When will we EVER learn? Redskins fans, some of the biggest hypocrites around .....

[Califan007 The Constipated]

For those saying "balance, balance", can you explain how signing Atogwe, J Joseph, Franklin, Jenkins, Harris, and D Joseph to what would be $200 M in total contracts (more than any one Cerrato offseason) is in anyway balance?

Who is saying "balance balance" AND saying "sign Atogwe, J Joseph, Jenkins, Harris and D Joseph" on this thread?

[The Tris]

great. we will have another medicore seasona and miss out on luck or barkley and looking for a long term solution at QB yet again. its a never ending cycle

MS rep is on the line. He's not going to have a second straight losing season. So he is going to sign as many players as necessary to microwave a 9-7 team.

It will be instant gratification for many, and prompt lots of "told yas".

Meanwhile we be going on our 18th straight season with out a franchise passer, and be picking in the high teens.

---------- Post added July-10th-2011 at 09:46 PM ----------

Who is saying "balance balance" AND saying "sign Atogwe, J Joseph, Jenkins, Harris and D Joseph" on this thread?

This is not the only FA thread. People on here are posting in others as well.

What is your idea of the balanced signings we should make?

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

MS rep is on the line. He's not going to have a second straight losing season. So he is going to sign as many players as necessary to microwave a 9-7 team.

It will be instant gratification for many, and prompt lots of "told yas".

Meanwhile we be going on our 18th straight season with out a franchise passer, and be picking in the high teens.

I sadly fear this too man. To paraphrase an earlier post, " ... and so the cycle continues."

Hail.

[The Tris]

I sadly fear this too man. To paraphrase an earlier post, " ... and so the cycle continues."

Hail.

This is when we need a strong GM with control to both temper the quick fixes and to ensure the coach that he has his back in the event of a rough season.

[Beans]

Meanwhile we be going on our 18th straight season with out a franchise passer, and be picking in the high teens.

18th? More like 27th. The Skins haven't had a franchise QB since Joey T. <--Rhymes

Goshdamn crackhead had to break his leg. I still believe to this day the Skins would have another Lombardi presently if LT hadn't gone all crack head on Joe's leg.

---------- Post added July-10th-2011 at 09:54 PM ----------

I sadly fear this too man. To paraphrase an earlier post, " ... and so the cycle continues."

Hail.

We can agree on this for sure.

MS is not my choice of coach. Unfortunately, it is what it is. I hope his desperation doesn't cripple the franchise for yet another half decade.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

18th? More like 27th. The Skins haven't had a franchise QB since Joey T. <--Rhymes

Goddamn crackhead had to break his leg. I still believe to this day the Skins would have had another Lombardi presently if LT hadn't gone all crack head on Joe's leg.

I'd actually take it all the way back to Sonny, who hung it up in '74. Theismann had a few good years at the end, but he was pretty darn average for me as a QB. Certainly not 'franchise' calibre IMHO. We've had a few flurry's with good ones, but I honestly don't believe we've had a true franchise QB since Sonny J.

And that is nothing short of criminal for any franchise to endure. Let alone a 3 time Lombardi winning one.

Hail.

[KCClybun]

For those saying "balance, balance", can you explain how signing Atogwe, J Joseph, Franklin, Jenkins, Harris, and D Joseph to what would be $200 M in total contracts (more than any one Cerrato offseason) is in anyway balance?

I don't think anyone arguing for a balanced approach is advocating signing all those guys, and to assume they are pretty much insults guys like me, who said nothing of the short. There's cheaper, young options floating around in free agency. I didn't say that. I don't think SonnyandSam said that.

Again...this is the problem with this fanbase. It HAS to be "SIGN ALL THESE GUYS!" or it has to be "SIGN NO ONE!". Why can't you do both?

Why can't you sign a COUPLE---not ten friggin' guys, but two or three key signings? Why is signing ANYONE that's 30 years old a bad thing?

The best teams in the league operate with a balanced approach. Undoubtedly they look to get younger and replenish their football teams with youth, but they don't shy away for signing free agent guys either.

You know what you get a team full of young guys with no veterans and lots of first-and-second year guys starting?

You get the 2-14 Carolina Panthers. And while some people say "I'd gladly lose a whole season if it meant young guys got more playing time and we got a top ten pick to pick up another young player", all it would take is a season of that crap for all the smug folks who say it to turn their season and start going on about veteran leadership. You really think the Carolina Panthers are going to be a better football team because they lost all those games with all those young guys?

People also act like we have some decrepid, old football team when we're actually relatively young and got younger during the season...

[The Tris]

18th? More like 27th. The Skins haven't had a franchise QB since Joey T. <--Rhymes

Goshdamn crackhead had to break his leg. I still believe to this day the Skins would have another Lombardi presently if LT hadn't gone all crack head on Joe's leg.

