When will we EVER learn? Redskins fans, some of the biggest hypocrites around .....

[SkinsHokieFan]

You aren't advocating being prudent. You are advocating creating a weird age limit because you are weird.

At the right price' date=' Jenkins would likely be a prudent pick-up. You have said, no, because you are like a character in one of those weird movies from the late 60s where 40-year-olds are sent to work camps or something.[/quote']

I got the age limit because well I do.

No to a 30 year old coming off a Superbowl win thats missed so much time of late. By the time we are competitive he is going to be heading to an old folks home.

[jflow78]

If you want to see how they deal with it, read up on our teams from 2000-2009. People believe we "avoided cap hell" by not having to cut a bunch of players. What really happened is that we were stuck with a group of players and were paying them way more than they were worth when they continued to get older. Also, because of that, we had virtually no depth so whenever an injury hit us (in FOOTBALL), we were crushed. Believe me, I love that this is happening to them and not us, I just don't think many Redskin fans actually realized that we lived through cap hell...it just wasn't some monumental event as much as a slow degradation of our roster and depth.

I agree, which is precisely why it makes me giddy to hear that they are screwed.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I got the age limit because well I do.

No to a 30 year old coming off a Superbowl win thats missed so much time of late. By the time we are competitive he is going to be heading to an old folks home.

Why is this necessarily a fact?

The Steelers started a 33-year-old nose tackle and a 32-year-old DE in the Super Bowl last year. They wanted to have a 35 year old DE with them but his arm blew up.

Obviously, the Steelers old guys have an advantage of time together and talent, but this idea that NFL players stop being good at 30 is ridiculous. Maybe Jenkins is not the hill to die on, but why wouldn't you sing Ashmomonghaolajusla? So you overpay him. It lets you cheat on defense now and maybe he's just pretty good by the time the team is good enough to compete in two years.

Seriously, you guys who are on this bizarre three or four year plan are insane. Kyle Shanahan could be dead by then, let alone his dad.

By the way, I feel like Trotsky.

I ****ed for years that the Skins did not put enough resources into the draft. Now, my ideas are widely accepted except everyone has corrupted my original thoughts.

I don't want the Skins to draft 11 guys a year and have them all make the roster. Down that path madness lies. I want the Skins to have 9 to 10 picks a year and get four to five good players out of that.

If you draft four or five quality guys a year and add two to three solid Free Agents, you will compete for a division within two years and a Super Bowl within four.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

And this was a Free Agency thread and I couldn't resist mentioning how a free agent sunk them

...No, I hear you there lol :yes:...Still, I think the Pats are held up as the Gold standard because not only were they winning multiple SBs, they were staying consistently good for a decade. Compared to the Rams, who went to two SBs, then dropped off a cliff for like 5 years...had one more really good year, then fell down again.

Ok so out of the 10 plauyer draft we have how many starters?

My point was that it's not just adding players, its adding the "right" players something we failed to do.

I know..but still, having a completely new regime come into town tends to throw things off-course for a bit as well. Put another way, if Vinny and Zorn were still here, Devin Thomas might actually be starting, Tryon might actually be penciled in as starter this year...Colt Brennan might still be on the team...Rinehart and Horton might be starting (both had starts during Zorn's tenure, afterall). Doesn't mean they're automatically any better because of it lol...but different coaches/GMs make different decisions.

You said it. I'm happy we drafted that many guys this year. My fingers are crossed that they were the "right" players. Only time will tell.

The most significant thing about it is we should (SHOULD) be staying on a consistent track as long as Allen remains GM...even if Shanahan hangs it up after 5 years, Allen should (SHOULD) have a purposeful direction for the team and hire a new coach who will help move the team further in that direction. In the past our "GM" (Snyder) had no long range plan and switched gears with his head coaching hires wayyyyyyyyy too often. From Stephen Davis to Trung Candidate to Clinton Portis? Wtf? lol...From "Martyball" to "Fun N' Gun" to "1980's Gibbs" to "700 Page Playbook Al" to "East-Western Coast Zorn"...having an actual GM minimizes all that fluctuation, and helps guarantee that the guys we're drafting and saigning now, will still fit the scheme 4 years down the road. Hate on Haynesworth all you want (and he deserves it), but he did not come here to play in a 3-4, and we did not bring him here to play in a 3-4.

