When will we EVER learn? Redskins fans, some of the biggest hypocrites around .....

[Oldfan]

Well, bringing in Brunell kept a young Patrick Ramsey from developing on our team...and when he left here, he--oh, wait.

Bringing in Portis kept Ladell Betts from developing, and when he left here, he--oh, wait.

Trading for Santana Moss definitely hindered the development of the young Taylor Jacobs and Darnerien Mccants...because when they left here, they--oh, wait.

Signing London Fletcher obviously stunted the growth of Matt Sinclair...because after leaving the Redskins, he--oh, wait.

The signing of Fred Smoot stopped the development of John Eubanks and Leigh Torrence in their tracks, because after leaving here they both went on to become starters in--oh, wait.

Antwaan Randle-El most definitely ruined the development of Devin Thomas by taking playing time away from him...because when he left the team, he--oh, wait.

Getting Donovan McNabb and Rex Grossman stunted the growth of Colt Brennan like no other...because he went on to--oh, wait.

You are very good at making lists. How about making a list of the free agency signings that worked out well and those that didn't. How about making one of the trades for picks that worked out well versus those that didn't.

You're right; trading for McNabb didn't stunt Colt's growth, but if we had used the second round pick we traded on Nate Allen, as the Eagles did, then we would have solved our FS need for the long term making the short-tem fix of Atogwe unnecessary.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

vs. Tampa - lost 17-16 and Gano missed 2 FGs

Total aside and totally off topic, but the boneheaded OC as much as Gano cost us the Tampa game for me. Torrain had a career day in one half that day, running all over the Buccs for fun. And when they adjusted at H/T to finally stuffing the run, instead of mixing it up with play action etc. he just played right into their hands with more of the same. That was a shockingly called second half.

Hail.

[The Tris]

I do find it funny, though, that when Vinny drafted a TE when we already had a very good vet TE on the roster, nobody on here applauded it as a smart move lol ...

The move that I applauded at the time and still to this day was when he had the forsight to draft a replacement for Carlos Rogers several years before Los was to leave as a FA - so we could, you know, develop him on the bench behind the vet - as so many have suggested is the best way to develop young players. That was a Belichick-esque draft pick, pretty shocking actually.

Now that Barnes has developed on the bench and in sub packages for several years, we are going to - wait for it - sign a FA CB to start.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I guess it depends on the position. LB was a bad example since you need to play at least 3-4 of them in every single game. What if we went out and signed a high-priced featured RB via FA. Do you really believe that if a RB was the BPA in the following draft, we'd draft him? I don't.

But as you said, depends on the position. A lot of teams won't draft a RB even if he's the BPA anyway, because you can get productive RBs in damn near every round. However, in your scenario I can easily see teams drafting an RB in the 2nd or 3rd round...hell, the Cowboys have drafted numerous RBs in the top 3 rounds over the past 7 years ...I doubt them signing a free agent RB would have altered their actions much.

[Mahons21]

Why is the question so specific?

The question is suited to the claim.

Claim: Redskins use of FA kept young talent at the bottom of the depth chart.

If that were the case, who are these players? If you give me an example of a player that hasn't succeeded elsewhere all you've shown is a player that was on the bottom of our depth chart because of their level of talent. Therefore you'd have to show a player who left the Redskins after being at the bottom of the roster, AND went out to have success else.

As I said Ryan Clark is the only player that comes to mind.

I would agree that I don't know of any gems that were left rotting on our bench. However, bringing in FAs alters draft strategies and keeps you from signing younger players at those positions.

Maybe from signing a first round player at those positions but it shouldn't prevent a team from taking a developmental player who could have a role on the team somewhere down the line. The problem is we traded those draft picks away, and never drafted anyone.

So, it's not only the players you currently have on your roster but the potential players you would have taken had the FAs not been on your roster as well.

So long as the draft picks are chosen this is irrelevant.

If you just spent $ on ILB and there's more of a need at corner, you take the corner in the 3rd rd. Either way the Redskins have a developmental player at a position lacking depth.

That's similar to the trading picks for veterans. Instead of McNabb, for example, we could have had two players picked relatively high in the draft (2nd and 3rd round). The same principle applies if you spend $50M for a FA linebacker. Odds are, you're not going to draft the best available player if it happens to be a guy who plays LB since you've married yourself to that player/contract for a while.

Same can be said for a first round draft pick, after investing your first rounder in a position you're probably going to alter your draft strategy around that pick the following season, you've marred yourself to that play contract for awhile and they haven't proven a thing in the NFL.

