When will we EVER learn? Redskins fans, some of the biggest hypocrites around .....

[SkinsHokieFan]

So you're saying that because we signed London Fletcher our record has been bad? I'd say our record has been bad in SPITE of us signing Fletcher. He's been about the ONLY right thing we've done on defense this side of switching Landry to play closer to the line.

Steve asked how the move worked out for us. Thats how it worked out for us. And I am a huge London Fletcher fan.

The issue is, the talent around him is so bad, that his signing has essentially had no positive impact on our W/L record. So there really hasn't been much of a point to it.

You get a good young core in here and then add in guys like London to fill in holes. We don't do step 1

[jflow78]

I agree.

The roster on this team is a bottom 3 roster. We don't have to "tank" the talent is that bad.

However, we don't need to go out and sign a bunch of guys either. Let this roster play out this year and lets end up in the top 5.

And plenty of people were very skeptical about the QB class this past season. I for one was not a fan of it once Luck elected to stay in school

My point is, every year people will inevitably believe we can wait to draft a QB until next season because there's going to be SOME guy that has the potential to be better than the guys currently in the draft (too bad that guy won't live up to the potential either, and so the cycle continues). I think THAT is the reason we've been in this situation more than any other, we continuously fail to draft necessity parts because we see the guy that looks "flashy" as a justifiable pick because, "well we need (OL/DL/QB) but next year's group is better". Past Luck, I don't believe any of the QBs next season have any more potential or talent than the guys taken in the last 3 drafts, but that's just my opinion.

[Mahons21]

9-7, 8-8, 4-12, 6-10 :whoknows:

What teams have built a consistent contender following the plan you seem to be promoting?

I can name countless teams that have acquired FAs close to 30 and beyond 30 that have gone on to be consistent contenders, but I can't think of any that are built in by this rising notion on ES, that YOUTH YOUTH YOUTH is the only way to win.

[SkinsHokieFan]

What teams have built a consistent contender following the plan you seem to be promoting?

I can name countless teams that have acquired FAs close to 30 and beyond 30 that have gone on to be consistent contenders, but I can't think of any that are built in by this rising notion on ES, that YOUTH YOUTH YOUTH is the only way to win.

What team has brought in a big free agent class and gone on to win a Superbowl? Maybe the 2002 Bucs? But they had a core of guys they drafted

The "youth" movement method is far more proven then signing the big class in FA.

Detroit is light years ahead of us in talent now. Where has their FA class been?

[jflow78]

You get a good young core in here and then add in guys like London to fill in holes. We don't do step 1

I believe that to a point, but if you don't have good leaders to help these guys become GREAT workers and football students, then you're left with a bunch of 21 year old millionaires who may be more interested in being payed than winning, which has been another one of our big issues in the last 10 years. I don't see signing a guy like London as the mistake that's held us back. I see signing guys like AH, Portis, and the multitude of other guys we've signed with character/work ethic issues as the biggest problem. Not to say I like us going and getting 30+ y/o FAs either, but signing a handful of character guys (Atogwe being one of those) I don't see as a problem.

I think, mostly we agree. I just don't think it's wrong for us to sign a couple FAs this season, particularly if they fit the system, they're young, and they have a good work eithic (some of whom our coaches have even worked with previously, like Ryan Harris if he's cut).

[Califan007 The Constipated]

What teams have built a consistent contender following the plan you seem to be promoting?

I can name countless teams that have acquired FAs close to 30 and beyond 30 that have gone on to be consistent contenders, but I can't think of any that are built in by this rising notion on ES, that YOUTH YOUTH YOUTH is the only way to win.

I think it's something like Post Traumatic Stress Disorder lol...people who have been through hell fighting in a war come home, and they believe every backfire from a car is a gunshot by the enemy, to the point that walking outside is seen as dangerous. Around these parts, some Skins fans and ES members have lived through the hellish years of Vinny Ceratto and Snyder's blank-check philosophy towards free agency, that they think any noise they hear that sounds like Redskins One firing up makes them think they're back in combat being shot at by player agents.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

The Dallas dynasty of the '90's was overhauled with youth and mid-twenties experience in the main.

Hail.

