When will we EVER learn? Redskins fans, some of the biggest hypocrites around .....

[addicted]

I said a rebuilding team should not sign 30 year old FA starters.

Theres a big difference.

I disagree with that. The core group of guys should be younger but when we were using a 35+ year old long snapper, punter, kicker what difference did it make how old they were? Not every position on a rebuilding team is as important as another.

[CommDownMan]

I didn't realize counting was considered "math".

Every year you get older you add 1. Key word being add

Like when SonnyandSam claimed I argued "that players over 29 are too old to be on a good football team", this is a complete and utter misrepresenation of my position.

I never said "30 year old NFL players have no value".

I said a rebuilding team should not sign 30 year old FA starters.

Theres a big difference.

The argument should be signing long big contracts of guys already 30. I think both Rex Grossman (30) for 2 and Phillip Buchanon (30) for 1 year deals respectively would be valuable to this team right now. Know the system and fill a hole cheap. While either may end up a bench guy, this year we need some guys that know the system and can be ready to start early.

Guys like Jenkins and Franklin would be 34-35 at the end of the deal and fading. Those guys would carry huge $$$ at that point, which leads to....dead cap money. We don't need to keep doing that.

[The Tris]

How so?

Explain please

It's pretty clear that we have some positions that we are completely devoid of any young talent that could possible start an NFL game this year. Those are the positions we should look to be adding FA starters with the intention that those players we would sign would be long term (5 year) solutions.

I have previously said I believe those positions to be RT, RG, and QB. (Although depending on where you see KL and/or WM ending up, we could be looking for a LG or a C, based on where their highest and best uses are respectively)

It is also clear that we have some positions where there is either a "young" player who has demonstrated competence or a highly drafted rookie. Those are positions where we should not be adding FA starters (despite the fact that in most cases the FA would be an upgrade for 2011).

I have previously said I believe those positions to be CB, ILB, NT, DE, WR, and RB.

[AKM311]

Guys like Jenkins and Franklin would be 34-35 at the end of the deal and fading. Those guys would carry huge $$$ at that point, which leads to....dead cap money. We don't need to keep doing that.

Not true about dead cap money.

If they sign 4 year deals and play 4, they have no future dead cap space. Which is why the length of the deal for 30 yr old vets is more important than anything else.

What we have been used to seeing in the past has been 6 yr large contracts. We know the player will only play 3-4 years at a high level. Which is what leads to dead cap space because 2-3 years are remaining on the contract.

---------- Post added July-11th-2011 at 08:16 PM ----------

It is also clear that we have some positions where there is either a "young" player who has demonstrated competence or a highly drafted rookie. Those are positions where we should not be adding FA starters (despite the fact that in most cases the FA would be an upgrade for 2011).

I have previously said I believe those positions to be CB, ILB, NT, DE, WR, and RB.

Outside of NT, I agree with you on those positions. All though I do believe you get as many CBs who can play as possible. They are one position that constantly needs depth as nagging injuries are often.

Oh yea, one question....Does your WR comment mean don't re-sign Moss or any other FA WR?

[KCClybun]

But you cannot rebuild ONLY with young players. You need veterans to show them the way; both how to play their position and how to win. Like I said, it does us no good to load up on undrafted free agents and 26-27 year olds who can't start on their current team. There simply are not that many diamonds in the rough.

At 7 draft picks a year, a GM would have to draft a starter from every draft pick for 4 years. Won't and cannot happen. You know darn well that any player over the 3rd round is a crap shoot.

You cannot "coach up" players with less than NFL caliber talent on a regular basis. You may get one once every couple years.

I'm tired of hearing we ONLY need to draft and only get young guys when no one including you ever puts up a list of names to build on for the Redskins. We have very little young talent to start with and any real young talent from other teams are signed to contracts. Most free agents are at least 26 years old and most are closer to 30 or over 30. Go ahead and show me a list of 45 young players you would start a roster with?

It also ignores that we do have quite a few young players.