[Oldfan]

SonnyandSam ~ What a crock. GOOD teams bring in one to two starting free agents on a regular basis.

Is “a regular basis” the same as one or two a year. If so, I think you’re wrong.

A team as bad as the Skins brings in a lot more because they do not have young talent good enough to start AND be good.

In the Snyder era, the Redskins have the most consistently mediocre record among the 32 NFL teams. That’s the result of our over-dependency on free agents. With that approach we can never be really bad or really good.

You make it sound like signing a successful free agent is harder than signing a successful draft pick and UDFA.

Signing a FA worth his contract is far more difficult. If the draft pick or the UDFA becomes a starter, he’s a huge performance bargain.

Draft bargains? Demarcus Russel? Ryan Leaf? Heath Shuler? Ever seen the list of the biggest draft busts.

Sure, the teams lose money when a high pick busts, but the draft is a “closed market” which mean that they cannot get “market value” for their services. Overall, the rookies sign bargain basement contracts.

The key to free agency is not get caught up with the best players out their. Belicheck gets it. He signs multiple free agents every year; starting free agents.

Belichik does not add one or two starters a year from free agency. He picks up cheap FAs as gap fillers. A few weeks ago, I counted five #1 picks and eight #2 picks who had started games for his 2010 team. I didn’t count the lower round picks who started.

The Skins had six drafted players start in 2010. We will probably lose one in Carlos and another in Rocky. So, we need Kerrigan and one more to get back to six.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

You wouldn't sign Ashomaongauglaugguaogogooa?

Gesundheit...

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Seriously' date=' you guys who are on this bizarre three or four year plan are insane. Kyle Shanahan could be dead by then, let alone his dad.

[/quote']

I wouldn't go that far, but I'd be very happy if he was nowhere near this team. But that's another story. Hopefully he'll be better in year two.

Hail.

*Edit* And I reject 'insane.' I'm sticking with "GHH. He's Weird" Weird works. Insane scares folk.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Belichik does not add one or two starters a year from free agency. A few weeks ago, I counted five #1 picks and eight #2 picks who had started games for his 2010 team. I didn’t count the lower round picks.

Bill had good drafts the last two years. Which made up for the horrible drafts he had in the three or four years prior to that.

I think this year's Pats' draft was a disaster though. It seemed like BB's draft theories turned into the snake that swallowed its tail this year.

[SkinsTillIDie]

A 30 year old that's missed 17 games the last three years and would want a big chunk of money is not my idea of a prudent pick-up for a re-building team a good ways away from challenging in the position we are in.

Hail.

With our salary cap situation, money is almost a non-factor.

By my count, the only defensive ends we have on the roster are Adam Carriker, Jarvis Jenkins, Kendric Golston, Jeremy Jarmon, Philip Daniels, Vonnie Holliday. Golston I believe is a free agent, but I hope/expect for us to bring him back as a decent depth role-player. Jarmon is more or less unproven as an effective end, and this is his make-or-break year for his future as a Redskin. Daniels (38) and Holliday (35) are far from long-term pieces.

By adding Callum Jenkins, we get younger at the position, with the assumption that Daneils would be the one replaced. He comes from a winning organization, has a Super Bowl ring, which I think no one on our team but Fletcher has (in his rookie year, like four decades ago). That experience in and of itself will be extremely valuable. He provides greater competition and is the type of premier interior pass-rushing specimen that can show Jarmon and younger Jenkins a few elite moves.

And most importantly, he immediately becomes our most impactful defensive end. Using that ol Haynesworth logic, he'll make Orakpo or Kerrigan better by being on the field. And if he gets injured? Then our young prospect Jarmon steps on the field and tries to hold down the fort, with help from Golston/Carriker/other Jenkins/etc.

