When will we EVER learn? Redskins fans, some of the biggest hypocrites around .....

[bedlamVR]

SkinsTilIDie is 10000X correct - sorry but he is . You cannot put a team out with the resources the Redskins have at their disposal which cannot be competitive .

I am sick of the 2-14, 0-16 talk would be a good thing because as many have said that would see the team blown up and go through a nother set of coaches and another year of uncertantty and another year of sucking (or more) even if we managed to get Luck in the process...

I think we are a better team than we were last year - For one we really do know where the holes are - bringing in a franchise QB solved nothing last season and it is clear both Shanahans like QB who colour inside the lines both in the game and on the practice field . We are going with plan B at QB it seems and maybe bring in an uber rookie in 2012 .

We know nothing you can do will cagoll Haynsworth into playing - It was something I do not think the coaches were really all that aware of in 2010 - i mean the extent of which he did not want to play - Brining in Franklin and or Jenkins to mix in with the youth on the line will be a good thing in the long run .

At CB we have to do something to replace Rogers - it is just not necessary to bring in the biggest (and hardest to spell) names in at the position . We need someone to fit the scheme . Same on the O-line ..

The problem with the fan base is some are so violently opposed to FA thanks to the mistakes of the past they would be fine with us loosing (in thery) right up until the point it becomes a reality and 0-3 or 0-5 it becomes more and more difficult to see the light at the end of the tunnel . Bring in the FA- build depth - get better - thats how every other team opperates (why not us?)

[Oldfan]

SkinsTilIDie ~ The notion that if we go 6-10 or 8-8, we will miss out on a franchise quarterback, is absolutely ridiculous.

The lower we draft, the lower the odds of getting good players out of the draft. That’s obvious. So, while getting a good QB out of the draft is still possible if we draft lower, it is also less likely.

Going 1-15, 2-14, etc. will be a much bigger detriment to this franchise than going 6-10.

Nonsense. The win-now fans, the lovers of mediocrity, will gripe, but who cares?

This means that all of the youngsters that so many seem to want to play 100% of the snaps for us -- Kevin Barnes, Robert Henson, Perry Riley, Leonard Henkerson, Jarvis Jenkins, Chris Neild, etc. etc. etc. -- this means they all suck.

And, if they don’t suck, we will win a few more games. What’s your point?

You know what? Youngsters don't need to play every snap to develop.

They don’t need to play every snap, but obviously playing more snaps will develop them faster if they have what it takes.

A 2-14 season does more to impact the culture, fostering a culture of losing, that we, frankly, cannot afford to have happen to our young players.

You develop a winning culture by winning football games. You win football games mainly by having better players than your opponents. In the NFL, you develop a roster mainly through the draft not by overpaying big names in free agency.

Who did Kareem Moore have push him in practice? He was given the starting job in training camp. He was in essence the only free safety on the roster until, what, Macho Harris? Likewise, he underperformed all year. It's not like OJ Atogwe is going to ensure that Moore doesn't see the field this year. If anything, Atogwe will push him in practice every day, give him some veteran guidance and teach him some tricks of the trade. And if/when Atogwe goes down, then we have a fairly capable backup to come in and contribute.

Moore has a position coach. He doesn’t need veteran guidance from the guy who is destined to play the bulk of the snaps at FS. And, if Moore can’t cut it, then we ought to be trying to to find another young guy who can.

Does anyone really believe that a rookie will come into the meeting room in week 13 coming off a win during a tough 5-7 season with the same enthusiasm coming off another loss in a 2-11 season?

It doesn’t make a damn bit of difference whether he’s enthusiastic or not. What matters is that he learns to play to the best of his potential.

Does anyone really believe that good habits can be developed when you're losing week in and week out?

Of course you can, the kind of player you want hates losing so he’s driven to get better.

We need to build off of last season. We need veterans to show our youth how to play the game, how to conduct themselves in and out of the lockerroom, how to study, how to analyze film, and so forth. Coaches can't do everything.

The coaches are paid to teach and to motivate. A good team develops its good veterans from within. It doesn’t try to find them by picking over players other teams have deemed expendable in free agency.

If Mike Shanahan placed as much value on veteran leadership as you do, Rock Cartwright would still be here.

---------- Post added July-11th-2011 at 08:00 AM ----------

Belichick is the best in the business with regard to manipulating the draft. He's always five steps ahead of everyone else. It's a model we will never be able to duplicate. Belichick and Kraft are simply light years ahead in just about every facet of the draft process to that of Shanahan, Allen and Snyder. They're just that good. I'm agreeing with you, but we will never be in their league in the draft regard.

Belichik's model is obvious. I don't see any reason that it can't be duplicated. Green Bay and Pittsburgh do pretty much the same thing and get similar results. New Orleans has been getting similar results from the draft since Mickey Loomis became their GM.