[SkinsHokieFan]

My point is, every year people will inevitably believe we can wait to draft a QB until next season because there's going to be SOME guy that has the potential to be better than the guys currently in the draft (too bad that guy won't live up to the potential either, and so the cycle continues). I think THAT is the reason we've been in this situation more than any other, we continuously fail to draft necessity parts because we see the guy that looks "flashy" as a justifiable pick because, "well we need (OL/DL/QB) but next year's group is better". Past Luck, I don't believe any of the QBs next season have any more potential or talent than the guys taken in the last 3 drafts, but that's just my opinion.

I am 100 percent agreeing with you here. I felt we needed to do anything possible to get Bradford back in 2010, but the price was too high.

I really am on the Luck or bust bandwagon. But there is a long ways to go till next year and Barkley or Jones may prove themselves to also be potential franchise changers.

I am convinced that Andrew Luck turns us into a contender for the next decade, which is why I hope everything is done to make sure we are in position to draft him. That primarily includes fielding a very young roster in 2011 with John Beck at QB and showing restraint in the FA market

[Califan007 The Constipated]

The Dallas dynasty of the '90's was overhauled with youth and mid-twenties experience in the main.

Hail.

Between 1991-1992, the Cowboys had 5 draft picks in the first round lol...If you have a plan that will get us five 1st round draft picks in two years, I'm all ears.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Between 1991-1992, the Cowboys had 5 draft picks in the first round lol...If you have a plan that will get us five 1st round draft picks in two years, I'm all ears.

Hey man, he asked for an example.

How that example was achieved is irrelevant, lol.

Hail.

[jflow78]

These are the ages of Detroit's FA signings, at the time of their signing.

DETROIT LIONS:

2009 Signed Grady Jackson (36), DT, and Phillip Buchanon (28), CB; Bryant Johnson (28), WR; Eric King (27), CB; and Maurice Morris (29), RB.

2010 Signed Kyle Vanden Bosch (31), DE, Corey Williams (29), DT, Nate Burleson(28), WR, Bobby Carpenter(26), OLB.

I just think Detroit has been smarter about their FA signings than we have in the past, but it's apparent that the guys they signed were brought in to start, since most of them ARE starting.

[SkinsHokieFan]

The Packers are a very young team and deep. Thats why they could withstand so many injuries and win a Superbowl.

Can anyone point to me the big FA classes the Packers brought in over the past 5 years?

Or the Steelers?

[HailGreen28]

Last season we made a big signing with McNabb. This offseason we made a big signing with Atogwe.

Funny, I haven't heard of the Packers, Steelers, Pats, or Eagles making any big signings like we have.

And our fanbase wants us to take our 45 mil, and shop for thirty-something FAs like it's 1999-2000 all over again. That turned out SO well for us back then.

This thread ought to stickied. Kudos to GHH creating it.

[Mahons21]

What team has brought in a big free agent class and gone on to win a Superbowl? Maybe the 2002 Bucs? But they had a core of guys they drafted

Who said anything about a big FA class?

The "youth" movement method is far more proven then signing the big class in FA.

Again why are you signing a big class? FA has to be mixed with drafting. Too many on here have coupled the last 10 years of mediocrity with FA, when it had a lot more to do with trades then FA. The skins were mediocre because they had no depth, they had one of the better starting line-ups in the NFL numerous seasons but as soon as a starter or two went down they were F'd. The skins had no depth because they traded away all their draft picks, so when a big name FA got injured there was no one in their place to step up.

Detroit is light years ahead of us in talent now. Where has their FA class been?

Ya and it only took them how many top 5 draft picks to get there? If we pick in the top 5, 3 times in the next 3-5 years I'm sure we'll have talent too.

---------- Post added July-10th-2011 at 08:29 PM ----------

Hey man, he asked for an example.

How that example was achieved is irrelevant, lol.

Hail.

So we're at 1 in the history of the NFL, and it was completely out of the ordinary.

---------- Post added July-10th-2011 at 08:31 PM ----------

Funny, I haven't heard of the Packers, Steelers, Pats, or Eagles making any big signings like we have.

Packers- Charles Woodson was a huge signing

Eagles- Assante Samuel huge signing/Also reportedly very interested in Asomugha

Pats- Randy Moss huge signing

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Last season we made a big signing with McNabb. This offseason we made a big signing with Atogwe.

Funny, I haven't heard of the Packers, Steelers, Pats, or Eagles making any big signings like we have.

Pats signed Randy Moss, remember? They also signed Junior Seau.

Eagles signed Asante Samuel and Jason Peters.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Pats signed Randy Moss, remember? They also signed Junior Seau.