I actually agree, but said 18 for the sake of argument.

We can agree on this for sure.

MS is not my choice of coach. Unfortunately, it is what it is. I hope his desperation doesn't cripple the franchise for yet another half decade.

I actually think MS the coach is one of the better pure coaches in the league.

I also think MS the GM is one of the worst GMs in the league. Which is why he needs a strong GM to work with like he had pre-1999.

[skinfan2k]

Ok then he better solve his issue with McNabb and give him the best weapons possibly and try to win a superbowl in the next 2 years while we get younger with the draft picks and supply him with a veteran O-line.

[Beans]

And that is nothing short of criminal for any franchise to endure. Let alone a 3 time Lombardi winning one.

Hail.

A-****ing-men.

Hail.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I'd take a 2-14 Panther esq season in a freeking heartbeat to get the most important player in place on this or any other team for the next decade and more. And I truly believe Luck and Jones fit that to a tee.

So yes, I think we'd be a better football team if we lost out with young guys. We'd be a year further along in their experience and development, within the second year of two new systems; and we'd have what we so crave, a franchise caliber QB to take this on to a whole other level.

Hail.

[skinfan2k]

We can younger at every position or bring in that polished veteran, but until we find a franchise QB through the draft, we are not going anywhere

[Beans]

I'd take a 2-14 Panther esq season in a freeking heartbeat to get the most important player in place on this or any other team for the next decade and more. And I truly believe Luck and Jones fit that to a tee.

So yes, I think we'd be a better football team if we lost out with young guys. We'd be a year further along in their experience and development, within the second year of two new systems; and we'd have what we so crave, a franchise caliber QB to take this on to a whole other level.

Hail.

Completely disagree. There is no guarantee on Luck or Jones or Barkley or whomever...There is a good chance Luck could be a dud. Can you believe that? Well, you wouldn't know it the way some talk around here...

I don't want the team I root for to be the worst in the league. The key, in my mind, is to create a winning culture. Make your players believe. If they don't believe, they'll never win. Sounds corny. I know. But, when was the last time that we had a Redskins team to root for that you think actually believed they could go all the way?

[SkinsHokieFan]

Completely disagree. There is no guarantee on Luck or Jones or Barkley or whomever...There is a good chance Luck could be a dud. Can you believe that? Well, you wouldn't know it the way some talk around here...

I don't want the team I root for to be the worst in the league. The key, in my mind, is to create a winning culture. Make your players believe. If they don't believe, they'll never win. Sounds corny. I know. But, when was the last time that we had a Redskins team to root for that you think actually believed they could go all the way?

There is nothing wrong with creating a winning culture. And playing young guys is not mutually exclusive from that.

Signing a bunch of guys to improve from 6-10 to 9-7 doesn't do much for the long term results for this franchise.

In the 21st century NFL you need that QB who has the ability to will you to victory

[jflow78]

I'd take a 2-14 Panther esq season in a freeking heartbeat to get the most important player in place on this or any other team for the next decade and more. And I truly believe Luck and Jones fit that to a tee.

So yes, I think we'd be a better football team if we lost out with young guys. We'd be a year further along in their experience and development, within the second year of two new systems; and we'd have what we so crave, a franchise caliber QB to take this on to a whole other level.

Hail.

I'll take 2-14 this season FAR over 2-14 last season. There is no way in **** I would want to be stuck with Newton at #1, and even though I'm against planning for a draft a year ahead of time because there are too many variables, I will take next year's group over Newton ANY DAY.

Thinking about being stuck with a guy like that and having the #1 pick makes me nauseous. He is definitely no where close to a guaranteed thing. Luck might have a horrible season, god forbid an injury that takes him out all year, and I'd still pick him (even with leg amputation) over Newton.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

This is not the only FA thread. People on here are posting in others as well.

Ok, who's saying "balance balance" AND saying "sign Atogwe, J Joseph, Jenkins, Harris and D Joseph" on ANOTHER thread? lol...I have seen some give a laundry list of FAs they'd like the Skins to sign, but I don't recall anyone giving such a list claiming that it's "balance" they're hoping to achieve by signing 5-6 "name" free agents.

What is your idea of the balanced signings we should make?

The three biggest areas of need (outside of QB) were free safety, NT and RT. Finding a quality starter or two this year for those three areas in free agency would be "balance" imo...signing a few more role guys for depth would also be fine. NOT signing them would be fine as well lol. Unlike some on this site I'm not gonna have a conniption fit either way. I'm not gonna think we're royally screwed if we do/don't sign (fill in the blank). I'm not gonna hope and pray we lose as often as possible, thinking the only way the Skins will ever become good again is to draft Andrew Luck.

If Shanahan and Allen aren't able to turn the Redskins into consistent winners without tanking seasons and having multiple top 3 draft picks then we are completely screwed whether we get Andrew Luck or not.