Same applies for players already on the team, the Pats/Colts/Steelers/Packers aren't going to take a QB in the 1st rd even if they're the BPA. So should we now be blaming these QB's for altering the draft strategy of their team?

[Califan007 The Constipated]

You are very good at making lists. How about making a list of the free agency signings that worked out well and those that didn't.

Those have been done ad nauseum lol :cool:...

Besides, the question was about how signing/obtaining veteran players keep young talent from developing...and he asked how many times has that happened on the Redskins.

How about making one of the trades for picks that worked out well versus those that didn't.

I assume you mean trading our draft picks FOR players...which I've already said has been a bigger hindrance to the Skins developing of young talent than merely signing veteran FAs.

You're right; trading for McNabb didn't stunt Colt's growth, but if we had used the second round pick we traded on Nate Allen, as the Eagles did, then we would have solved our FS need for the long term making the short-tem fix of Atogwe unnecessary.

Couldn't agree more. That's why I've been saying all along that trading draft picks is the real culprit, not signing FAs who are 30 years old....not veterans who somehow keep young players from developing.

---------- Post added July-11th-2011 at 12:11 PM ----------

The move that I applauded at the time and still to this day was when he had the forsight to draft a replacement for Carlos Rogers several years before Los was to leave as a FA - so we could, you know, develop him on the bench behind the vet - as so many have suggested is the best way to develop young players. That was a Belichick-esque draft pick, pretty shocking actually.

Now that Barnes has developed on the bench and in sub packages for several years, we are going to - wait for it - sign a FA CB to start.

We are? Who are we signing?

[SonnyandSam]

Your post assumes that London Fletcher is the norm for aging players, when he is actually the exception.

LF is a BAMF because of his exceptional-ness, not because he is a run of the mill player.

Gee….seems to be a lot of talented old feeble football players on the two latest Pro Bowl Rosters. Go ahead and make that argument again that players over 29 are too old to be on a good football team.

2011 Pro Bowl Rosters

>29 outnumbered <29 by 61 to 54

NFC Pro Bowl Players Too OLD for the junior GMs on Extremeskins

Michael Vick (31)

Drew Brees (32)

Michael Turner (29)

Ovie Mughelli (31)

Roddy White (29)

Jason Whitten (29)

Tony Gonzalez (35)

Jordan Gross (30)

Tyson Clabo (29)

Chris Snee (29)

Andre Gurode (32)

Julius Peppers (31)

John Abraham (33)

Jay Ratliff (29)

Justin Smith (31)

Darnell Dockett (30)

Jonathon Vilma (30)

London Fletcher (36)

EJ Henderson (30)

Antoine Winfield (34)

Matt McBriar (32)

David Akers (36)

Lance Briggs (30)

Jason Peters (29)

Shaun O’Hara (34)

Asante Samuel (30)

Brian Urlacher (33)

Kevin Williams (30)

Chad Clifton (35)

Charles Woodson (34)

AFC Pro Bowl Players Too OLD for the junior GMs on Extremeskins

Phillip Rivers (29)

Peyton Manning (35)

Matt Cassel (29)

Vonta Leach (29)

Reggie Wayne (32)

Brandon Lloyd (30)

Wes Welker (30)

Matt Light (33)

Kris Dielman (30)

Logan Mankins (29)

Brian Waters (34)

Jeff Saturday (36)

Robert Mathis (30)

Jason Babin (31)

Vince Wilfork (29)

Cameron Wake (29)

Shaun Phillips (30)

Ray Lewis (36)

Champ Bailey (33)

Shane Lechler (34)

Billy Cundiff (31)

John Denney (32)

Nnamdi Asomugha (30)

Tom Brady (33)

Antonio Gates (31)

Dwight Freeney (31)

Richard Seymour (31)

James Harrison (33)

Brett Keisel (32)

Troy Polamalu (30)

Ed Reed (32)

[The Tris]

Go ahead and make that argument again that players over 29 are too old to be on a good football team.

Please show me where that argument was made.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Gee….seems to be a lot of talented old feeble football players on the two latest Pro Bowl Rosters. Go ahead and make that argument again that players over 29 are too old to be on a good football team.