Eagles signed Asanta Samuel and Jason Peters.

Difference being, in both cases those teams were already built

We aren't nearly at that point yet

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Hey man, he asked for an example.

How that example was achieved is irrelevant, lol.

Hail.

Get this...in that same time period they had 31 draft picks in the top 4 rounds!!!...

---------- Post added July-10th-2011 at 05:35 PM ----------

Difference being, in both cases those teams were already built

We aren't nearly at that point yet

but the point being made was this:

"Funny, I haven't heard of the Packers, Steelers, Pats, or Eagles making any big signings like we have."

Obviously they HAVE made some "big" signings of vet players.

[Mahons21]

Difference being, in both cases those teams were already built

We aren't nearly at that point yet

They signed Rodney Harrison before they won a single superbowl, he was 30 at the time.

I'm sure the Eagles signed FA starters in their building days as well, I just don't have the memory for it.

[jflow78]

Pats signed Randy Moss, remember? They also signed Junior Seau.

Eagles signed Asanta Samuel and Jason Peters.

Yeah, pretty much anyone who wants to argue against signing a big FA class should NEVER bring up the Pats. They're one of the worst examples of it, especially in recent years.

The Pats signs TONS of big name FAs. Nearly every great RB, LBer , and WR they've had have been big name FAs. They've also signed several CBs the last few years to start.

The Eagles are also not shy of signing big name FAs, but they're usually smart signings, not generally the big spending stuff.

The only team I can really think of that nearly stays hands off of FA except for one or two signings a year are the Packers, and I LOVE how their team is built, but having a GM like Ted Thompson is extremely rare. If we had him, then I'd be all for not signing any FAs but one or two a year. Most other teams are going to have to add players to their team, I just hope we do it with character guys who can help prepare the younger players and get our team into a regular turnover system where younger players ARE capable of taking over at certain spots.

It's a lot harder to do that when you've got whole squads (like the OL or WR, though I think our only FA signing at WR should be resigning Moss, if we do that) where you literally don't have anyone capable of playing some positions. I think that's the ONLY reason Rabach still has a job.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Last years Packers with an average age of 25 is another great recent example as noted above. A team that's set up to dominate for the long haul too. Go figure.

Hail.

[KCClybun]

I really laugh at people who say "I DON''T CARE IF WE GO 0-16 NEXT SEASON, AS LONG AS OUR YOUNG PLAYERS PLAY!"

Bull. Complete and utter bull. I've lurked around here for a while now, and the board friggin' explodes everytime the team loses. This fanbase--COLLECTIVELY, between the eternally optimistic and the painfully pessimistic--will never accept that kind of season, in the name of "getting some younger players some time."

This fanbase works in extremes. The best teams have balance. Balance. But it seems as though it's always "Let's go all in on these free agents!" or "let's never spend money on a free agent ever again!" with us. It's friggin' maddening.

Love it or hate it, there is a happy medium. There is a way to get young players on the field, while adding veteran free agents at key positions. Because the problem is, we drafted 12 guys--if we come out with 6 players who can contribute in some fashion, we will be EXTREMELY lucky.

Some guys can't play. Period.

Kevin Barnes earned his way onto the field. Period. He started on the practice squad, worked his ass off, and when his opportunity came, while Phillip Buchanon was sucking it up in the first Giants game, Barnes came in, and played well, and he caught Haslett's eye.

Kareem Moore sucked. Hard. He was hurt, sure, but still, he sucked. All season he sucked. A converted corner somehow played better than him. He was kind of giving the free safety spot by the nature of being drafted and being the only free safety, and he was never challenged for his spot, and he sucked Andre the Giant's big toe all friggin' season.

Free safety was a hole we needed to fill. Barnes worked better at corner (even though he started bulking up to play safety). The draft SUCKED for drafting any defensive backs, but safeties especially. DeJon Gomes has said he hasn't played pure free safety his entire time at Nebraska. (But we should stop trying to fit square pegs in round holes, right?).

So what are you supposed to do? You have one guy who, if push comes to shove, you need to be your second corner in Barnes. You have a guy you like in the draft, but he really is more a nickel corner than a pure free safety. You've got a guy who can't play on your roster...so, are ya just supposed to say "eff it!".

