NY Times: Bin Laden’s Death Likely to Deepen Suspicions of Pakistan

[JMS]

OK, I'm back from lunch. And ESPN is covering the death of Ossama. (Among other things, they're showing a baseball game in Philly where they made the announcement.)

I'm thinking that this kind of reaction is not only classless. (To me, celebrating any death is classless, even when it's deserved.) It's also not in our best interests.

I think it's a safe bet that all kinds of media "over there" are running non-stop pictures of Americans celebrating Ossama's death. (And after only 10 years of trying, too!) And, granted, I may be wrong (first time for everything), but I suspect that such images not only make the US look like, well, like a bunch of Philly fans, but it's also giving Ossama more TV time as the guy who pissed off the mighty USA, and got away with it for a decade.

Part of me agrees with you... but given the fact that this was the greatest mass murder in US history. I think we should indulge a little bit. Also I think it would have been much worse if we brought him in for a trial and gave him a cell next to Ted Kasinsky for the rest of his life.

I have my reservations but overall Bin Laudin merits such treatment.

[Thiebear]

To say Pakistan is not responsible?

He was living in a house the size of a city block next to the military academy in a community full of retired officers.

just outside the capital due to the treatment he needed. The most recognizable man in the world?

[Larry]

To say Pakistan is not responsible?

He was living in a house the size of a city block next to the military academy in a community full of retired officers.

just outside the capital due to the treatment he needed. The most recognizable man in the world?

Does that prove that the government (and the people) are responsible? Or does it prove that they aren't in charge?

(Honest question. One which I'll freely admit I don't know enough to even have an opinion.)

[JMS]

Does that prove that the government (and the people) are responsible? Or does it prove that they aren't in charge?

(Honest question. One which I'll freely admit I don't know enough to even have an opinion.)

Well I think it proves that Bin Laudin was not exacly shy or living in a cave in order to conceal himself from Pakistani Intelligence...

It's most damaging I think that the US didn't even speak to the Pakistani's until the operation was over. That's the big F-U is you ask my.. If that term can be applied to someone you are giving a billion a year too.

[zoony]

I think when people try to logically understand Pakistan, they go into convulsions because its the most screwed up nation/constution in the world.

You first gotta understand the Pakistani mentality and psyche before even attempting to logically understand the country. We are the most ****ed up people int he world

I don't necessarily think that's true. It's an enormous country with an enormous population. And no oil. Millions upon millions of poor with a western-educated and western-friendly upper crust. And a military/intelligence service that plays both sides.

What did I get wrong?

[twa]

For Larry

http://www.outsidethewire.com/blog/afghanistan/the-helmund-view.html

Written by JD Johannes

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The Marines and Brits stationed here barely shrug at the news about Bin Laden. His lividity is of little matter to the situation in Helmund province, Afghanistan.

Are they happy about the news? Sure. Satisfied justice was finally served? Yes.

But his death changes nothing here and will change very little, if anything on the ground throughout Afghanistan.

Al Qaida has long since become an organization with no need for a leader--even a symbolic one. In the canal country of the Helmund river, the opium poppies provide more revenue to fuel the Taliban and Al Qaida than Bin Laden's long since spent millions and fund raising. Opium sloshes billions of dollars around Afghanistan, Pakistan and the Emirates.

The Marines and Brits know this, which is why the news, while welcome and gratifying, is not celebrated with cheers.

In my own opinion, killing bin Laden does little more than provide a specious pre-text for a premature withdrawal of NATO/US forces from Afghanistan. I remember clearly when Zarqawi was killed in Iraq. The insurgency kept going for 3 more years. It is not a man we are fighting, it is an idea.

[Larry]

Gee, maybe we should . . . end the War on Drugs?

[twa]

Gee, maybe we should . . . end the War on Drugs?

Maybe,but then the easy money becomes kidnapping/extortion or some other flavor.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/161064/bin-laden-is-dead-meet-the-rest-of-qaeda/

Osama bin Laden, killed on Sunday, is survived by high-ranking leaders and supporters of his al Qaeda militant movement.