If Daniels can be effective into his late 30s, and Holliday into his mid-30s, then it's certainly not unreasonable to suggest that Jenkins -- a better player than either -- can continue to excel for a number of years. Obviously, there's no guarantee with him (that he'll stay healthy, whathaveyou), but there never is with any free agent signing. Or draft pick. There's a risk involved with any player acquisition. But adding Jenkins seems to be a win-win move for everyone involved. We get better on the defensive line with a true 3-4 end, we get younger at the position (with decent balance along with Jarvis Jenkins (23), Jeremy Jarmon (23) and Adam Carriker (27).)

And if we don't sign Callum Jenkins, who DO we sign? Because we can't go into the season with Jarvis Jenkins, Jeremy Jarmon, Adam Carriker, Kendric Golston, Philip Daniels, Vonnie Holliday. We have to add a free agent in there somewhere. How is signing a meddling 27-year old mediocre DE any better than adding Callum Jenkins? (and spare me the financial reasons -- not only do we have to spend a ton to get under the salary cap floor, but Jenkins' signing will have no baring on any other future move we wish to make). I like the Adam Carrikers and Kendric Golstons, but these are the type of players that should be filling out the bottom of rotations instead of being the featured, predominant players.

And frankly, absolutely worst case scenario -- Callum Jenkins is a major free agent bust who wishes nothing more than to move back to Green Bay. Then we cut him a year from now. No harm, no foul, right?

Best case scenario? He continues his stellar play, misses little time, and has the type of impact that Cornelius Griffin had for 4 or 5 years as a Redskin.

---------- Post added July-11th-2011 at 04:03 PM ----------

I should also add that I think adding OJ Atogwe and Callum Jenkins are good moves, but if we were to add 5 such players, that would obviously be overkill. But if we can go through every offseason adding 2 or 3 players that have similar credentials as OJ Atogwe and Callum Jenkins -- 28-30 years old, high character, highly proven players with strong work ethics, who can be lockerroom leaders, who fit the system -- then I'm all for it.

And NOT the sexy Albert Hanesworth/Nmandi Asomugah free agents, the type of players that would command $50 million or more (let alone $100 million... jeez)

[KCClybun]

...Skins, it's "Cullen".

[SonnyandSam]

That's what I've been saying

Take every position and throw out the top 3 paid players or guys who we think will be the most paid

All of those got to go. They aren't what we need

Then pick for value and fill out the teams roster with the best of the rest

This is where people get in trouble when they start using absolutes to make decisions. You do not throw out absolutes like "throw out the top 3 paid players" and you don't take yourself out of considerations because of "who we think will be the most paid".

If Nnamdi's price was a $7 million signing bonus and $4 million a year, would you sign him? Of course. I realize he will go for much more than this but if you follow your logic, we miss out on great bargains. The right way is to identify the players in rank order who fit your scheme and team the best; you consider things like health and age also. Then you make offers. You start low and work your way up but avoid getting into a bidding war. A good GM knows when the value is not worth it and then you move on to your second choice. But you do not ignore the top three players at a position or refuse to speak with a guy because you "think" he may be too expensive.

Our problem in the past has been a lack of a patience to determine real value in a player and going after players that had issues either physical or mental (e.g. AH).

[jflow78]

Outside of Brady, Brees and Manning by virtue of them being who they are, I wouldn't want anyone off of those rosters.

We're rebuilding for the long term. Not the here and now.

Hail.

Now, you've got me completely confused with what your argument is. You would take Brady (34 when the season begins), Manning (35), and Brees (32), but you don't want a "short term" FA answer, or to sign anyone over 27 or 28, or was it 26 (I honestly can't remember)?

So signing a 35 year old Manning ISN'T a short term "win now" quick fix?

---------- Post added July-11th-2011 at 06:29 PM ----------

You aren't advocating being prudent. You are advocating creating a weird age limit because you are weird.

At the right price' date=' Jenkins would likely be a prudent pick-up. You have said, no, because you are like a character in one of those weird movies from the late 60s where 40-year-olds are sent to work camps or something.[/quote']

Was that "The Postman"? Tom Petty's film career was far too short.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

In answer to your "who else" question Skins man, I'd rather go after 34 ends like the all round solid Ray Edwards (26) from the Vikes, or Charles Johnson (24) from the Panthers who had a pretty darn good year last season than Jenkins.