The whole point of being a general manager and being a head coach is to make your football team better. They went out, found a guy who fits in the defense, still has some solid years of playing time ahead of him, doesn't have a history of major injuries or attitude problems, and they gave him a fair contract for his age and his production. Meanwhile, they can maybe push Kareem Moore to not suck as a back-up and develop DeJon Gomes.

The goal should be to draft well and draft depth, and allow your young players to compete for playing time. You can add free agents that are healthy and fit in the scheme, and you can pay them to their talent and their age. Don't let your young guys just sit on the bench or on the practice squad; rotate them in, give them opportunities to play and learn on the field next to the veterans. That way, when a veteran goes down and moves on or whatever, you've got a polished guy who can take his spot without him being overwhelmed and having to adjust on the fly.

The problem in the past hasn't been adding free agents; it's been adding people who's primes were well past them, signing to disgustingly written, overpaying contracts, and then hoping for the best.

[The Tris]

London Fletcher was 30 when we signed him. How has he worked out for us?

I love when London Fletcher is trotted out as the gold standard of FA signings, as if he is just your average run of the mill player.

What teams have built a consistent contender following the plan you seem to be promoting?

I can name countless teams that have acquired FAs close to 30 and beyond 30 that have gone on to be consistent contenders, but I can't think of any that are built in by this rising notion on ES, that YOUTH YOUTH YOUTH is the only way to win.

The Ram and Bucs are the two most recent examples, both being among the 5 youngest teams in the NFL.

They have sign veteran FAs, but only at positions where they were completely absent of young talent.

The Falcons and Lions have also followed this path, signing just one "big FA" per offseason. We are talking about signing somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 vet FAs to be immediate starters.

We must use FA. But with restraint we have not ever seen from this team (and success that neither Mike Shanahan or Bruce Allen have ever had with FA acquisitions).

Between 1991-1992, the Cowboys had 5 draft picks in the first round lol...If you have a plan that will get us five 1st round draft picks in two years, I'm all ears.

They got those picks by trading their best player. Something we should have done last year with the likes of Cooley, Carter, and others.

Instead, we decided to win now.

Ya know, cuz this time, it's different.

---------- Post added July-10th-2011 at 08:44 PM ----------

Pats signed Randy Moss, remember? They also signed Junior Seau.

Eagles signed Asante Samuel and Jason Peters.

Oh jesus man, they signed those players when they were playoff teams shooting for a super bowl.

You are smart enough to know the differences between these teams and us, and how completely different the team building strategies should be.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Too many on here have coupled the last 10 years of mediocrity with FA, when it had a lot more to do with trades then FA. The skins were mediocre because they had no depth, they had one of the better starting line-ups in the NFL numerous seasons but as soon as a starter or two went down they were F'd. The skins had no depth because they traded away all their draft picks...

That right there is the difference between teams like the Pats and Eagles and teams like the Redskins: number of draft picks they have each year.

We didn't mortgage the future by signing free agents above 29 years old...we didn't mortgage the future by giving large signing bonuses to free agents...we mortgaged the future by trading away draft picks year after year. Teams like the Pats and Eagles most definitely look toward free agency to help fill holes...I mean, geez, every stinkin' team in the NFL does that lol ...The good teams do it smartly. And doing it smartly does not mean making a template for players to fit into..."Must be under 29 years of age, not be from the current Super Bowl-winning team, must have played every single game over the last 3 1/2 seasons..."

Can you imagine how the Redskins would look if we had 12 draft picks next year and in 2013?...can you imagine Cullen Jenkins and OJ Atogwe 2 years from now surrounded by nothing but 24-25 year olds?

[McD5]

Great thread GHH. Thanks for making it.

They got those picks by trading their best player. Something we should have done last year with the likes of Cooley, Carter, and others.

Instead, we decided to win now.

Ya know, cuz this time, it's different.

---------- Post added July-10th-2011 at 08:44 PM ----------

And this. I just wish we had the intelligence necessary in this FO to have traded away Portis 3 years ago. Then boneheads act surprised when he's injured most of the season, and worthless. Let's hold onto him until we can't get a thing for him! Great idea!

I still see some room temperature iqs suggesting that they'd like to see Portis return this season.

Portis gone 3 years ago, Cooley gone a year or two ago, and Moss too.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I can imagine Cullen Jenkins having played a handful of games each of those two years and most calling for him now asking "just WTF did we sign a 30 year old injury prone chump to a big contract" if that helps Cali man.

Hail.