The other part is that we don't see practice, aren't in meeting rooms, etc.,. What you see a lot of fans around here say is "We should just put them on the field so we can say if they can play!". Well..they play all the time in practice. If they aren't good enough to work their way up to the main roster or to being able to get looked at during practice, what in the bluest of hells makes everyone think they'll magically transform into awesome players on the field?

The mentality around here is "Well I have to see it with my own eyes before I believe so and so isn't a good player".

[Oldfan]

NLC1054 ~ I keep saying this and you keep ignoring it, or maybe you didn't see it; there was no one currently on the team that is a starting caliber free safety, nor anyone who is likely to get better.

I misunderstood your orginial statement. Now that I understand your requirement of being a starting caliber FS (I presume that means an average NFL free safety) I understand your comment. Here are my counterpoints on that:

1) Even if Moore is below average, he comes cheaply;

2) Atogwe was only playing at an average level with the Rams and he’s now 30 and his performance is likely in decline;

3) Atogwe’s an expensive upgrade;

4) The wins don’t mean that much to us; we aren’t close to being a championship caliber team.

No one is saying that O.J is a long term solution. At best he's a four-five year stop gap. But he instantly improves the position (making the team better in the short term), while we look for another solution via the draft or via someone already on the team, (making us better in the long term).

The Atogwe sigining is a win-now move. There’s no long term benefit.

I wasn't aware the team was in a rush to do things

You mean except to find a roster that can win now?.

Even WITH O.J Atogwe, the average age of everyone involved in our secondary is 25 years old. You make it seem as though we have some sort of decrepid, rapidly aging secondary. We have TONS of youth in the secondary right now. In fact, there's youth all over the football team if you don't operate with blinders on.

I don’t know what the average age is and don’t care. That average means nothing.

And I don't see what being "championship caliber" has to do with it. They're good prospects, worthy of being developed, but there is nothing wrong with two or three key free agent signings in areas where you don't feel you have someone on your football team that's going to come in and make you competitive.

I will be very surprised and delighted if we only make two or three FA signings.

Because the goal every offseason IS to get better. The goal of every season is to be competitive. And competitive doesn't mean that you're making playoff runs all the time, or even that you win all the time. It means that you're not a friggin' door mat for everyone, that teams aren't checking you off as an easy win.

There are lots of excuses for a win now plan. That’s one of them.

I mean...there's a followable template for success. In fact, there's several, all around the league, of teams building their foundation with solid drafts to improve their depth, while making three or four free agent signings to help improve the football team at positions of need. The "start all the young guys" plan is fundamentally flawed, especially in a truncated offseason with what will be little classroom time, and isn't the way to build a successful football franchise.

Most teams around the league are mediocre and won’t escape it, so arguments based on what “several teams” are doing don’t carry much weight with me.

...that way you fix a hole in the short-term while planning long-term.A

If you take one step to the north (long-term), the next to the west (short-term), and repeat again and again, you'll end up with a Northwest plan (mediocrity).

[AKM311]

The problem that some of you have is you think anyone "young" is automatically going to become a good or great player. The facts are quite simple, Most of those "young" players are out of the league in just 2-3 years. Why? Because they suck. The problem is figuring out WHICH "young" player is going to become a good or great player. Just because you draft young players does not mean you will automatically become a competitive team. You need to have a quality staff capable of evaluating talent, both young and older to have a playoff caliber team. The Redskins have not had quality talent evaluation over the past 10 years. Just how many of our draft picks turned out to be good to great players? I'm not making another list to prove my point. It should be obvious even to those who insist than any player over 28,29, 30 (take your pick) is over the hill. Many are proven talented players with 4-5 good years left.

If you want to load up on undrafted free agents and a few guys who have started a couple games in their career, the team will definitely be the Detroit Lions of the next decade.

Well said. Lot's are arguing a theory, but not taking a long look at what we have and where depth is needed.

If Barnes is as good as I think he will be, he will earn the start.

The only thing I agree with is do not make any contract for a 30 year old, longer than 4 years.

---------- Post added July-11th-2011 at 08:34 PM ----------

If you take one step to the north (long-term), the next to the west (short-term), and repeat again and again, you'll end up with a Northwest plan (mediocrity).

