When will we EVER learn? Redskins fans, some of the biggest hypocrites around .....

[Oldfan]

There are going to be hits and misses in both the draft and free agency, but as long as the FO doesnt write up stupid contract that put the future in peril, then I

really dont see the harm in signing a top tiered player.

And so far this regime has shown they know how to write contracts.

Myth: Bruce Allen gets players to sign at bargain prices. Fact: When Bruce Allen gets a free agent to sign, it will probably be because he is the high bidder -- when he is the high bidder, it will be very likely that he overpaid.

Why Free Agents Will Disappoint"

[addicted]

Myth: Bruce Allen gets players to sign at bargain prices. Fact: When Bruce Allen gets a free agent to sign, it will probably be because he is the high bidder -- when he is the high bidder, it will be very likely that he overpaid.

Bet you'd say that about every team...they probably overpaid...FACT

Add the word cranky to your name and it would fit.

I really hate it when the same tired voices ruin threads here because they just squat a thread and don't add anything new to the topic. They aren't listening or reasoning enough to change an opinion. Really makes this forum unbearable

Oh and don't forget God told our last FA to come here:

http://www.hogshaven.com/2011/6/30/2252858/free-safety-o-j-atogwe-working-out-in-minnesota

[The Tris]

It's not about age. London Fletcher is a BAMF and he's old!

Your post assumes that London Fletcher is the norm for aging players, when he is actually the exception.

LF is a BAMF because of his exceptional-ness, not because he is a run of the mill player.

[santanathegreat]

Myth: Bruce Allen gets players to sign at bargain prices. Fact: When Bruce Allen gets a free agent to sign, it will probably be because he is the high bidder -- when he is the high bidder, it will be very likely that he overpaid.

Why Free Agents Will Disappoint"

Ehhh...what the heck does that article have to do with Bruce Allen? The article talks about SNYDER overpaying, and it was written in April 2010. No mention of Bruce Allen whatsoever.

And what you posted is flat-out inaccurate. Bruce Allen does not have a history of overspending...it's actually the opposite.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Two quick points here:

1. Even if we go 0-16 this year what guarentee do you have that says we will take a QB? There isn't one. That's a point you seem to be forgetting. There is no guarentee that Shanny likes any of the QB's coming out next year. Would you be happy tanking the season and then watching us pass on a QB? Could happen if this draft was any indication

2. We have to spend money. Sorry but that's the way it is. Remember the draft where New Orleans gave us all those picks? What's to stop us this year from building a bad ass team which is missing a QB and next year we trading away multiple picks to get the guy we want? Nothing. And if we are truely one QB away from greatness that would be a move we should make. I don't subscribe to the dumbass idea floating on this forum we are the suckiest we have been in the last decade. You don't get the wins we did last year with a suck ass team. We aren't that far away.

1. Without being privy to Shanahan's thought process there is no guarantee of what direction we'd go in come draft time it's true. But after realising from day one the glaring need for a top class QB here, and subsequently there in ditching Campbell; going in REAL hard for Bradford; and when we came up short there making the play for what on paper looked a proven, reliable vet; not to mention I fully believe Jake Locker was his man this past draft before the Titan's decided otherwise; I think it's safe to say getting in a QB is high on the list.

2. I don't subscribe to that notion either that the current team is one of the worst in a decade. I see a lot of good being put in place with some real quality young talent. But without anything approaching a competent pro QB, it doesn't matter a jot how much talent is out there. It will, IMHO, as it has 9 times out of 10 since the last Lombardi, all fall down on offense and sub standard QB play. Throw in an OC that doesn't seem to appreciate that we actually can run the football, and I really fear for the offense this season. that said, I can't agree that we aren't "that far away", regardless of how hard we played last year. We have a slowly developing group of young guys, but that still needs augmenting with more and they all still need a good duration to fully develop in the pro game. I honestly, even if we end up with a Luck or Jones in next years draft, don't expect the Redskins to be challenging until year 4/5 of this regime.

And again, I aren't opposed at all to bringing in FA. I don't know how that keeps getting lost but regardless, the issue at hand is about the RIGHT free agents in terms of age and value for were we are at right now.

Hail.

[addicted]

Your post assumes that London Fletcher is the norm for aging players, when he is actually the exception.

LF is a BAMF because of his exceptional-ness, not because he is a run of the mill player.