2011 Pro Bowl Rosters

>29 outnumbered <29 by 61 to 54

NFC Pro Bowl Players Too OLD for the junior GMs on Extremeskins

Michael Vick (31)

Drew Brees (32)

Michael Turner (29)

Ovie Mughelli (31)

Roddy White (29)

Jason Whitten (29)

Tony Gonzalez (35)

Jordan Gross (30)

Tyson Clabo (29)

Chris Snee (29)

Andre Gurode (32)

Julius Peppers (31)

John Abraham (33)

Jay Ratliff (29)

Justin Smith (31)

Darnell Dockett (30)

Jonathon Vilma (30)

London Fletcher (36)

EJ Henderson (30)

Antoine Winfield (34)

Matt McBriar (32)

David Akers (36)

Lance Briggs (30)

Jason Peters (29)

Shaun O’Hara (34)

Asante Samuel (30)

Brian Urlacher (33)

Kevin Williams (30)

Chad Clifton (35)

Charles Woodson (34)

AFC Pro Bowl Players Too OLD for the junior GMs on Extremeskins

Phillip Rivers (29)

Peyton Manning (35)

Matt Cassel (29)

Vonta Leach (29)

Reggie Wayne (32)

Brandon Lloyd (30)

Wes Welker (30)

Matt Light (33)

Kris Dielman (30)

Logan Mankins (29)

Brian Waters (34)

Jeff Saturday (36)

Robert Mathis (30)

Jason Babin (31)

Vince Wilfork (29)

Cameron Wake (29)

Shaun Phillips (30)

Ray Lewis (36)

Champ Bailey (33)

Shane Lechler (34)

Billy Cundiff (31)

John Denney (32)

Nnamdi Asomugha (30)

Tom Brady (33)

Antonio Gates (31)

Dwight Freeney (31)

Richard Seymour (31)

James Harrison (33)

Brett Keisel (32)

Troy Polamalu (30)

Ed Reed (32)

Eh, give me Marcus Mason over all of 'em put together!

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Outside of Brady, Brees and Manning by virtue of them being who they are, I wouldn't want anyone off of those rosters.

We're rebuilding for the long term. Not the here and now.

Hail.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Outside of Brady, Brees and Manning by virtue of them being who they are, I wouldn't want anyone off of those rosters.

We're rebuilding for the long term. Not the here and now.

Hail.

You wouldn't want Phillip Rivers?

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

You wouldn't want Phillip Rivers?

Did I miss Rivers? My poor oversight. Add him to the QB list.

Hail.

[KCClybun]

Why couldn’t the FS be filled via any other means?

I keep saying this and you keep ignoring it, or maybe you didn't see it; there was no one currently on the team that is a starting caliber free safety, nor anyone who is likely to get better. The 2011 NFL Draft was incredibly weak at the defensive back positions, but especially weak at the safety position, and weaker still at the position of free safety specifically. Kevin Barnes played well at free safety, but we may need him to play nickel corner, or in a worst case scenario, to be the starting corner opposite D-Hall, and out of all the young guys we have that played free safety, he was best. And Kareem Moore didn't play well, and it wasn't just because he was young and inexperienced; he's got poor fundamentals and makes the kind of mistakes that are unlikely to improved with experience.

No one available in the draft, no one who can play the position well on the team. So do you allow the young guy to keep playing and playing poorly just for the sake of having a young guy out there?

I don’t know. What I do know is that a 30-year old vet is very unlikely to be a long-term solution.

No one is saying that O.J is a long term solution. At best he's a four-five year stop gap. But he instantly improves the position (making the team better in the short term), while we look for another solution via the draft or via someone already on the team, (making us better in the long term).

Kareem Moore might not be the long term answer, but there’s a very high probability that Atogwe is only a short term answerr... and Moore comes cheaply.

Moore comes cheap, but he can't friggin' play. Double edged sword.

You plan is fine for a team like Green Bay, Pittsburgh or New England. Or maybe a team that is only a FS away from being championship caliber. Ours needs to generate more young talent before we can be that patient.

I wasn't aware the team was in a rush to do things.

Even WITH O.J Atogwe, the average age of everyone involved in our secondary is 25 years old. You make it seem as though we have some sort of decrepid, rapidly aging secondary. We have TONS of youth in the secondary right now. In fact, there's youth all over the football team if you don't operate with blinders on.

And I don't see what being "championship caliber" has to do with it. If you're argument is that we don't have enough young guys on the team, then that's not true; right now, we have a lot of guys under the age of 30. In fact, I'd say we have a majority of young men who are under thirty. Some of those guys aren't going to be ready for primetime yet. They're good prospects, worthy of being developed, but there is nothing wrong with two or three key free agent signings in areas where you don't feel you have someone on your football team that's going to come in and make you competitive.