[SonnyandSam]

By that logic, free agency is totally worthless if you are going to sign players like Vinnie Cerrato

Absolutely agree 100%. We need good talent evaluators in the front office and a coach who can also evaluate talent that fits his system. That is the way to build a great team. Look at all the best teams and you see front office and coaching personnel who have gotten it right more often than they got it wrong...both drafting and signing free agents.

The question is Bruce Allen and Mike Shanahan any good at identifying talented football players, whether young or veteran. Remember, the college and professional scouting staff is essentially the same as it was when Vinnie was here.

[Beans]

There is nothing wrong with creating a winning culture. And playing young guys is not mutually exclusive from that.

Signing a bunch of guys to improve from 6-10 to 9-7 doesn't do much for the long term results for this franchise.

In the 21st century NFL you need that QB who has the ability to will you to victory

Agree on all counts. I would love to have Luck. Do I want the Skins to draft 1st overall? **** no. As far as I can recall, the Skins have never held the 1st pick. I like that.

[GaryGreenMonk]

I'm interested in knowing how they came up with 45 million of free space..

For example is McNabb included since he's technically "under contract"

I'm assuming Grossman, Carlos, Moss, Rocky, Phil Buchanon, J. Brown and all the rookies are not included, since they are all free agents or unsigned.

I know McNabb will be gone and maybe some others like Kemoatu that are counted in the cap space, but retaining or replacing Grossman, Carlos, Moss, Rocky, Phil and Brown will be costly.

You re-sign or replace those positions and get the rookies that we keep signed up.. I'm not sure there's a ton left. Maybe 15 million left after that?

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Completely disagree. There is no guarantee on Luck or Jones or Barkley or whomever...There is a good chance Luck could be a dud. Can you believe that? Well, you wouldn't know it the way some talk around here...

I don't want the team I root for to be the worst in the league. The key, in my mind, is to create a winning culture. Make your players believe. If they don't believe, they'll never win. Sounds corny. I know. But, when was the last time that we had a Redskins team to root for that you think actually believed they could go all the way?

See, whilst I agree in principle with all you say in the above post, the last line pulls it all down for me. We won't get that feeling again until we have the QB in place IMHO.

Of course there's no guarantee Luck, or the one I really covert the Sooner Jones, will be a success in the pros. that's the chance you take on any rookie pick at any position. And under normal circumstances I'd be 100% behind you in wanting my team to be as successful as possible. But I happen to believe, just as I did with his predecessor at OU Bradford, that Jones has every facet going for him to be a great success in the pros. As does Luck. And hot darn if we don't desperately need someone of their ilk. So, this not being normal circumstances, I'd happily take that chance of being in a position for either one.

I'm beyond sick and tired of having hard work undone by mediocre QB play. WAY beyond sick and tired of it.

Hail.

[KCClybun]

I'd take a 2-14 Panther esq season in a freeking heartbeat to get the most important player in place on this or any other team for the next decade and more. And I truly believe Luck and Jones fit that to a tee.

So yes, I think we'd be a better football team if we lost out with young guys. We'd be a year further along in their experience and development, within the second year of two new systems; and we'd have what we so crave, a franchise caliber QB to take this on to a whole other level.

Hail.

God, I am so sick of hearing about Andrew Luck that I'll be furious if we draft him...

Let me put this very plainly; we're not a franchise quarterback away from jack squat. We are not READY for a quarterback.

Period. I don't want to hear crap all about quarterbacks. We are not a quarterback away from "finally turning the corner". I'm so sick of "we need a franchise quarterback, we need a franchise quarterback". Drafting a quarterback without a team around him is essentially dooming a guy to failure.

I mean...there's a followable template for success here. Joe Flacco, Mark Sanchez, Matt Ryan, Sam Bradford, all drafted to teams that had average-to above average (or pretty damn good) defenses, solid offensive lines, and a couple good weapons for them to start with. "But what about the Lions and the Bucs..." Yeah, the Lions and the Bucs didn't get better until year two when they built their teams around those guys, but it's a longer, riskier road. If you don't have those things...well, you end up with Matthew Stafford having boatloads of potential but getting the crap beat out of him on a weekly basis until he gets injured because he has to shoulder the entire load of their football teams. Freeman sucked with a sucky team in his first games starting, then they built a team around him in the offseason (via the draft and that dreaded enemy, free agency) and he succeeded.

It's funny that people sit here and talk about how foolish it is to pin the hopes of a football team on a couple high priced free agents, when the "it's okay if we lose because then we can at least get Luck!" (I'm not counting Jones, he's a friggin' underclassmen and he still might not declare) are just as bad, if not even worse. "I don't want some 30-year-old guy who is past his prime, I want a 23-year-old guy who I don't know will ever have a prime!"

The Suck for Luck campaign needs to die in the fiery pits of Hades...