That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

How you came up with comparing going north as long term, but west is short term, baffles me.

You are suggesting building a car with cheap parts HOPING it all blends together and the parts actually work and make the car into a solid one. Sometimes that works. Sometimes it doesn't. But sometimes adding some expensive parts too.

Everything in life requires balance. Veteran leadership and youthful energy. You need both to succeed. That is my point. Don't pay too much, but don't be cheap either.

[SonnyandSam]

Well said. Lot's are arguing a theory, but not taking a long look at what we have and where depth is needed.

If Barnes is as good as I think he will be, he will earn the start.

The only thing I agree with is do not make any contract for a 30 year old, longer than 4 years.

I absolutely agree that we should develop our young players where we have players that show that kind of promise. Barnes is certainly a good example. Henson and Alexander at IL might be another where we see what we got instead of signing a free agent. But we have a huge shortage of talent on our roster. We have people who get man crushes on camp fodder every year and then those guys get cut and people scream "why?" Because they sucked. They looked good against other teams' camp fodder. The problem was Cerrato and name a coach could not competently identify talent in the draft or among the undrafted free agents.

We are now left with a roster with little young talent and yet we HAVE TO SPEND $45-60 million this year. Some can go to extending a few contracts (like Landry or Orakpo or Fred Davis...maybe) and our rookie draft choices. But this leaves LOTS of money still to be spent. So Bruce Allen needs to make wise choices signing free agents to reasonable contracts.

I believe he and Shanahan purposely allowed many Skins contracts to go to free agency because they knew this year's crop of free agents was going to be large and deep at many positions. Guys like Brown and Moss may be back; but if they come back, they will probably be signed to lesser contracts than they would have if signed last year. And the Skins will still be able to determine if there are better solutions out their for a better price. I suspect Allen will avoid the big deals and look for medium size deals for players who have performed and still have good years left in them. And a good number will be 28, 29, and 30 year olds. I doubt he goes after anyone over 32 except to fill backup holes where there are not good young options available.

Oh...and the Skins have to stop trading picks for veterans. Buy them on the free agent market; but trading picks needs to stop unless we are one guy away from a deep playoff run and we need to fill an important hole.

[AKM311]

We are now left with a roster with little young talent and yet we HAVE TO SPEND $45-60 million this year. Some can go to extending a few contracts (like Landry or Orakpo or Fred Davis...maybe) and our rookie draft choices. But this leaves LOTS of money still to be spent. So Bruce Allen needs to make wise choices signing free agents to reasonable contracts.

I believe he and Shanahan purposely allowed many Skins contracts to go to free agency because they knew this year's crop of free agents was going to be large and deep at many positions. Guys like Brown and Moss may be back; but if they come back, they will probably be signed to lesser contracts than they would have if signed last year. And the Skins will still be able to determine if there are better solutions out their for a better price. I suspect Allen will avoid the big deals and look for medium size deals for players who have performed and still have good years left in them. And a good number will be 28, 29, and 30 year olds. I doubt he goes after anyone over 32 except to fill backup holes where there are not good young options available.

Oh...and the Skins have to stop trading picks for veterans. Buy them on the free agent market; but trading picks needs to stop unless we are one guy away from a deep playoff run and we need to fill an important hole.

$45-$50M is not a lot to spend. Orakpo will probably command a $20M SB which would carve off almost half of that room itself. Cash to be spent is different than cap space.

But I agree that I believe the FA's signed will be in the middle ground. Almost identical to what we did in 2004. And I loveddddd that FA class. That and Gibbs got us to two playoff seasons in four years. Getting Washington, Griffin, Springs, Portis, and others propelled a good core for a good 4-5 years. What killed us during that time is trading for Duckett, Lloyd and others which left us thin on the backend of our roster.

[The Tris]

But you cannot rebuild ONLY with young players.

Not sure how many times you are going to intentional misrepresent my position. I have never, nor will never, said such a thing.

At 7 draft picks a year, a GM would have to draft a starter from every draft pick for 4 years. Won't and cannot happen. You know darn well that any player over the 3rd round is a crap shoot.