Because the goal every offseason IS to get better. The goal of every season is to be competitive. And competitive doesn't mean that you're making playoff runs all the time, or even that you win all the time. It means that you're not a friggin' door mat for everyone, that teams aren't checking you off as an easy win.

I mean...there's a followable template for success. In fact, there's several, all around the league, of teams building their foundation with solid drafts to improve their depth, while making three or four free agent signings to help improve the football team at positions of need. The "start all the young guys" plan is fundamentally flawed, especially in a truncated offseason with what will be little classroom time, and isn't the way to build a successful football franchise.

Be wise with your money, sign free agents that fit your scheme and what you want to do, while affording your younger players every opportunity to play and even possibly beat out whatever free agents you may sign. Have OJ fill a hole, while guys like Gomes and Kareem Moore fight it out against one another to be the back-up, have them come into the game to spell Atogwe and come in on certain looks, and then if OJ does decline, we don't have to go draft another free safety and start from jump again and have depth at the position.

That way you fix a hole in the short-term while planning long-term.

[Oldfan]

The question is suited to the claim.

Claim: Redskins use of FA kept young talent at the bottom of the depth chart.

If that were the case, who are these players? If you give me an example of a player that hasn't succeeded elsewhere all you've shown is a player that was on the bottom of our depth chart because of their level of talent. Therefore you'd have to show a player who left the Redskins after being at the bottom of the roster, AND went out to have success else.

Antonio Pierce is the first one that comes to mind. We signed Jesse Armstead and Jerimiah Trotter to start and didn't find out until year three that he could play. By then, he was a cap casualty.

[addicted]

It seems you are the one that has decided to cop an attitude. Not me.

I am simply pointing out the flaws in your logic. If that angers you, I'm sorry.

Ok let me point out some of yours too since you think my logic is flawed

What's worse?

Me saying that your not the judge and jury for being able to use age as the measuring stick of a players ability to play at a high level

Or you insisting that your Mrs Cleo thinking you can?

One of us has lost his perspective about age. You'll say this:

Let's pretend that list isn't hugely flawed for a moment, and I count 30 of 100 players on that list as 30 or over.

30% of the very best players in the NFL according to your "math" are over 30. I doubt that number is that low. Wish I had time to list out the ages of those players to prove to you that the number is actually higher. Anyway 30% of the top players are over 30, yet you see no value in those guys. To me that's just dumb because your saying that because we aren't a superbowl contender in your mind that we can't use these players? Is it that only Superbowl contenders can use talented players or is it more so that your really stuck on your age discrimination problem and want to slice off a huge chunk of players for no other reason then how old they are? Since when did a team need to be a Superbowl contender to use quality players? Of course that makes no sense. Neither does any arguement based solely on the age of a person.

[Oldfan]

santanathe great ~ So your stance is essentially that that every free agent is overpaid. Well, I'll disagree. London Fletcher is not overpaid.

No, that’s not my position. That’s just an easier argument for you to handle.

[The article I quoted makes the case that unrestricted free agents are very likely to disappoint. That’s my position.

You can attack my position by debating the article with me.

[Chump Bailey]

That's why I've been saying all along that trading draft picks is the real culprit, not signing FAs who are 30 years old....not veterans who somehow keep young players from developing

Completely agree with you. Trading draft picks for veteran players served as the greatest detriment to the team's inability to build a solid foundation and have any semblance of depth. Joe Gibbs, VC, and Snyder giving away draft picks like they were expired car wash coupons or something was the problem. FA is not.

[addicted]

No, that’s not my position. That’s just an easier argument for you to handle.

[The article I quoted makes the case that unrestricted free agents are very likely to disappoint. That’s my position.

You can attack my position by debating the article with me.

Forget a hand picked article you agree with pal, Argue your own point...

Drew Brees

Does New Orleans go win that Superbowl without Drew Brees? I don't think so

Plexico Burress

Does New York go on to win that Superbowl against your beloved Patriots without Plexico? I don't think so

Reggie White

Does.....

Man I can go on and on. "Very likely to disappoint" means nothing. Exceptions to the rule exist. And every team goes out every year and signs free agents which means that you can't point to a single team as the bury the head in the sand crowd who ignores free agency. Even your favorite Patriots team is full of free agents every year. How do you explain that?