[KingGibbs]

We are in no position to just sit idle come the FA period. With the roster we have right now, we will be one of the worst teams in the NFL. I am against signing that "big name" FA but I also know that we will need some serious help from the secondary to the O-line. To expect our draft picks to simply step in and become instant contributors is delusional.

Like I said, we need help and have no choice but to dip into the FA pool. I just hope they do it in a manner to where the players fit our specific needs.

If you think Shannahan is interested in "rebuilding" and just ignoring improving the team through FA? Again, you are delusional.

[Oldfan]

...The problem the Skins have had in the past is signing free agents who could produce to the level of their contract...

All NFL teams have the same problem because the free agent is likely to sign with the high bidder... and the high bidder is likely to be the team which most overrates the player's value.

Click this link for a full discussion on "Why Free Agents Disappoint"

---------- Post added July-11th-2011 at 08:51 AM ----------

We are in no position to just sit idle come the FA period.

I haven't read a single poster saying that we should entirely ignore free agency.

[KingGibbs]

---------- Post added July-11th-2011 at 08:51 AM ----------

[/color]I haven't read a single poster saying that we should entirely ignore free agency.

Give it time OF. Give it time. Someone will suggest it.

[MartinC]

I haven't read a single poster saying that we should entirely ignore free agency.

They are out there.

I think THIS year is the one year to abandon FA.

[Oldfan]

They are out there.

Okay, I'll concede your point. The one you posted is the first I've seen in several threads on this topic. That certainly isn't the consensus argument of those opposed to the way the Redskins have handled free agency in the past.

I don't think it's a good idea to rule out ANY source of talent. Trading draft picks for vets, free agency... either can be a source for a player in his prime who can be a bargain signing; but these are rare exceptions to the general rules.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

What NFL teams needed to hit "rock bottom" in order to win a title?

The Colts did, got Manning, and that made all the difference.

As for the rest? Not the Pats. They were mediocre under Carrol but it's not like a bunch of Top 5 picks made them great. The Steelers were fortunate that their one crappy year this decade coincided with Roethlisberger being available as that allowed them to fill their one historically glaring need. The Saints? I guess it depends on how you define rock bottom. Breesus signed with them almost as a religious mission.

I've noticed this on the NBA and NHL threads. Fans seem to think that the approach to winning in one sport applies to all sports. In the NBA, the only way to get out of mediocrity is either to sign a top five player or draft a top five player. And the easiest way to draft a top five player is to stink on ice. But in the NBA, one player can add 20 to 25 wins to your team. In the NHL, the way to win is to stink for a few years, gather a bunch of talent, and have them develop together. That's what the Caps did. Leonsis apparently wants to use that strategy in the NBA. I don't think it will work. Getting a bunch of young talent in the NBA will more likely turn you into the Clippers instead of the Thunder. The NFL requires its own strategy, because the roster is just so damn big.

The Steelers, Pats, and Packers to a degree work on volume. Lots of picks. Lots of mid-level free agents. Lots of depth. Superstars are good, but superstars break down. It would be better to have three pretty good guards as opposed to one awesome guard. Injuries and the salary cap dictate that.

[Burgold]

I agree. NFL is such a team sport that getting that No. 1 rdraft pick isn't nearly as important. Drafting well in rounds 3-5 is just as important as getting a high pick. A great Qb with no line and no receivers or running game will be useless. How many top qbs never pan out? Is it because they were no good or the talent and coaching around them made it impossible for them to prosper?

Last to first doesn't happen all that often in the NFL. The closest example is probably the Saints, but the kicker wasn't that no. 1 draft pick, but the trade.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I agree. NFL is such a team sport that getting that No. 1 rdraft pick isn't nearly as important. Drafting well in rounds 3-5 is just as important as getting a high pick. A great Qb with no line and no receivers or running game will be useless. How many top qbs never pan out? Is it because they were no good or the talent and coaching around them made it impossible for them to prosper?

Last to first doesn't happen all that often in the NFL. The closest example is probably the Saints, but the kicker wasn't that no. 1 draft pick, but the trade.

The Saints made the jump remarkably fast as well. There was no rebuilding mode. They just rebuilt and were good.

[MartinC]

Okay, I'll concede your point. The one you posted is the first I've seen in several threads on this topic. That certainly isn't the consensus argument of those opposed to the way the Redskins have handled free agency in the past.

I don't think it's a good idea to rule out ANY source of talent. Trading draft picks for vets, free agency... either can be a source for a player in his prime who can be a bargain signing; but these are rare exceptions to the general rules.