You miss the point that we have had successful older players here over the years and that age isn't a representation of how good or bad a player is. Remember Darrell Green? Seriously the point is you don't fall off a cliff when you turn 30 in the NFL, age isn't some magical thing where you can tell how valuable a player is

[MattFancy]

I've always wanted to start a thread like this. The same people that clamor for those big name FAs are the same ones bashing the FO when it doesn't work out. You can't have it both ways.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

You miss the point that we have had successful older players here over the years and that age isn't a representation of how good or bad a player is. Remember Darrell Green? Seriously the point is you don't fall off a cliff when you turn 30 in the NFL, age isn't some magical thing where you can tell how valuable a player is

But age sure as heck plays a part when your a long ways from challenging and (allegedly) in the midst of a youth movement re-build.

But being as you believe we aren't that far away anyway's, then adding older, veteran guys to take us over the top wouldn't be a bad policy for you.

Hail.

[Oldfan]

Ehhh...what the heck does that article have to do with Bruce Allen? The article talks about SNYDER overpaying, and it was written in April 2010. No mention of Bruce Allen whatsoever.

And what you posted is flat-out inaccurate. Bruce Allen does not have a history of overspending...it's actually the opposite.

That article explains why it is very likely that free agents will disappoint. It applies to Bruce Allen and every GM in the NFL. As for Bruce Allen's history, if you understand Brian Burke's argument, it is very likely that Bruce and all other GMS have overspent for free agents.

If you think Burke's argument is flawed, tell me how. Let's discuss it.

[addicted]

1. Without being privy to Shanahan's thought process there is no guarantee of what direction we'd go in come draft time it's true. But after realising from day one the glaring need for a top class QB here, and subsequently there in ditching Campbell; going in REAL hard for Bradford; and when we came up short there making the play for what on paper looked a proven, reliable vet; not to mention I fully believe Jake Locker was his man this past draft before the Titan's decided otherwise; I think it's safe to say getting in a QB is high on the list.

We are speculating, both of us on what we have said here. I realize that. I'm just asking how you would feel if the unthinkable happened and we did actually tank a season and then passed on a QB? Would you be happy/sad or what. When you say you don't care if we tank the season I read that as a forgone conclussion that in your mind it means the end goal of a top flight franchise QB as the net result. Could be or couldn't be. We don't know. So without knowing that I think its important to review all sides of the coin and not just hope (not that you are just saying) that one leads to another when it could be it just doesn't

2. I don't subscribe to that notion either that the current team is one of the worst in a decade. I see a lot of good being put in place with some real quality young talent. But without anything approaching a competent pro QB, it doesn't matter a jot how much talent is out there. It will, IMHO, as it has 9 times out of 10 since the last Lombardi, all fall down on offense and sub standard QB play. Throw in an OC that doesn't seem to appreciate that we actually can run the football, and I really fear for the offense this season. that said, I can't agree that we aren't "that far away", regardless of how hard we played last year. We have a slowly developing group of young guys, but that still needs augmenting with more and they all still need a good duration to fully develop in the pro game. I honestly, even if we end up with a Luck or Jones in next years draft, don't expect the Redskins to be challenging until year 4/5 of this regime.

It was year 1 in a 43 to 34 change man. In my mind two things kept this team as it was then out of contention for the playoffs - Our kicking game was freaking putrid. I know lots of man crushes exist for Gano but in my mind he single handly cost us 4 games. If he makes the missed kicks we could have been 10-6, good enough for the paloffs. And the second our new and less improved Defense.Call me an optimist but with what we done in the draft I'm excited for year two on the Defense. Add some quality guys and that's much improved and we could go to the paloffs this season. Your right we need a QB and we have lots of ways to get one. We could pull a Saints move and get one, one could fall in our laps, we could bring in a FA and he turn out to be great, we could keep McNugget and he rise like a pheonix, or even the most impossible could happen and John Beck could be our savior. We don't know.

And again, I aren't opposed at all to bringing in FA. I don't know how that keeps getting lost but regardless, the issue at hand is about the RIGHT free agents in terms of age and value for were we are at right now.

Hail.

My wish for FA is that we throw out the top three guys at every position availible except the offensive line. Then we right the offensive line with the absolute best talent availible and for every other position we spend our remaining money and bring in lesser talent for competion. Who those guys are idk, nor do I care. My job is to be a fan not to armchair QB all the time over every detail. The coaches are paid to do that and so far so good, OJ is a great addition imo

[The Tris]

You miss the point that we have had successful older players here over the years and that age isn't a representation of how good or bad a player is. Remember Darrell Green? Seriously the point is you don't fall off a cliff when you turn 30 in the NFL, age isn't some magical thing where you can tell how valuable a player is

That's even better, using one of the greatest CBs of all time as a comp for how the average NFL player ages.