Bill Polian says that he tries to average 3 eventual starters every draft. Considering most teams have 8 picks, that's a 37.5% hit rate, which I think is pretty realistic.

For a rebuilding team, I would say you should be adding at least 3 eventual starters every draft, because 1) your overall talent level is naturally lower there for it is easier to upgrade, and 2) as a rebuilding team you should be doing absolutely everything in your power to add more draft picks.

I have also said that it is possible to add one (and maybe two) big name FA starter per year, based on what we have seen with other rebuilding teams, and still maintain a youth movement, as well as not interfer with the development of young players (The Falcons are a great example of this). But no more than that.

Now, no team every has to replace all 22 starters, despite your above hyperbole. For example, take the dumpster fire Cerrato level us with. We probably need to replace between 12-14 starters.

So, given the above paces of 3-4 draft picks and 1-2 FAs per year, you are looking at a max of a three year complete overhaul of the roster, with the best part being over half your starters being between the ages of 22-25.

Thats the kind of patient plan I would like to see. Not adding 5-6 FA starters.

Go ahead and show me a list of 45 young players you would start a roster with?

Well I can do the starting 22 easy. All 25 or under you say? Ok:

QB: Josh Freeman (23)

RB: Chris Johnson (25)

TE: Jermichael Finley (24)

LT: Roger Saffold (23)

LG: Mike Iupati (24)

C: Maurkice Pouncey (21)

RG: Josh Sitton (24)

RT: Brian Bulaga (22)

WR: Calvin Johnson (25)

WR: DeSean Jackson (24)

WR: Mike Williams (24)

DE: Ziggy Hood (24)

NT: BJ Raji (25)

DE: Calais Campbell (24)

OLB: Clay Matthews (25)

ILB: Lawrence Timmons (25)

ILB: Jerod Mayo (25)

OLB: Brian Orakpo (24)

CB: Darrelle Revis (25)

CB: Devin McCourty (23)

FS: Louis Delmas (23)

SS: Eric Berry (22)

As for the other 23, I have no problem with veteran depth/backups. Its the starters where I am concerned with age.

I disagree with that. The core group of guys should be younger but when we were using a 35+ year old long snapper, punter, kicker what difference did it make how old they were? Not every position on a rebuilding team is as important as another.

Sorry, I thought it was assumed we were talking about the starting 22.

The argument should be signing long big contracts of guys already 30. I think both Rex Grossman (30) for 2 and Phillip Buchanon (30) for 1 year deals respectively would be valuable to this team right now. Know the system and fill a hole cheap.

I agree completely. 30+ guys should be brought in as depth and on short term deals. This is the FA that rebuilding teams use.

---------- Post added July-11th-2011 at 04:59 PM ----------

Does your WR comment mean don't re-sign Moss or any other FA WR?

I'm indifferent towards Moss. I think there is more grey area in terms of resigning guys who have been on the team and in the system for a while.

Had Moss had the exact same career/numbers he had here with say the Jets, and we were now looking to sign him to a similar contract, I would be completely against signing him.

[Chump Bailey]

DE: Ziggy Hood (24)

NT: BJ Raji (25)

DE: Calais Campbell (24)

OLB: Clay Matthews (25)

ILB: Lawrence Timmons (25)

ILB: Jerod Mayo (25)

OLB: Brian Orakpo (24)

CB: Darrelle Revis (25)

CB: Devin McCourty (23)

FS: Louis Delmas (23)

SS: Eric Berry (22)

Now that would make for one helluva 34 defense!

[The Tris]

Almost identical to what we did in 2004. And I loveddddd that FA class. That and Gibbs got us to two playoff seasons in four years. Getting Washington, Griffin, Springs, Portis, and others propelled a good core for a good 4-5 years. What killed us during that time is trading for Duckett, Lloyd and others which left us thin on the backend of our roster.

That was the class that ensured we were in complete win now mode.

I would counter your excitement about the results with that class with "that group of players bought us one playoff win and a 31-34 record in four years."

I would call that a failure of a win now plan.

If thats the plan for the next four years, I couldn't be more disappointed.