Throw them into a rotation of Jarmon, Carriker and the rook Jarvis Jenkins if we don't move him to NT and I'd be pretty happy to see how that played out.

---------- Post added July-11th-2011 at 06:32 PM ----------

I was just being flippant on the list jflow man.

Idealy, I wouldn't take anyone of those pro-bowl rosters, but if pushed, the QB's mentioned would be the only ones I'd consider. But idealy I'd prefer us drafting our own and letting him develop and play out his career in DC.

Hail.

[jflow78]

I was just being flippant on the list jflow man.

Idealy, I wouldn't take anyone of those pro-bowl rosters, but if pushed, the QB's mentioned would be the only ones I'd consider. But idealy I'd prefer us drafting our own and letting him develop and play out his career in DC.

Hail.

I understand. I'm right there with you then.

EDIT:

Also, I must add this video:

I will never understand how he didn't get Best Supporting Actor that year.

[SkinsTillIDie]

...Skins, it's "Cullen".

Hmmm... then I don't want him!

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Taking this from ProFootballReference.com, so might have some errors.

Anyway, here are all the Skins players that were 29 years old or older on last year's team:

John Beck

Roydell Williams

Darrion Scott

Carlos Rogers

Clinton Portis

Albert Haynesworth

Anthony Bryant

Jammal Brown

Rex Grossman

Derrick Dockery

Phillip Buchanon

Santana Moss

Ma'ake Kemoeatu

Larry Johnson

Andre Carter

Artis Hicks

Hunter Smith

Casey Rabach

Donovan McNabb

Josh Bidwell

Mike Sellers

Vonnie Holliday

London Fletcher

Phillip Daniels

Joey Galloway

Eight of those players have been let go. That leaves:

John Beck

Darrion Scott

Carlos Rogers

Albert Haynesworth

Anthony Bryant

Jammal Brown

Rex Grossman

Phillip Buchanon

Santana Moss

Ma'ake Kemoeatu

Artis Hicks

Casey Rabach

Donovan McNabb

Mike Sellers

Vonnie Holliday

London Fletcher

Phillip Daniels

Two of these guys may be released for age or injury concerns. That leaves:

John Beck

Darrion Scott

Carlos Rogers

Albert Haynesworth

Anthony Bryant

Jammal Brown

Rex Grossman

Phillip Buchanon

Santana Moss

Artis Hicks

Casey Rabach

Donovan McNabb

Mike Sellers

Vonnie Holliday

London Fletcher

Five of these guys are free agents and may sign elsewhere. That leaves:

John Beck

Darrion Scott

Albert Haynesworth

Anthony Bryant

Artis Hicks

Casey Rabach

Donovan McNabb

Mike Sellers

Vonnie Holliday

London Fletcher

Two of these guys may realistically be traded away. That leaves:

John Beck

Darrion Scott

Anthony Bryant

Artis Hicks

Casey Rabach

Mike Sellers

Vonnie Holliday

London Fletcher

That makes 8 players who will be 30 or older at some time during the season. How many 30+ year olds should the Skins carry on the team right now? (if you had to pick a number)..

[SkinsTillIDie]

In answer to your "who else" question Skins man, I'd rather go after 34 ends like the all round solid Ray Edwards (26) from the Vikes, or Charles Johnson (24) from the Panthers who had a pretty darn good year last season than Jenkins.

Throw them into a rotation of Jarmon, Carriker and the rook Jarvis Jenkins if we don't move him to NT and I'd be pretty happy to see how that played out.

Aren't Edwards and Johnson 4-3 ends though? Not that they can't make the transition, but I do like that we're looking for players that appear to fit our 3-4 system.

I wouldn't mind either of those players if Shanahan chose to sign them. But I do like Cullen Jenkins filling the Daniels + Holliday role -- I wouldn't be opposed to signing a Jenkins and Edwards/Johnson, to fill out a rotation of Jarvis Jenkins, Jarmon, Carriker, Golston. And then we look to replace the weak links (Golston; Jarmon) in the next few offseasons. That seems like a rotation that has a good balance of age, potential, experience, character and salary cap expense.