DG ran a 4.4 forty when he was 50 years old! Thats once-in-a-lifetime freakish athleticism. But yeah, he and the most productive LB of the past decade are two good comparisons for us to use.

[Oldfan]

I've always wanted to start a thread like this. The same people that clamor for those big name FAs are the same ones bashing the FO when it doesn't work out. You can't have it both ways.

Every big name coach or player ever signed by Dan Snyder has been enthusiastically supported by the fans when it happened. It will happen again this year.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Also this is a question to everybody:

In this past decade what Redskins players have been held down the roster due to FA's that have gone on to have success elsewhere? Off the top of my head Ryan Clark comes to mind.

Well, bringing in Brunell kept a young Patrick Ramsey from developing on our team...and when he left here, he--oh, wait.

Bringing in Portis kept Ladell Betts from developing, and when he left here, he--oh, wait.

Trading for Santana Moss definitely hindered the development of the young Taylor Jacobs and Darnerien Mccants...because when they left here, they--oh, wait.

Signing London Fletcher obviously stunted the growth of Matt Sinclair...because after leaving the Redskins, he--oh, wait.

The signing of Fred Smoot stopped the development of John Eubanks and Leigh Torrence in their tracks, because after leaving here they both went on to become starters in--oh, wait.

Antwaan Randle-El most definitely ruined the development of Devin Thomas by taking playing time away from him...because when he left the team, he--oh, wait.

Getting Donovan McNabb and Rex Grossman stunted the growth of Colt Brennan like no other...because he went on to--oh, wait.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

addicted...I'm curious which 4 games you pin on Gano. If you take those 4 and add in the chance that a normal snap/hold would have given us a 50/50 chance to beat the Bucs, 11-5 would have been nice!

[addicted]

That's even better, using one of the greatest CBs of all time as a comp for how the average NFL player ages.

DG ran a 4.4 forty when he was 50 years old! Thats once-in-a-lifetime freakish athleticism. But yeah, he and the most productive LB of the past decade are two good comparisons for us to use.

Ok pal your starting to get on my nerves with this. This is the last time I'll try and talk to you about your age issue.

http://top100.nfl.com/

Enjoy looking that list over. In the top 10 you got 2 guys that are younger then 30, in fact the list is full of over 30 year olds. I mentioned Darrell Green because we are Skins fans and thought it would jog your memory that we've had a lot of success with older players, your just not listening and I'm out

[santanathegreat]

That article explains why it is very likely that free agents will disappoint. It applies to Bruce Allen and every GM in the NFL. As for Bruce Allen's history, if you understand Brian Burke's argument, it is very likely that Bruce and all other GMS have overspent for free agents.

If you think Burke's argument is flawed, tell me how. Let's discuss it.

So your stance is essentially that that every free agent is overpaid. Well, I'll disagree. London Fletcher is not overpaid. Neither is Anthony Armstrong, OJ Atogwe. If you spend wisely on the right players (i.e. not Fat Albert), you'll get what you pay for. Saying that most free agents are overpaid is not saying much...however, saying that the Redskins should not be players in the FA market because most free agents are overpaid is foolish. Good teams build through the draft, trades, AND free agency.

[addicted]

addicted...I'm curious which 4 games you pin on Gano. If you take those 4 and add in the chance that a normal snap/hold would have given us a 50/50 chance to beat the Bucs, 11-5 would have been nice!

I looked that up a long time ago, I suffer from short term memory issues but if you want to look at my posts here last season you'll see me lose my mind over and over again about Gano. In fact I'm pretty sure I posted a long look at those games in its own thread. It didn't go over too well because of the man love that he gets here but it's there. Sorry got to get back to work

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Also this is a question to everybody:

In this past decade what Redskins players have been held down the roster due to FA's that have gone on to have success elsewhere? Off the top of my head Ryan Clark comes to mind.

Why is the question so specific? I would agree that I don't know of any gems that were left rotting on our bench. However, bringing in FAs alters draft strategies and keeps you from signing younger players at those positions.

So, it's not only the players you currently have on your roster but the potential players you would have taken had the FAs not been on your roster as well. That's similar to the trading picks for veterans. Instead of McNabb, for example, we could have had two players picked relatively high in the draft (2nd and 3rd round). The same principle applies if you spend $50M for a FA linebacker. Odds are, you're not going to draft the best available player if it happens to be a guy who plays LB since you've married yourself to that player/contract for a while.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I've always wanted to start a thread like this. The same people that clamor for those big name FAs are the same ones bashing the FO when it doesn't work out. You can't have it both ways.