---------- Post added July-11th-2011 at 02:51 PM ----------

Completely agree with you. Trading draft picks for veteran players served as the greatest detriment to the team's inability to build a solid foundation and have any semblance of depth. Joe Gibbs, VC, and Snyder giving away draft picks like they were expired car wash coupons or something was the problem. FA is not.

I agree with both of you. Trading draft picks for old players is a doomed move unless you are a Superbowl contender. Targeting 30 year old Free Agents isn't the same thing and won't set the club back like we did when we had a draft of 4 players one year. Adding old guys to the team doesn't hurt if there is no one younger to step up

[The Tris]

Adding old guys to the team doesn't hurt if there is no one younger to step up

That's a pretty important caveat there, one which I think that is central to our disagreement.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

That's a pretty important caveat there, one which I think that is central to our disagreement.

Yes.

And I still contend that "no one younger to step up" should include guys currently on your roster and guys who could have potentially been added to your roster. Both categories can be blocked by a player making $35M guaranteed over 5 years since teams don't want to over-allocate their money at one position.

[The Tris]

30% of the very best players in the NFL according to your "math" are over 30.

I didn't realize counting was considered "math".

Anyway 30% of the top players are over 30, yet you see no value in those guys.

Like when SonnyandSam claimed I argued "that players over 29 are too old to be on a good football team", this is a complete and utter misrepresenation of my position.

I never said "30 year old NFL players have no value".

I said a rebuilding team should not sign 30 year old FA starters.

Theres a big difference.

[SonnyandSam]

The problem that some of you have is you think anyone "young" is automatically going to become a good or great player. The facts are quite simple, Most of those "young" players are out of the league in just 2-3 years. Why? Because they suck. The problem is figuring out WHICH "young" player is going to become a good or great player. Just because you draft young players does not mean you will automatically become a competitive team. You need to have a quality staff capable of evaluating talent, both young and older to have a playoff caliber team. The Redskins have not had quality talent evaluation over the past 10 years. Just how many of our draft picks turned out to be good to great players? I'm not making another list to prove my point. It should be obvious even to those who insist than any player over 28,29, 30 (take your pick) is over the hill. Many are proven talented players with 4-5 good years left.

If you want to load up on undrafted free agents and a few guys who have started a couple games in their career, the team will definitely be the Detroit Lions of the next decade.

[addicted]

That's a pretty important caveat there, one which I think that is central to our disagreement.

How so?

Explain please

[Chump Bailey]

The problem that some of you have is you think anyone "young" is automatically going to become a good or great player. The facts are quite simple, Most of those "young" players are out of the league in just 2-3 years. Why? Because they suck. The problem is figuring out WHICH "young" player is going to become a good or great player. Just because you draft young players does not mean you will automatically become a competitive team. You need to have a quality staff capable of evaluating talent, both young and older to have a playoff caliber team. The Redskins have not had quality talent evaluation over the past 10 years. Just how many of our draft picks turned out to be good to great players? I'm not making another list to prove my point. It should be obvious even to those who insist than any player over 28,29, 30 (take your pick) is over the hill. Many are proven talented players with 4-5 good years left.

If you want to load up on undrafted free agents and a few guys who have started a couple games in their career, the team will definitely be the Detroit Lions of the next decade.

Agree with this

[SonnyandSam]

I didn't realize counting was considered "math".

Like when SonnyandSam claimed I argued "that players over 29 are too old to be on a good football team", this is a complete and utter misrepresenation of my position.

I never said "30 year old NFL players have no value".

I said a rebuilding team should not sign 30 year old FA starters.

Theres a big difference.

But you cannot rebuild ONLY with young players. You need veterans to show them the way; both how to play their position and how to win. Like I said, it does us no good to load up on undrafted free agents and 26-27 year olds who can't start on their current team. There simply are not that many diamonds in the rough.

At 7 draft picks a year, a GM would have to draft a starter from every draft pick for 4 years. Won't and cannot happen. You know darn well that any player over the 3rd round is a crap shoot.

You cannot "coach up" players with less than NFL caliber talent on a regular basis. You may get one once every couple years.

I'm tired of hearing we ONLY need to draft and only get young guys when no one including you ever puts up a list of names to build on for the Redskins. We have very little young talent to start with and any real young talent from other teams are signed to contracts. Most free agents are at least 26 years old and most are closer to 30 or over 30. Go ahead and show me a list of 45 young players you would start a roster with?