I agree that very few people are saying dont use free agency at all but there are quite a few who edge towards that extreme. Thats not too surprising given how we have been burned in the past in free agency but its short sighted. We need to use free agency better than we have in the past not forgo it as that would leave us at a huge competitve disadvantge.

This years free agents class is huge and filled with younger starting calibe players who can really help out a developing team if we play our cards well. Looking for the right scheme fit, age profile and avoiding splurging on the very few headliners who will command mega bucks is the key IMO.

[Oldfan]

LKB ~ What NFL teams needed to hit "rock bottom" in order to win a title?

LKB ~ The worst thing is fans that don't understand that building a roster through nothing but the draft is just as idiotic. We should not abandon free agency all together. And that is a sentiment I see here more than "Fire up Redskins One, coach."

You are taking the weakest possible absolute positions to argue against.

Dynasties have been built starting from rock bottom, but it’s not a requirement. You have to play the hand dealt with a view to the long-term.

And, sometimes, you can find a 26-27 year-old free agent who will turn out to be useful in a rebuilding effort. They are rare exceptions.

Sometimes you can trade a draft pick for a 26-27 year old starter, but again this is an exceptional situation.

---------- Post added July-11th-2011 at 10:10 AM ----------

I agree that very few people are saying dont use free agency at all but there are quite a few who edge towards that extreme. Thats not too surprising given how we have been burned in the past in free agency but its short sighted. We need to use free agency better than we have in the past not forgo it as that would leave us at a huge competitve disadvantge.

This years free agents class is huge and filled with younger starting calibe players who can really help out a developing team if we play our cards well. Looking for the right scheme fit, age profile and avoiding splurging on the very few headliners who will command mega bucks is the key IMO.

That sounds fine, but what age profile do you have in mind?

Let's use 30 year-old Atogwe as a test case. What's your opinion on signing him?

I oppose that kind of transaction for a team like ours.

[The Tris]

If we are really trying to make this a black and white debate, either to one side or the other, the extreme that hurts us the least in the long run is signing no big free agents, rather than every big name free agent.

But that's not the debate, the debate is 1) what exactly is the meaning of balance in FA, 2) what kinda of FA moves should a rebuilding team make, and 3) how do you build a team the right way?

FA is an important part of team building, and without it teams would be forced to draft for need (which is a dumb strategy in and of itself). And FA is a broad term, that describes both the players getting the $100 M contracts as well as the one year veteran contracts, and even the UDFA market.

For me, signing older players to top 10 at their position money is not the type of FA we need to engage in at this time. We need to sign one big name starter, and spend the remaining cap room on veteran depth and UDFAs.

Unfortunately, the majority of fans disagree with me, and would prefer an offseason like this:

OJ Atogwe, FS: 5 years, $26 M

Ryan Harris, RT: 6 years, $30 M

Jonathan Joseph, CB: 6 years, $72 M

Aubrayo Franklin, NT: 4 years, $32 M

Davin Joseph, G: 6 years, $42 M

Santana Moss, WR: 3 years, $16.5 M

Rex Grossman, QB: 2 years, $8 M

That makes Atogwe, both Josephs, and Franklin among the 5 highest paid players at their respective positions. That also doles out $226.5 M in contracts in one offseason, dwarfing even the most expensive offseason ever under Vinny Cerrato.

That kind of offseason represents neither balance nor "building the right way."

[AKM311]

OJ Atogwe, FS: 5 years, $26 M

Ryan Harris, RT: 6 years, $30 M

Jonathan Joseph, CB: 6 years, $72 M

Aubrayo Franklin, NT: 4 years, $32 M

Davin Joseph, G: 6 years, $42 M

Santana Moss, WR: 3 years, $16.5 M

Rex Grossman, QB: 2 years, $8 M

Remove Jonathan Joseph and Davin Joseph's contract and That seems like a solid group to bring in.

I have zero issues with the other contracts. Maybe Franklin, but would have to see the absolute structure and also, the cap impacts in the future.

[Crazy Levi]

We're about to enter year two of the new regime. A new regime that has brought about change from top to bottom in this organization I had long lost hope of EVER happening again. No longer are we a league wide laughing stock; but a respectable, professionally run organization again.

This is where I stopped reading. The Redskins are STILL a laughing stock. Not everybody has gotten the memo about how suddenly everything is changed. Snyder could fire Shannahan 5 months from now and it's back to square one.

Sorry, but it will take a while for this organization to be "respectable" again.

[The Tris]

Remove Jonathan Joseph and Davin Joseph's contract and That seems like a solid group to bring in.

That would result in us signing 5 FAs, ages when the season starts of 30, 26, 31, 32, 31.

[In The Barrel]

[

The Saints made the jump remarkably fast as well. There was no rebuilding mode. They just rebuilt and were good.