Here are profiles of the top 10 at large, according to media and Western intelligence.

[bird_1972]

But his death changes nothing here and will change very little, if anything on the ground throughout Afghanistan.

Al Qaida has long since become an organization with no need for a leader--even a symbolic one. In the canal country of the Helmund river, the opium poppies provide more revenue to fuel the Taliban and Al Qaida than Bin Laden's long since spent millions and fund raising. Opium sloshes billions of dollars around Afghanistan, Pakistan and the Emirates.

I was thinking about this very thing last night as I heard the news. As happy as I am for OBL's death, I feel like it doesn't do much to change Al-Qaida and it's operation/funding sources.

In fact, the Arab Spring may actually be a more effective deterrent for future growth of terrorist orgs like Al-Qaida than any military operation could ever be.

[twa]

In fact, the Arab Spring may actually be a more effective deterrent for future growth of terrorist orgs like Al-Qaida than any military operation could ever be.

I hope so....the people are where the change must take place

[Larry]

In fact, the Arab Spring may actually be a more effective deterrent for future growth of terrorist orgs like Al-Qaida than any military operation could ever be.

Dunno. If they can't even win a fight against Khaddafi, I don't see Iran and Syria getting scared. Let alone Pakistan.

[JMS]

I was thinking about this very thing last night as I heard the news. As happy as I am for OBL's death, I feel like it doesn't do much to change Al-Qaida and it's operation/funding sources.

In fact, the Arab Spring may actually be a more effective deterrent for future growth of terrorist orgs like Al-Qaida than any military operation could ever be.

I agree with that. The peaceful protesters are in the process of rewriting the map in the middle east uing non violence much more sucessfully than terrorism ever achieved.

[Chump Bailey]

You know, I'm not sure this action would have occurred were Bush in office. Seriously, the Delta Force Commander in charge of killing Bin Laden during the initial Afghanistan operation was very frustrated with Bush's appeasement of Pakistan at the time. They wanted to prevent a possible escape route into Pakistan from Tora Bora but were denied by then President Bush because he felt it would have resulted in a lack of 'cooperation' on their part in the war. It would have involved placing commando's on Pakistan soil. This was a ballsy move by President Obama and I'm glad he pulled the trigger.

[CounterTrey]

Osama bin Laden dead: Finger of suspicion at Pakistan military for protecting bin Laden

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/8142104.cms?prtpage=1

My father and I and most of our family and connection in India have been saying this for the last 10 years...Finally someone in the US woke up to what everyone has been telling them..Don't ****ing trust the pakistani's...they will always give you a little carrot (Turn in some terrorists) and let the big one get away whenever they needed money from us....But keep pumping billions in them..now you know where its going.

[PeterMP]

Part of me agrees with you... but given the fact that this was the greatest mass murder in US history. I think we should indulge a little bit. Also I think it would have been much worse if we brought him in for a trial and gave him a cell next to Ted Kasinsky for the rest of his life.

I have my reservations but overall Bin Laudin merits such treatment.

To me this is like the saying about scoring a TD. Act like you've been there before, even if you haven't.

[JMS]

To me this is like the saying about scoring a TD. Act like you've been there before, even if you haven't.

Pete, nobody has been here before... I don't have to tell you Bin Laudin killed more folks than the Japanese at Perl Harbor on the continental US. We have no parallel for this. Our response to that attack, as fractured and uncoordinated as it was cost the nation 3 trillion dollars likely when all is said and done.

I say we earned a little celebration. And he earned his treatement too. I get it that nobody wants to "offend" moslems. My point is the Moslems offended by killing such a mass murderer shooting weapons at our guys and hiding behind his family; chances are they were already offended by us anyway... I say... good buy, so long, the world won't miss you. Next bright guy to tackle such a feet let's hope we have a more focused and efficient response that will put him in the ground/water that much sooner.

