it shows that Mike again made a poor QB evaluation, and that evaluation wrongly caused him not to address the QB position.

-BTW

Should Beck fail I'm not saying that Shanny should be fired or anything like that.

I'm saying nothing more then its a mistake.

And we all make mistakes.

John Dalton Beck approves and declares he will not fail!

[sportjunkie07]

one thing i dont completely understand about this whole starting qb scenario is shanny's reaction to rex being out of shape, there really wasnt one. there was no question that rex had not been busting his tail in the offseason. shanny normally sticks to his guns and he made it clear that if you were out of shape, you wouldnt be playing.

this makes me think (as i thought during preseason) that the qb competition early on wasnt as close as some thought and that rex was clearly better in shanahan's eyes.

anyways, if the above is true, i hope beck has improved and can lead this offense efficiently.

[Skinsinparadise]

I gotta admit this pretty dead on.

But I would add this key part: if Shanahan was sold on Beck/Rex and if Beck fails its a cause of concern because it shows that Mike again made a poor QB evaluation, and that evaluation wrongly caused him not to address the QB position.

-BTW

Should Beck fail I'm not saying that Shanny should be fired or anything like that.

I'm saying nothing more then its a mistake.

And we all make mistakes.

I just reread my post, some sloppy writing on my end, i cleaned it up. We are not that far apart on the consequence of Beck failing if it happens. I see it more as Shanny taking a risk and it simply didn't work, its a mistake but a small one. My hunch is that Shanny thinks Beck MIGHT be the answer as opposed to thinking he IS the answer -- no matter what votes of public confidence he gives him.

---------- Post added October-20th-2011 at 07:51 PM ----------

one thing i dont completely understand about this whole starting qb scenario is shanny's reaction to rex being out of shape, there really wasnt one. there was no question that rex had not been busting his tail in the offseason. shanny normally sticks to his guns and he made it clear that if you were out of shape, you wouldnt be playing.

Rex is going to have more free time to hit the gym and lose some weight. Maybe he will get in shape now?

[BucketHTTR]

I gotta admit this pretty dead on.

But I would add this key part: if Shanahan was sold on Beck/Rex and if Beck fails its a cause of concern because it shows that Mike again made a poor QB evaluation, and that evaluation wrongly caused him not to address the QB position.

-BTW

Should Beck fail I'm not saying that Shanny should be fired or anything like that.

I'm saying nothing more then its a mistake.

And we all make mistakes.

John Dalton Beck approves and declares he will not fail!

Nah, that pick is weak.. Where is the Mullet?

[Dirt]

[/color]Okay.

But it sounds to me like you're giving him credit for making the most of situation that he needlessly created or could have solved.

Needlessly created, yea I could agree with that (McNabb). As for solving it, even before McNabb the only solution is drafting a QB he likes, and he didn't like one this year. This, assuming we all agree we didn't want any of the FA QBs.

[THEREALTOR1]

one thing i dont completely understand about this whole starting qb scenario is shanny's reaction to rex being out of shape, there really wasnt one. there was no question that rex had not been busting his tail in the offseason. shanny normally sticks to his guns and he made it clear that if you were out of shape, you wouldnt be playing.

this makes me think (as i thought during preseason) that the qb competition early on wasnt as close as some thought and that rex was clearly better in shanahan's eyes.

anyways, if the above is true, i hope beck has improved and can lead this offense efficiently.

How do we know (or not know) that maybe this was Shanny's plan all along. Maybe he felt that the PS competition was won by Rex in the sense that he felt comfortable enough to move into the season with RG as the starting QB but that behind the scenes he felt that JB was improving in the offense and he knew that within a 8 weeks or so he would be a much more effective QB than what Rex is? We don't know any of these things because we don't see what the coaches see everyday at practice. This could very well be the scenario behind why MS made the decision to bench a 3-2 QB, because he knows JB bring even more of an opportunity for success to the table. Alot of hypothetical what-ifs can be associated with this move.

[Oldfan]

...My hunch is that Shanny thinks Beck MIGHT be the answer as opposed to thinking he IS the answer -- no matter what votes of public confidence he gives him...

What do you think Mike had to gain from the effusive praise he gave Beck in the offseason? All it did was to put more pressure on Beck and set himself up to look like a dimwit if Beck can't cut it.

I think he was calling the shot. He DOES believe in Beck, he expects Beck to shine, and when it happens, Mike wants us to know that he called the shot. John Beck, after all, is a longshot bet. It requires more skill to pick longshots.

It's harder to comprehend his starting Rex in game one. Mike had to know that Rex is misfit for his scheme.

The only thing that makes sense to me is that Rex fooled him with an excellent preseason performance against defenses that weren't game planning. The coach saw Rex's edge in scheme-knowledge over Beck as a win-now opportunity that he couldn't pass up. The downside is that now it looks like he missed on McNabb and Grossman back-to-back.

I don't believe that, before this preseason, Shanny ever thought of Rex as anything more than a capable backup -- which is the right call.

[BucketHTTR]

I think Beck is the answer to be honest. Maybe i'm just crazy, but i've never had an issue with the way this guy has played for us every snap he took.

[chipwhich]

I don't believe that, before this preseason, he ever thought of Rex as anything more than a capable backup.

He left Grossman on the open market, free to sign elsewhere, then "locked" him up for one year.

I would say you are correct!

[brandymac27]

He left Grossman on the open market, free to sign elsewhere, then "locked" him up for one year.

I would say you are correct!