[KCClybun]

I misunderstood your orginial statement. Now that I understand your requirement of being a starting caliber FS (I presume that means an average NFL free safety) I understand your comment. Here are my counterpoints on that:

1) Even if Moore is below average, he comes cheaply;

2) Atogwe was only playing at an average level with the Rams and he’s now 30 and his performance is likely in decline;

3) Atogwe’s an expensive upgrade;

4) The wins don’t mean that much to us; we aren’t close to being a championship caliber team.

Well how do we become a championship caliber team then? By sitting around, compiling top 10 draft picks year after year and kinda sort of hoping for the best?

I mean, hasn't that been what we've been doing?

The thought process here just boggles the mind. You're essentially saying even if Kareem Moore isn't very good, it's still better to keep playing Kareem Moore, hoping that eventually, one day, we either luck into the next Sean Taylor or something, allowing their to be a gaping hole in our defense for the sake of getting young, or hope that somehow, Kareem Moore turns into a starting safety, despite all evidence to the contrary that he's every bit the sixth round draft pick we spent on him, not some sort of hidden gem.

The Atogwe sigining is a win-now move. There’s no long term benefit.

This is not fact, sir. This is opinion. You should not state it as such.

You mean except to find a roster that can win now?

And now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about winning now.

I don’t know what the average age is and don’t care. That average means nothing.

Okay, you don't care about averages. Fine. Here's a hard number for you, sir.

Right now, there are currently 12 defensive backs signed to the roster.

11 are under thirty years old.

My point stands; we're sitting here talking about how old the team is and how we need a major youth movement, when we have a lot of young talent currently on the football team.

I will be very surprised and delighted if we only make two or three FA signings.

There ya go with that nasty habit of putting words in my mouth again. Or maybe in this case, removing a word. Notice how I say "key free agents"? Oh, of course not, because that would hurt your argument. Let me clarify again. When I say "key" free agent signings, I mean signing a few free agents to holes that are glaring positions of need. It doesn't mean not signing any other free agents at all, but at that point I wouldn't be looking for any big name guys any way. There's more to free agency than just the big name guys.

There are lots of excuses for a win now plan. That’s one of them.

So wanting my team to be competitive instead of wanting them to, say, get massacred on a Monday Night Football game, is excuse for me wanting to win now. I gotcha sir.

Most teams around the league are mediocre and won’t escape it, so arguments based on what “several teams” are doing don’t carry much weight with me.

Patriots, Green Bay, Steelers, Colts, Baltimore, New Orleans, Atlanta...all pretty good football teams that have lots of success, and up and coming teams like the Bucs, the Rams, the Chiefs and the Lions are all following that lead. If they don't carry weight with you, it's because you've put the blinders on and want the Redskins to do things you way or no way.

If you take one step to the north (long-term), the next to the west (short-term), and repeat again and again, you'll end up with a Northwest plan (mediocrity).

And if you keep losing continuously with no improvement, you end up with numerous coaching staffs, no continuity, an organization where the inmates run the asylum (because the chairman of the place keeps getting fired), and a bunch of good players from the top of the draft who are great and a bunch of average-to-sucky players from the middle and bottom of the draft.

Which is exactly what the Redskins have had for a very, very long time.

[Oldfan]

The Tris ~ I have also said that it is possible to add one (and maybe two) big name FA starter per year, based on what we have seen with other rebuilding teams, and still maintain a youth movement, as well as not interfer with the development of young players (The Falcons are a great example of this). But no more than that.

I doubt that you could add one or two starters per year through FA. Your best players will come from the draft. If you draft well, keeping your best players is a tough task within the salary cap even without major free agent signings. And you aren't going to find one of two starting quality FAs per year willing to do short-term contracts.

I don't think it's manageable.

The best salary cap strategy is to try to make every transaction a bargain. You can do that in the draft; you can do it with UDFA, but the odds against doing it as the high bidder with free agents are huge.

[SonnyandSam]

Bill Polian says that he tries to average 3 eventual starters every draft. Considering most teams have 8 picks, that's a 37.5% hit rate, which I think is pretty realistic.