The Saints did it by two ways - they built their both their lines up and added arguably the best QB in the NFC in Brees. The Skins biggest issue has been QB play - without a franchise or up and coming franchise QB in the NFCE you will be continued losing franchise. Every single expert in the NFL will tell you that. Campbell= bad to middle of the pack McNabb= middle of the pack and Sexy Rexy = middle of he pack. Take in effect OL play and middle of the road WR talent and you have a very ineffective team and losing records. Easy as that. Even if he defense steps up you will be more than likely looking at an 8-8 season. Hell even teams with great WRs and good-becoming great QBs - like the Texans will finish 8-8 most of the time. The Saints instantly became good when Brees stepped up to the mike in his Saints uniform.

Skins thought it was coming with McNAbb - but it didnt work out. WIth Beck and Rexy you have more of the same - good defense or not in our Division. Get Luck and you have a possibility IF ( and that is again still an IF) he pans out the way everyone thinks he will. Anything else and probably looking at middle of the road for a LONG time. IMHO

[Mahons21]

That would result in us signing 5 FAs, ages when the season starts of 30, 26, 31, 32, 31.

2 of those FA's were with the Skins last year.

We're talking about adding Franklin, Atogwe, and Harris, which really isn't that big of a splash

-Two of these players have played with our coaching staff before, have experience within similar schemes and are an ideal fit

-Franklin is growing on me. Bryant looked good last season but expecting a 7th rd draft pick to even have a rotational role their first season might be a bit optimistic, so having Bryant/Franklin might be the wiser choice.

[The Tris]

We're talking about adding Franklin, Atogwe, and Harris, which really isn't that big of a splash

-Two of these players have played with our coaching staff before, have experience within similar schemes and are an ideal fit

I like the potential Harris signing far more than the Atogwe signing, but can justify both if that is where the big names stop. That would be the extend of the expensive FA acquisitions for me.

-Franklin is growing on me. Bryant looked good last season but expecting a 7th rd draft pick to even have a rotational role their first season might be a bit optimistic, so having Bryant/Franklin might be the wiser choice.

If the 4 for $8 M per year number for Franklin is accurate, we would be making a 31 year old the higest paid NT in league history.

[jflow78]

I haven't read a single poster saying that we should entirely ignore free agency.

Then you haven't read.

They may not have said these words specifically, "Entirely ignore FA", but when anyone brings up a sensible signing, say Ryan Harris who fits the scheme, wouldn't cost a ton, and is still 26 and not yet in hit prime at a position that we desperately need help on a squad where we have ONE starter we can count on (Trent Williams), then several people on here bash their idea.

[Oldfan]

OJ Atogwe, FS: 5 years, $26 M

Ryan Harris, RT: 6 years, $30 M

Jonathan Joseph, CB: 6 years, $72 M

Aubrayo Franklin, NT: 4 years, $32 M

Davin Joseph, G: 6 years, $42 M

Santana Moss, WR: 3 years, $16.5 M

Rex Grossman, QB: 2 years, $8 M

Green Bay and Pittsburgh couldn't afford to sign those players. Poor ****s.

Belichik wouldn't spend the money to sign those players. Cheap SOB.

God, I'm glad we have the money to spend to make us great!

(yes, this was sarcasm)

[jflow78]

I like the potential Harris signing far more than the Atogwe signing, but can justify both if that is where the big names stop. That would be the extend of the expensive FA acquisitions for me.

If the 4 for $8 M per year number for Franklin is accurate, we would be making a 31 year old the higest paid NT in league history.

Harris is NOT a "big name" contrary to what lots of people here think. Just because he shows up on ES frequently doesn't mean anyone else in the league knows who this guy is (other than Denver fans).

I agree with you on Franklin, if he's going to cost us the highest paid NT contract in NFL history then NO WAY. There are other options out there.

[Mahons21]

I like the potential Harris signing far more than the Atogwe signing, but can justify both if that is where the big names stop. That would be the extend of the expensive FA acquisitions for me.

What don't you like about Atogwe?

If the 4 for $8 M per year number for Franklin is accurate, we would be making a 31 year old the higest paid NT in league history.

Point is moot until we actually know what contract he signs.

[jflow78]

Green Bay and Pittsburgh couldn't afford to sign those players. Poor ****s.

Belichik wouldn't spend the money to sign those players. Cheap SOB.

God, I'm glad we have the money to spend to make us great!

You seem to be forgetting that even Bill Belichick has gone on FA signing binges. The Pats actually sign TONS of FAs, they just don't go and purchase the BIGGEST name FA every off-season, though they do occasionally.

[KCClybun]

What don't you like about Atogwe?

He doesn't like that he's thirty. Because, you know, no one over the age of 30 has ever produced a worth while season in the NFL after signing a fair deal. Or something.