True, but then this leads to the fact that Mike felt Beck was his guy. How do you go so far as to put your reputation on the line for a QB like Beck? It's the equivalent of staking your reputation on Todd Collins.

[BucketHTTR]

True, but then this leads to the fact that Mike felt Beck was his guy. How do you go so far as to put your reputation on the line for a QB like Beck? It's the equivalent of staking your reputation on Todd Collins.

I think Beck is a little more then Collins.. At least he can run, HAHA.

Serious note though.. If Beck doesn't perform well on Sunday I would be surprised. Just his poise is something I haven't seen in a Redskins QB in a long time

[chipwhich]

True, but then this leads to the fact that Mike felt Beck was his guy. How do you go so far as to put your reputation on the line for a QB like Beck? It's the equivalent of staking your reputation on Todd Collins.

Personally I don't think Mike staked his reputation on our offense. I think he decided none of the QB's to draft were right for him, and he looked at this as year two in a 5 year plan.

He knew after year one our defense was terrible, and he couldn't fix it all in one year.

[Oldfan]

True, but then this leads to the fact that Mike felt Beck was his guy. How do you go so far as to put your reputation on the line for a QB like Beck? It's the equivalent of staking your reputation on Todd Collins.

Not to Mike Shanahan it isn't. Mike could give you a long list of reasons why John Beck will likely work in his scheme but Todd Collins couldn't. That's his job. He's been making those judgments for many years.

He can't be certain of his opinion because there are some important factors that can only be judged by putting the QB under fire.

[brandymac27]

I think Beck is a little more then Collins.. At least he can run, HAHA.

Serious note though.. If Beck doesn't perform well on Sunday I would be surprised. Just his poise is something I haven't seen in a Redskins QB in a long time

So ultimately, Beck was supposed to be our stopgap QB? What was the point in signing Rex then if Mike felt so highly of Beck? Unless he thought we could both win now and rebuild all at the same time w/ Rex. Then again, I dunno. He had to have foreseen the problems w/ Rex.

[chipwhich]

So ultimately, Beck was supposed to be our stopgap QB? What was the point in signing Rex then if Mike felt so highly of Beck? Unless he thought we could both win now and rebuild all at the same time w/ Rex. Then again, I dunno. He had to have foreseen the problems w/ Rex.

You need 2 qb's who you think can run your offense.

[brandymac27]

Personally I don't think Mike staked his reputation on our offense. I think he decided none of the QB's to draft were right for him, and he looked at this as year two in a 5 year plan.

He knew after year one our defense was terrible, and he couldn't fix it all in one year.

Then why not just stick w/ McNabb...or even Campbell? It's not like Rex was a huge improvement. I know hindsight is 20/20 but still.

---------- Post added October-20th-2011 at 11:41 PM ----------

Not to Mike Shanahan it isn't. Mike could give you a long list of reasons why John Beck will likely work in his scheme but Todd Collins couldn't. That's his job. He's been making those judgments for many years.

He can't be certain of his opinion because there are some important factors that can only be judged by putting the QB under fire.

That's my point. Neither of them, especially Beck, have played enough in the NFL to have any "long lists" available in order to make a legitimate decision on whether or not he should be starting caliber material.

But, ultimately, I want us to succeed, so I hope you're right.

---------- Post added October-20th-2011 at 11:43 PM ----------

You need 2 qb's who you think can run your offense.

How could he have seriously thought Rex could run this offense?

[Oldfan]

...That's my point. Neither of them, especially Beck, have played enough in the NFL to have any "long lists" available in order to make a legitimate decision on whether or not he should be starting caliber material.

You are missing the point. Have you ever read a scouting report on a college QB? They give their opinions on a long list of tangible and intangible factors. Mike can do the same thing with John Beck, Todd Collins, or any QB, college or pro, but he does it better than the scout because he has worked with some of the best coaches in the business, like Bill Walsh. And he's worked with some of the best QBs in the business also.

[brandymac27]

You are missing the point. Have you ever read a scouting report on a college QB? They give their opinions on a long list of tangible and intangible factors. Mike can do the same thing, but he does it better than the scout because he has worked with some of the best coaches in the business, like Bill Walsh. And he's worked with some of the best QBs in the business also.

I can only hope you're right about Beck. I'll be cheering my butt off for him on Sunday. The only issue I have is that he's an unknown. Sometimes w/ guys like him, you hit the jackpot, other times you fail miserably. Hopefully, Mike hit the jackpot, or this is gonna be a very long 3 months.

[Skinsinparadise]

I can only hope you're right about Beck. I'll be cheering my butt off for him on Sunday. The only issue I have is that he's an unknown. Sometimes w/ guys like him, you hit the jackpot, other times you fail miserably. Hopefully, Mike hit the jackpot, or this is gonna be a very long 3 months.

We got the 32nd ranked Qb in the NFL, the bar isn't set that high. i think Beck at the very least will be better than Rex.

[SkinsFTW]

Personally I don't think Mike staked his reputation on our offense. I think he decided none of the QB's to draft were right for him, and he looked at this as year two in a 5 year plan.

He knew after year one our defense was terrible, and he couldn't fix it all in one year.

Yeah same here. I don't think he gives a **** what all the people babbling about every move think about his decisions. And he didn't see the point in keeping a QB like McNabb around who he already knew wasn't going to put in the effort.

He'll get his franchise QB when he's there, which is a lot better than trading up and losing an entire draft, or watching the defense totally suck and doing nothing for it and drafting a guy that he probably didn't like at the 10th pick.