But that is a team that has Bill Polian picking the talent. He's done a pretty fair job. The Redskins have never picked with that kind of success rate over the past decade.

For a rebuilding team, I would say you should be adding at least 3 eventual starters every draft, because 1) your overall talent level is naturally lower there for it is easier to upgrade, and 2) as a rebuilding team you should be doing absolutely everything in your power to add more draft picks.

I have also said that it is possible to add one (and maybe two) big name FA starter per year, based on what we have seen with other rebuilding teams, and still maintain a youth movement, as well as not interfer with the development of young players (The Falcons are a great example of this). But no more than that..

I agree, except that works for teams that have average or better talent on their roster. We have a lot more holes as starters and depth than those types of teams.

Now, no team every has to replace all 22 starters, despite your above hyperbole. For example, take the dumpster fire Cerrato level us with. We probably need to replace between 12-14 starters.

So, given the above paces of 3-4 draft picks and 1-2 FAs per year, you are looking at a max of a three year complete overhaul of the roster, with the best part being over half your starters being between the ages of 22-25.

Thats the kind of patient plan I would like to see. Not adding 5-6 FA starters.

True....I was exagerating simply to make the point about how long it takes to get a starting group out of the draft. But you need another 23 to fill out the roster. The process you describe is not going to turn over the roster in three years. nor should it. We have some talent.

All I am saying is that the knee jerk reaction to ignoring anyone "old", whatevert that means is a simplistic solution that is not going to work. What you have described is not what others who subscribe to the "youth" movement have been writing. I think you and I are much closer in our thinking than we think....if that made any sense....

Well I can do the starting 22 easy. All 25 or under you say? Ok:

QB: Josh Freeman (23)

RB: Chris Johnson (25)

TE: Jermichael Finley (24)

LT: Roger Saffold (23)

LG: Mike Iupati (24)

C: Maurkice Pouncey (21)

RG: Josh Sitton (24)

RT: Brian Bulaga (22)

WR: Calvin Johnson (25)

WR: DeSean Jackson (24)

WR: Mike Williams (24)

DE: Ziggy Hood (24)

NT: BJ Raji (25)

DE: Calais Campbell (24)

OLB: Clay Matthews (25)

ILB: Lawrence Timmons (25)

ILB: Jerod Mayo (25)

OLB: Brian Orakpo (24)

CB: Darrelle Revis (25)

CB: Devin McCourty (23)

FS: Louis Delmas (23)

SS: Eric Berry (22)

As for the other 23, I have no problem with veteran depth/backups. Its the starters where I am concerned with age..

No No No.....I meant the Redskins starting 22. I will certainly conced that we could find 22 young starting caliber players in the entire NFL. I will also point out, however, that none of them are available in free agency, are they?

I agree completely. 30+ guys should be brought in as depth and on short term deals. This is the FA that rebuilding teams use.

.

Like I said....I think we agree on more than we realize. I just think we will end up with signing 4-6 solid 26-30 year old free agents plus lower tier free agents. That cash money that must be spent this year is just going to be spread out over 3-4 years on the cap....so we really do have a lot of money to spend, like it or not. (especially if we cut/trade McNabb and Haynesworth)

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Completely agree with you. Trading draft picks for veteran players served as the greatest detriment to the team's inability to build a solid foundation and have any semblance of depth. Joe Gibbs, VC, and Snyder giving away draft picks like they were expired car wash coupons or something was the problem. FA is not.

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :applause: Good one lol....

[SonnyandSam]

I doubt that you could add one or two starters per year through FA. Your best players will come from the draft. If you draft well, keeping your best players is a tough task within the salary cap even without major free agent signings. And you aren't going to find one of two starting quality FAs per year willing to do short-term contracts.

I don't think it's manageable.

The best salary cap strategy is to try to make every transaction a bargain. You can do that in the draft; you can do it with UDFA, but the odds against doing it as the high bidder with free agents are huge.

What a crock. GOOD teams bring in one to two starting free agents on a regular basis. A team as bad as the Skins brings in a lot more because they do not have young talent good enough to start AND be good.