[Bubble Screen]

God, I am so sick of hearing about Andrew Luck that I'll be furious if we draft him...

Let me put this very plainly; we're not a franchise quarterback away from jack squat. We are not READY for a quarterback.

Period. I don't want to hear crap all about quarterbacks. We are not a quarterback away from "finally turning the corner". I'm so sick of "we need a franchise quarterback, we need a franchise quarterback". Drafting a quarterback without a team around him is essentially dooming a guy to failure.

I mean...there's a followable template for success here. Joe Flacco, Mark Sanchez, Matt Ryan, Sam Bradford, all drafted to teams that had average-to above average (or pretty damn good) defenses, solid offensive lines, and a couple good weapons for them to start with. "But what about the Lions and the Bucs..." Yeah, the Lions and the Bucs didn't get better until year two when they built their teams around those guys, but it's a longer, riskier road. If you don't have those things...well, you end up with Matthew Stafford having boatloads of potential but getting the crap beat out of him on a weekly basis until he gets injured because he has to shoulder the entire load of their football teams. Freeman sucked with a sucky team in his first games starting, then they built a team around him in the offseason (via the draft and that dreaded enemy, free agency) and he succeeded.

It's funny that people sit here and talk about how foolish it is to pin the hopes of a football team on a couple high priced free agents, when the "it's okay if we lose because then we can at least get Luck!" (I'm not counting Jones, he's a friggin' underclassmen and he still might not declare) are just as bad, if not even worse. "I don't want some 30-year-old guy who is past his prime, I want a 23-year-old guy who I don't know will ever have a prime!"

The Suck for Luck campaign needs to die in the fiery pits of Hades...

U mad.

[SonnyandSam]

MS rep is on the line. He's not going to have a second straight losing season. So he is going to sign as many players as necessary to microwave a 9-7 team.

It will be instant gratification for many, and prompt lots of "told yas".

Meanwhile we be going on our 18th straight season with out a franchise passer, and be picking in the high teens.

And exactly how are you going to guarantee that that high draft pick QB is going to be a franchise QB and not Heath Shuler, Ryan Leaf, Jamarcus Russell, Art Shlichter, Kelly Stouffer, Mike Phipps, etc. , etc, etc. Drafting is a crapshoot. People say we should use the draft only and they conveniently forget that most of the players drafted never make it in the NFL. Recent studies of just the top ten picks show only about 30 percent of the top ten picks can be classified as good or great.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

How can you never 'not be ready for a QB?"

I presume you mean with the state of the line, but I honestly don't reason that line of thinking. If you can put the most important player on the team in place, the most important building block, you do it in a heartbeat if you believe he's your man. NO exceptions.

I don't think, or at least I hope not, that anyone in their right mind would think we'd suddenly become over night winners with Luck or Jones or whomever under center. But it sure would be a start to getting back to where we so crave to be.

Hail.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Let me put this very plainly; we're not a franchise quarterback away from jack squat. We are not READY for a quarterback..

When is a team "Ready" for a QB? Had we managed to get Bradford last year, we'd be in far better shape today

Period. I don't want to hear crap all about quarterbacks. We are not a quarterback away from "finally turning the corner". I'm so sick of "we need a franchise quarterback, we need a franchise quarterback". Drafting a quarterback without a team around him is essentially dooming a guy to failure.

The 80s are over. The rules have changed where QB's dominate this league. The best teams year in year out have the best QBs. Its how the Colts are able to keep going when Marvin Harrison retires and have a couple of 6th and 7th round WRs starting for them.

I mean...there's a followable template for success here. Joe Flacco, Mark Sanchez, Matt Ryan, Sam Bradford, all drafted to teams that had average-to above average (or pretty damn good) defenses, solid offensive lines, and a couple good weapons for them to start with.

The Falcons were coming off a disaster of a season and had the 3rd pick overall when they got Ryan. Bradford was the number 1 pick coming to a miserable Rams squad who had won 6 games over the past 3 seasons. Flacco was drafted after a 5-11 campaign by the Ravens, and the Jets traded UP to get Sanchez.

"But what about the Lions and the Bucs..." Yeah, the Lions and the Bucs didn't get better until year two when they built their teams around those guys, but it's a longer, riskier road. If you don't have those things...well, you end up with Matthew Stafford having boatloads of potential but getting the crap beat out of him on a weekly basis until he gets injured because he has to shoulder the entire load of their football teams. Freeman sucked with a sucky team in his first games starting, then they built a team around him in the offseason (via the draft and that dreaded enemy, free agency) and he succeeded.

I would trade our rosters for theirs in a heart beat. The Bucs hit some home runs with young drafted talent and Freeman is leading a team on the rise.

The Suck for Luck campaign needs to die in the fiery pits of Hades...

You'll be loving seeing this in B&G

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