---------- Post added July-11th-2011 at 04:48 PM ----------

Taking this from ProFootballReference.com, so might have some errors.

Anyway, here are all the Skins players that were 29 years old or older on last year's team:

Great post. I'd say London Fletcher, Mike Sellers (possibly -- though the camp battle with Darrel Young will be one to watch), Casey Rabach (as the team's 8th offensive lineman), Anthony Bryant (stop-gap back-up). Vonnie Holliday only if we don't add 2 defensive ends, as the 6th defensive end.

This is why I'm not opposed to signing the Atogwes and Jenkins'. We really have a sparse collection of veterans, particularly veterans that stand a chance to be here three years from now.

Though I do expect Santana Moss and Rex Grossman to be back, and possibly Jamaal Brown.

Can't pick an arbitrary number of 30 year olds because I don't think there's necessarily a 'right' answer

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Sorry man. The Vikings of course run a 43 with the Williams at tackle. My careless bad. It's been a long day.

I'll rephrase on Edwards and say with his skill set and size he looks like he'd have no problem transitioning to a 34 end. As for Johnson, I've read that with the changes at the Panthers and them switching to a 34, they also think he'd have no problem transitioning.

Along similar lines it's only the last few years that the Packers switched to 34. Although that transition has gone real well, most of Jenkins career has been spent in a 43. Obviously different skill sets suit different schemes, but I think often when it comes to linemen, too much is put onto that. If your good and smart enough, you can generally switch without too many hiccups.

Hail.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Great post. I'd say London Fletcher, Mike Sellers (possibly -- though the camp battle with Darrel Young will be one to watch), Casey Rabach (as the team's 8th offensive lineman), Anthony Bryant (stop-gap back-up). Vonnie Holliday only if we don't add 2 defensive ends, as the 6th defensive end.

This is why I'm not opposed to signing the Atogwes and Jenkins'. We really have a sparse collection of veterans, particularly veterans that stand a chance to be here three years from now.

Though I do expect Santana Moss and Rex Grossman to be back, and possibly Jamaal Brown.

Can't pick an arbitrary number of 30 year olds because I don't think there's necessarily a 'right' answer

If the Skins followed your advice, they'd have 10 players that were 30+ years old, and that includes Atogwe and Cullen Jenkins.

I forgot to add in Beck, so I guess that would move the total up to 11 lol...(insert Spinal Tap joke here).

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I don't know if I could call an ideal number Cali man, but in an ideal World given what we currently have over 30, I'd only want Beck and Grossman (QB's a redundant issue next year. We aren't improving on what we have, so we may as well stick with what's there and cheap); Brown (serviceable unless we pick up anyone else), Fletch and Daniels. (Like Fletcher, a unique one off locker room influence.). Maybe Moss if he doesn't get picked up.

On veteran leadership, let's not forget we've players along the lines of Alexander (28- 6yrs); Cooley (28- 7 yrs); Doughtey (28- 5yrs); Hall (27- 8 yrs) and even Landry at 26 with 4 yrs who should be stepping up within the locker room.

Hail.

[SkinsTillIDie]

Sorry man. The Vikings of course run a 43 with the Williams at tackle. My careless bad. It's been a long day.

I'll rephrase on Edwards and say with his skill set and size he looks like he'd have no problem transitioning to a 34 end. As for Johnson, I've read that with the changes at the Panthers and them switching to a 34, they also think he'd have no problem transitioning.

Along similar lines it's only the last few years that the Packers switched to 34. Although that transition has gone real well, most of Jenkins career has been spent in a 43. Obviously different skill sets suit different schemes, but I think often when it comes to linemen, too much is put onto that. If your good and smart enough, you can generally switch without too many hiccups.

Hail.

I like Edwards, but frankly I really haven't seen enough of either Edwards or Johnson to give an adequate reading of whether or not they'd fit in into our scheme. But I do know this -- if we're looking for size on the line, Jenkins gives us far more than either Edwards or Johnson.

Jenkins -- 6'2 305

Edwards -- 6'5 268

Johnson -- 6'2 275

From ESPN... so you can't be sure how accurate that is.