I would like to have seen a trial. I would like to have put him in jail. But I'm ok with this too. Also I'm thiking Obama in prison would be an even greater magnate for attacks than him in the soup. So it kind of worked out well.

The only negative is the conspiracy folks. All the folks who today think 9/11 didn't occur or it was really a government operation. Nothing like a good trial to document what really happenned and promote the truth... The wing nuts of today might be the main stream folks 10-20 years from now. That was Truman's worry in WWII. Anyway, I'm still alright with it.

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

I agree with this. Zawahiri was the operational brains of the original AlQueda. He's definitely next on the list.

Where in Pakistan is Zawahiri? That's the question.

---------- Post added May-2nd-2011 at 03:00 PM ----------

Pakistan is the luckiest country in the world... if it wasn't on the brink of collapse we would have gone GW Bush all over them. Imagine what would have happened to Iran if OBL ended up getting killed while living in a affluent neighborhood of Revolutionary Guard officers... near a military base...

What Bush said in Nov 2001:

BUSH: We fight the terrorists and we fight all of those who give them aid. America has a message for the nations of the world: If you harbor terrorists, you are terrorists. If you train or arm a terrorist, you are a terrorist. If you feed a terrorist or fund a terrorist, you're a terrorist, and you will be held accountable by the United States and our friends.

[Hubbs]

OK, I'm back from lunch. And ESPN is covering the death of Ossama. (Among other things, they're showing a baseball game in Philly where they made the announcement.)

I'm thinking that this kind of reaction is not only classless. (To me, celebrating any death is classless, even when it's deserved.) It's also not in our best interests.

I think it's a safe bet that all kinds of media "over there" are running non-stop pictures of Americans celebrating Ossama's death. (And after only 10 years of trying, too!) And, granted, I may be wrong (first time for everything), but I suspect that such images not only make the US look like, well, like a bunch of Philly fans, but it's also giving Ossama more TV time as the guy who pissed off the mighty USA, and got away with it for a decade.

I had this thought, too. And, honestly, it has me worried. Not that there's really anything I could recommend as a solution. Americans should be able to celebrate the fact that we killed the man who was, if not the true orchestrator behind 9/11, at least played a big role and was the face of the terrorist network that pulled off the attack. And it's not like we should feel that we have to censor ourselves out of fear of terrorism. That, to me, would be a real sign that terrorism is working.

But that doesn't mean that we can prevent the images from sparking anger amongst those around the world who were sympathetic towards bin Laden. So I guess the best option is to be happy that Osama is dead, but also to be extra-vigilant in trying to sniff out potential retaliation.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

You know, I'm not sure this action would have occurred were Bush in office. Seriously, the Delta Force Commander in charge of killing Bin Laden during the initial Afghanistan operation was very frustrated with Bush's appeasement of Pakistan at the time. They wanted to prevent a possible escape route into Pakistan from Tora Bora but were denied by then President Bush because he felt it would have resulted in a lack of 'cooperation' on their part in the war. It would have involved placing commando's on Pakistan soil. This was a ballsy move by President Obama and I'm glad he pulled the trigger.

The point is valid and I'm not trying to call you out, but "appeasement" is a loaded word, and I don't think we should say that's how Bush treated Pakistan.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I think it's a safe bet that all kinds of media "over there" are running non-stop pictures of Americans celebrating Ossama's death. (And after only 10 years of trying, too!) And, granted, I may be wrong (first time for everything), but I suspect that such images not only make the US look like, well, like a bunch of Philly fans, but it's also giving Ossama more TV time as the guy who pissed off the mighty USA, and got away with it for a decade.

I agree. I saw the images this morning of the people celebrating at ground zero and near the White House. Believe me, my initial reaction was to be happy and elated. But the images of people massed together in the streets celebrating a death looked eerily similar to what we witnessed in the days following 9/11. I realize that the intentions are different, but the PERCEPTION could easily be spun against us that we're no better than they are. Good post.