You make it sound like signing a successful free agent is harder than signing a successful draft pick and UDFA. Which is totally wrong. Teams fail on half the first round picks alone every year. It only gets worse each round forward. Signing a top tier free agent has a much higher chance of success because the player already has a track record in the NFL. You know he can play. Some are flops. But a lot more FA are successful than any draft pick or UDFA. VERY FEW UDFAs ever become a good or great player. They are the true exception.

Draft bargains? Demarcus Russel? Ryan Leaf? Heath Shuler? Ever seen the list of the biggest draft busts. Those guys got more money than the FAs and had absolutely no track record of success in the NFL. It became a total waste of money for those teams. That is why the NFL is insisting on a rookie wage scale to reduce their losses.

The key to free agency is not get caught up with the best players out their. Belicheck gets it. He signs multiple free agents every year; starting free agents. But he fills holes that cannot be filled in the draft and he goes with quality steady dependable players. Not the hottest player from the year before. Sometimes he takes a risk on a player like Moss who has talent but seems to have a bad attitude; but even then he gets those players for a bargain because everyone else sees them as damaged goods.

As I've said before....it is not about age....it is about identifying talent whether in the draft, in free agency or UDFAs. Teams that do that well are the teams that win.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I agree with both of you. Trading draft picks for old players is a doomed move unless you are a Superbowl contender. Targeting 30 year old Free Agents isn't the same thing and won't set the club back like we did when we had a draft of 4 players one year. Adding old guys to the team doesn't hurt if there is no one younger to step up

17 more draft picks...the Pats had 17 more draft picks in that 5 year span than we did...can you imagine the Redskins adding FOUR MORE ROOKIES EVERY YEAR to the team since 2006? If even half of them worked out and remained on the team, that's 8-9 starters and quality back-ups added to our roster right now--all of them 28 or younger :doh:...

Signing Atogwe and Jenkins won't keep the Redskins from drafting players...and that's what the Skins need to do for 2-3 years straight: draft as many players as possible. They don't need to lose for 2-3 years straight...they need to draft for 2-3 years straight.

[addicted]

That was the class that ensured we were in complete win now mode.

I would counter your excitement about the results with that class with "that group of players bought us one playoff win and a 31-34 record in four years."

I would call that a failure of a win now plan.

If thats the plan for the next four years, I couldn't be more disappointed.

I hope you end up being disappointed.

The point was never to win just 50% of the games played.

The point was poorly executed for several reasons to include - Missing on our Franchise QB and trading away too many draft picks for players. If we had hit on Campbell and honestly we would have had we decided to draft Aaron Rogers instead of Jason Campbell, that was a championship team imo. Campbell sucked so bad it held the team back. Because we threw away draft picks like we did we never were able to replace Campbell. Those teams weren't failures because of the Free Agents we signed. Those Free Agents won us those games.

It was win now. And thinking that with our owner that we will ever see ourselves in anything other then win now mode forever is about the dumbest thing you can say imo. You really think Snyder is ever going to get out of "win now" mode? And do you ever think an owner would want his franchise to lose?

And your ignoring things like we HAVE TO SPEND money. With your attitude of

"I have also said that it is possible to add one (and maybe two) big name FA starter per year, based on what we have seen with other rebuilding teams, and still maintain a youth movement, as well as not interfer with the development of young players (The Falcons are a great example of this). But no more than that"

I guess the reality just hasn't sunk in yet. What do you suppose we do with that money we have to spend? No more then 2 starters and lets give a ton of money to people we won't keep around and will be worthless? Seriously your position just doesn't jive with what needs to be done, like it or not.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Outside of Brady, Brees and Manning by virtue of them being who they are, I wouldn't want anyone off of those rosters.

We're rebuilding for the long term. Not the here and now.

Hail.

When did you become such a goddamn fanatic?

Do you realize that your dream roster of under 25 year olds would not meet the salary floor that the league is proposing. And then once everyone reached FA at the exact same time, you would lose 2/3 of your roster.