Just from those numbers though, Jenkins seems like he's the prototypical 3-4 end, from a size standpoint. Edwards seems too tall and lean, more like an ideal 4-3 end. And it's always easy to say "if Johnson can put on some weight," but I feel like it's always harder to gauge a player's aptitude in one system at one playing weight and accurately predict how he'll play in a different system at a completely different weight. Certainly not saying that Johnson can't do it, but I feel like -- in terms of trying to ensure a free agent 'success' -- Jenkins is more likely to continue to thrive than Johnson would.

But if we signed either one, I'd be more than pleased, and of course hopeful that they'll pan out. Naturally, with the presumption that Shanahan/Haslett/our scouts believe that they'll fit into our defensive scheme.

And I'll add -- if we're looking to add an end for the next 5 years (presumably, that's how long the contract would be for any of the aforementioned free agents) -- would Charles Johnson be a better player than Jenkins 4 years from now? 5 years? If so, how much better? And is it worth to take the risk on a more unproven talent? Assuming, of course, that the finances are roughly equal

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I don't know if I could call an ideal number Cali man, but in an ideal World given what we currently have over 30, I'd only want Beck and Grossman (QB's a redundant issue next year. We aren't improving on what we have, so we may as well stick with what's there and cheap); Brown (serviceable unless we pick up anyone else), Fletch and Daniels. (Like Fletcher, a unique one off locker room influence.). Maybe Moss if he doesn't get picked up.

On veteran leadership, let's not forget we've players along the lines of Alexander (28- 6yrs); Cooley (28- 7 yrs); Doughtey (28- 5yrs); Hall (27- 8 yrs) and even Landry at 26 with 4 yrs who should be stepping up within the locker room.

Hail.

So the Redskins have six players 30 and above if they followed your advice...

Out of curiosity, why Daniels?

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Out of curiosity, why Daniels?

By all accounts, from every coach and player I hear on him, like London he's a unique locker room influence loved by all that leads by example. I wouldn't want him to see much of the field if at all next year, but I could maybe find a roster spot for all he brings off the field.

Hail.

[SkinsTillIDie]

If the Skins followed your advice, they'd have 10 players that were 30+ years old, and that includes Atogwe and Cullen Jenkins.

I forgot to add in Beck, so I guess that would move the total up to 11 lol...(insert Spinal Tap joke here).

I should add though, I hope/presume that Chris Wilson doesn't make the team. After four years, he hasn't proven he can be more than a meddling, sparsely effective backup. And he's 29. If we were to replace his spot on the roster, along with HB Blades' (who is only 26), with say a 31 year old inside linebacking veteran, I think that's a good move.

Yes, technically, we get older. But Blades doesn't have a long-term future here any more than Wilson or this hypothetical ILB. Plus, between Fletcher (35), Riley (23), and Henson (25), we have inside linebackers that are on the polar extremes of age. I think this team needs a veteran linebacker to take over for Fletcher when he inevitably declines/retires. And provide stable, spot-starting duties, with competition in camp/practice. Of course, I love Lorenzo Alexander as a player on this team and am hopeful he can be a highly effective run-stopping ILB, I like him more as that wild card linebacker who can do a bit of everything.

And to clarify, if we can add a free agent nose tackle, I don't expect Bryant to be back (with Neild ideally winning that backup spot). Sellers I'm not sure makes it but Shanahan seems to like him, he still excels on special teams, is one of those Fletcher/Daniels type lockerroom vocal leaders, and isn't a bad 52nd or 53rd guy to have on the team (filling the sort of Rock Cartwright role of old).

I also expect us to sign a veteran corner to go along with Hall, Barnes, and Westbrook. Maybe two. And who the hell knows what Shanahan plans to do on the offensive line -- he did mention a while back that he wanted our young guys like Robinson and even Lichensteiger to be ideally backups, but there's no way I'll be able to find that quote.

For a rebuilding team, it really seems like we're going to have a relatively paltry amount of veterans, 30 years and older

[tr1]

Free agency is not evil...picking the wrong free agent is evil.