[CounterTrey]

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/05/02/osama_bin_who?page=0,0

10 years of Osama Bin WHO by Pakistan - Time to keep tightening the screws on pakistan.

[Thiebear]

Does that prove that the government (and the people) are responsible? Or does it prove that they aren't in charge?

(Honest question. One which I'll freely admit I don't know enough to even have an opinion.)

If they are not in charge who is? And then that would be the main culprit in harboring the #1 terrorist worldwide.

If the next 5 of 10 capture/kills are in Pakistan with their help, it would go a long ways..

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

If they are not in charge who is? And then that would be the main culprit in harboring the #1 terrorist worldwide.

If the next 5 of 10 capture/kills are in Pakistan with their help, it would go a long ways..

Again, I'm no expert on Pakistan, but I do read. The way I understand things is that there is a military and a government in Pakistan but both essentially have their own chain of commands and centers of power. It's possible that the military knew where Bin Laden was but that the government did not. (It does not seem likely that the reverse is true). It also seems to depend on the month which body has more power. I'm not sure there is another country in the world that runs quite like this.

[aREDSKIN]

Obviously Pakistan has a long history harboring terrorists.

NEW DELHI: Osama bin Laden's killing "deep inside Pakistan" has again authenticated Pakistan's status as a terror safe haven. Pakistan is known to protect leaders of anti-India groups like LeT and JeM but Osama's death, following a series of arrest of top al-Qaida leaders in Pakistan, confirms that even the leading targets of the "war on terror" found safe hideouts in the country.

The list of al-Qaida leaders held in Pakistan includes names like Abu Zubaydah, Ramzi bin Al Shibh and Khalid Sheikh Mohammad. Like Osama, these terrorists were not hiding in tribal areas but in urban centres.

Add to these the arrests of Umar Patek, one of the leaders of bomb attacks on foreign tourists in Bali, from Abbottabad, that of Mullah Baradar, one of the senior leaders of Taliban, from Karachi and the fact that the entire Taliban brass is holed up in Quetta, and it becomes clear why Pakistan is seen as the headquarters of Jihad Inc.

Once No.3 in the al-Qaida hierarchy and its main recruiter, Zubaydah was arrested from a house in Faisalabad where he would move around dressed in a burqa. Seven months later, one of the main 9/11 accused, Ramzi bin Al Shibh, was traced to Karachi where he was held after a gun fight. Next year, in what was probably the most important arrest made by the US authorities in the war against terrorism, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, a key 9/11 planner, was arrested from a house in a posh Rawalpindi colony. He was sharing the house with the leader of a religious party when he was nabbed.

One top Taliban leader who indeed was hiding in a tribal area was Mustafa Abu Al Yazid. He was said to be next only to Osama and Ayman Al Zawahiri when he was killed by a US drone in Pakistan's North Waziristan tribal area last year.

The presence of hardcore terrorists is facilitated by the growing appeal of fundamentalism but also raises doubts about Islamabad's intention.

Security expert Brahma Chellaney said the spotlight will inevitably turn now on Pakistan, the world's main sanctuary for transnational terrorists. "The fact that Bin Laden's hideout was located not in the mountains of Waziristan but in the military town of Abbottabad only underscores the major protection he must have received from the ISI to help him elude the US dragnet for nearly a decade," he said.

"The breakthrough to hunt him down came only after the US deployed a number of CIA operatives, Special Operations forces and contractors deep inside Pakistan without the knowledge of the Pakistani military," he added. Bin Laden's most likely successor is Ayman Al Zawahiri who is said to be hiding somewhere on the Afghanistan-Pakistan border.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Paks-status-as-safe-house-for-jihadis-confirmed/articleshow/8147952.cms

[Thiebear]

^^^^^^^^^

IT seems the more leaders that get caught there the worse it sounds.

The Howard Stern lookalike needing medical care couldn't have worn a burka.