It's no different than knowing a large segment of those claiming we need to start young players and let them "develop" over the next 2-3 years will also be among those wanting those same players cut when the Skins start out 1-4...they'll be among the ES members seeing Atogwe returning an INT for a TD for the Vikings and saying "Why can't we have a free safety who plays like that?" after seeing Moore get burnt yet again...neither side has a monopoly on hypocritical rhetoric lol.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

addicted...I'm curious which 4 games you pin on Gano. If you take those 4 and add in the chance that a normal snap/hold would have given us a 50/50 chance to beat the Bucs, 11-5 would have been nice!

That would of been real nice TD_w man. But totally flattering to deceive on a team that was far from an 11 win quality win, and one which doubtless wouldn't have gone far in the post-season. Had that scenario played out, it could well of made the premiss for this thread even worse as there's a fair chance it would of said to all concerned that yet again we where only one or two big names away, the youth movement would maybe of been sacrificed, and we'd be fully back in the "win now" mode that has both haunted us and lead us absolutely nowhere for nigh on two decades now.

Hail.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Why is the question so specific? I would agree that I don't know of any gems that were left rotting on our bench. However, bringing in FAs alters draft strategies and keeps you from signing younger players at those positions.

No it doesn't. In fact, I would imagine that free agent signings are a part OF draft strategies around the league.

Besides, signing Atogwe or Jenkins doesn't mean the Redskins won't look to draft a free safety, DE or NT next year and the year after. I do find it funny, though, that when Vinny drafted a TE when we already had a very good vet TE on the roster, nobody on here applauded it as a smart move lol ...

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I looked that up a long time ago, I suffer from short term memory issues but if you want to look at my posts here last season you'll see me lose my mind over and over again about Gano. In fact I'm pretty sure I posted a long look at those games in its own thread. It didn't go over too well because of the man love that he gets here but it's there. Sorry got to get back to work

I checked superficially (not looking deep into games that might have gotten way out of control after misses or anything like that) and found 4 games in which the score differential was greater than or equal to the missed field goals and I confirmed your count of 4 (though one was the Bucs, so I would have been double-counting that one when I stated 11-5). Here is the list:

vs. Houston - lost 30-27 in OT and Gano missed 2 FGs

vs. Indianapolis - lost 27-24 and Gano missed 1 FG

vs. Tampa - lost 17-16 and Gano missed 2 FGs

vs. New York - lost 17-14 and Gano missed 1 FG

So, not that you can assume a kicker will make every FG attempt, but if he makes all those kicks we have 2 more wins for sure and shot at winning two other games.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I wonder how our views on free agency and the Redskins' offseason moves would be changed if free agency didn't start until after the draft?...

I know there was a thread about this but don't feel like looking it up lol...

[TD_washingtonredskins]

No it doesn't. In fact, I would imagine that free agent signings are a part OF draft strategies around the league.

Besides, signing Atogwe or Jenkins doesn't mean the Redskins won't look to draft a free safety, DE or NT next year and the year after. I do find it funny, though, that when Vinny drafted a TE when we already had a very good vet TE on the roster, nobody on here applauded it as a smart move lol ...

I guess it depends on the position. LB was a bad example since you need to play at least 3-4 of them in every single game. What if we went out and signed a high-priced featured RB via FA. Do you really believe that if a RB was the BPA in the following draft, we'd draft him? I don't.

[The Tris]

Ok pal

It seems you are the one that has decided to cop an attitude. Not me.

your starting to get on my nerves with this. This is the last time I'll try and talk to you about your age issue.

I am simply pointing out the flaws in your logic. If that angers you, I'm sorry.

http://top100.nfl.com/

Enjoy looking that list over. In the top 10 you got 2 guys that are younger then 30, in fact the list is full of over 30 year olds.

Let's pretend that list isn't hugely flawed for a moment, and I count 30 of 100 players on that list as 30 or over.

I mentioned Darrell Green because we are Skins fans and thought it would jog your memory that we've had a lot of success with older players, your just not listening and I'm out

You mentioned Darrell Green as an example of a player who played at a high level into his late 30s, as if this would prove your point.

What you fail to acknowledge was just how special Green was, and how he is the exception, and not the rule.

And citing 2 exceptional players who are truly special in terms of their ablility to play at a high level late into their careers is not exactly "a lot" success in my book - it speaks to how rare those players are.

Finally, I'd add that I am not saying players "drop off a cliff" at 30, I am saying that at 30, most (not all) players are exiting their prime, and their play is in relative decline.

For a team that is on the verge of a Super Bowl run, these vets are great additions for one or two years to get the over the top. For a team that is being built to peak 3, 4, 5 years from now, they are wasteful quick fixes that we would be better served not signing.