[addicted]

17 more draft picks...the Pats had 17 more draft picks in that 5 year span than we did...can you imagine the Redskins adding FOUR MORE ROOKIES EVERY YEAR to the team since 2006? If even half of them worked out and remained on the team, that's 8-9 starters and quality back-ups added to our roster right now--all of them 28 or younger :doh:...

Two points:

1. What did the Pats win in that time? Nothing. In addition they screwed up so piss poorly that it was an epic failure for that franchise and the history of the league. 18-1 remember? Who was the player who cost them that 19th win? A free agent.

2. 2008 draft. How many picks did we have? 10 players selected. How many still remain on the team years later? I think 2, Kelly and Davis, with Kelly only being here by the skin of his teeth. My point is that who woulda thought 3 years after taking 10 players in a draft we would find ourselves without a single starter from that draft? It's not a matter of picks or some silly averages game that Tris made it sound like. You can have 15 picks and miss on every one of them if you draft as poorly as we have in the past.

Signing Atogwe and Jenkins won't keep the Redskins from drafting players...and that's what the Skins need to do for 2-3 years straight: draft as many players as possible. They don't need to lose for 2-3 years straight...they need to draft for 2-3 years straight.

Damn straight, I completely agree. They need to try and win, What teams ever win anything without tasting defeat first? We need to win, and we need to bring in guys that will help us accomplish that goal like OJ in free agency and draft like we did this past draft with lots of players at needed positions so that we can rebuild this thing.

[KCClybun]

The key to free agency is not get caught up with the best players out their. Belicheck gets it. He signs multiple free agents every year; starting free agents. But he fills holes that cannot be filled in the draft and he goes with quality steady dependable players. Not the hottest player from the year before. Sometimes he takes a risk on a player like Moss who has talent but seems to have a bad attitude; but even then he gets those players for a bargain because everyone else sees them as damaged goods.

As I've said before....it is not about age....it is about identifying talent whether in the draft, in free agency or UDFAs. Teams that do that well are the teams that win.

Apparently, since we're not contenders, we can't do something that worked for a team that is a contender and has been a contender and became a contender doing things the same way. Apparently we just need to suck balls for two or three years and draft as many players as possible and pray it works out.

[addicted]

When did you become such a goddamn fanatic?

Do you realize that your dream roster of under 25 year olds would not meet the salary floor that the league is proposing. And then once everyone reached FA at the exact same time' date=' you would lose 2/3 of your roster.[/quote']

That made me laugh. Could you imagine having that awesome of a roster and only have two tags to use and know there was no damn way in hell we would be able to sign half of them? That would be the worst thing ever.

[The Tris]

What do you suppose we do with that money we have to spend?

Could we not just pay the cap floor penalty?

It's not like they'll cancel our games if we don't pay.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Here is something to consider.

No matter if you are a young team or an old team, more than half your team is going to be gone in four years either by age, injury, free agency or lack of talent.

The Steelers offensive roster in Super Bowl XLIII

QB - Roethlisberger

RB - Parker

FB - Davis

WR - Ward

WR - Holmes

TE - Miller

LT - Starks

LG - Keomatu

C - Hartwig

RG - Stapleton

RT - Colon

The Steelers' offensive roster in Super Bowl XLV

QB - Roethlisberger

RB - Mendenhall

FB - Johnson

WR - Ward

WR - Wallace

TE - Miller

LT - Scott

LG - Keomatu

C - Legursky (replacing rookie Pouncey)

RG - Foster

RT - Adams

That's 7 of 11 new guys on offense in two years for a Super Bowl caliber team.

Granted, the Steelers' forte is their Defense. And they only turned over 2 starters in two years on that side of the ball.

So, add three more years.

Super Bowl XL

Smith - DE

Hampton - NT

Von Oelhoffen - DE

LOLB - Haggans

ILB - Farrior

ILB - Foote

ROLB - Porter

CB - Talyor

CB - Townsend

SS - Polamalu

FS - Hope

Super Bowl XLV

DE - Hood

NT - Hampton

DE - Keisel

LOLB - Woodley

ILB - Farrior

ILB - Timmons

ROLB - Harrison

CB - Taylor

CB - McFadden

SS - Polamalu

FS - Clark

That's seven new defenders in five years.