NY Times: Bin Laden’s Death Likely to Deepen Suspicions of Pakistan

[JMS]

I thought they were synonmous with Alqaeda because they are willing to kill innocent women and children because UBL was caught/killed.

AND: Their spokesman said there would be more. 99.97% of alqaeda had nothing to do ith 9/11.

I put Pakistan leadership in the same boat as the Taliban at this point until shown otherwise.

They aren't really in the same boat with AQ... We've been conducting peace talks with the Taliban, and trying to draw them into Afghanistan elections. I don't see us as being nearly as tollerant of Al Quada which is after all an international terrorist organization bent on killing our citizens.

The Taliban is made up of a bunch of guys like Mullah Olmar who have never been more than 20 miles away from their villages. I think it helps to keep that in mind no matter what the press spokesman say...

We treat them alike, for now, but that's negotiable depending upon their future conduct.

Al Quada I don't think we are negotiating with, nor are any of our allies.

[Larry]

Just some thoughts.

I see a lot of people wanting to blame Pakistan for the fact that Ossama was in their country.

I keep remembering a piece of moral philosophy that has stuck in my mind ever since I read it, as a teenager, in Heinlein's Starship Troopers. (That book has a lot more in it that just rayguns and shoot-em-up.)

The Universe consists of paired dualities. All forces in the Universe exist in the form of offsetting pairs. For every force in any system, there is always an equal and opposite force.

The opposing force to power, is responsibility. It is the height of insanity to even attempt to give someone power, and claim they have no responsibility. And equally insane to attempt to assign responsibility to someone who lacks power.

Now, when I see people attempting to assign responsibility to the government (or the people) of Pakistan, I have to wonder: Does the government of Pakistan actually have enough power, to deserve the responsibility that we're trying to pin on them?

(I find myself asking the same question, when people are assigning responsibility to the government or people of Palestine.)

Should we be assigning responsibility to the government of Pakistan? Or attempting to give them more power?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Mardi,

I think you hit one of my biggest reservations on the head. I'm just not sure killing him accomplished much in terms of our safety. Was he still in charge, and what does "in charge" mean?

I thought the same thing driving to work this morning. Again, for the instinctive side of me, I was happy and satisfied to hear he died. However, I'm wondering how much role he really played. Either way, it's not a bad thing that he's roasting right now, I just wonder if this was more symbolic than strategic.

[JMS]

If you walk away from Pakistan' date=' you create a vacuum that is filled by extremists, who in one year can kill tens of millions of Indians and put nuclear weapons in the hands of terrorists.

It's a far more dangerous situation.[/quote']

Yeah if we walk away from Pakistan extreamists will take over. Extreamists who will sell nukes to our worst enemies abroad, extreamists who will use terrorism as an instrument of their foreign policy, and extreamists who will murder their political rivals domestically and abroad...

Wait, those are the guys we are supporting today in Pakistan.

[mardi gras skin]

From 10,000 feet, it probably looks almost identical in fact. After all, even the people celebrating that tragic day in 2001 had to believe they were celebrating for a good reason, right? In their opinion, the battle being brought to the US was a good thing and was retribution for SOMETHING.

I think you're exactly right. It almost just becomes a game. My team scored a point so we'll cheer. Now their team is more determined to score a point and when they do they'll cheer. Its morbid.

I think killing him needed to be done. Good. Its done. But there's not really anything to be excited about.

If, somehow, this leads to a greater security or peace and a withdrawal of troops and less killing, I will go nuts celebrating. But so far, I don't feel exuberant.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I think you're exactly right. It almost just becomes a game. My team scored a point so we'll cheer. Now their team is more determined to score a point and when they do they'll cheer. Its morbid.

I think killing him needed to be done. Good. Its done. But there's not really anything to be excited about.

If, somehow, this leads to a greater security or peace and a withdrawal of troops and less killing, I will go nuts celebrating. But so far, I don't feel exuberant.

That's how I feel as well.

One aspect of this that clearly distinguishes between us and terrorists is the respect showed after his death. Our armed forces respected the beliefs of his (and his followers') religion and allowed him to be buried at sea within 24 hours. I think that is a stark contrast to the ceremonial things we've seen in the other direction. And, it reinforces the notion that we, as a nation, are "above" some of this BS.

[HailGreen28]

Watch who celebrates his life and honors trash

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/05/02/hamas-leader-condemns-killing-usama-bin-laden/

Seriously. Why are we still giving Palestinian organizations so much aid? They've made their choice time and time again, especially Gaza.

Like Bang said, all we got on our hands after trying to help them, is bite-marks.

[SkinsHokieFan]

http://eu.techcrunch.com/2011/05/02/heres-the-guy-who-unwittingly-live-tweeted-the-raid-on-bin-laden/

A few things and I really hate to say it today because I am all sorts of excited. But I simply have trouble buying the official story

1) This is in a military town filled with retired military officers

2) Within spitting distance are nuke facilities, the PAF (Pakistan Air Force) HQ, the Pakistan Army's version of Westpoint is 1 km, ISI training grounds are nearby. No way does the US conduct this type of operation without the Pakistani army knowing about it

3) Reports were of a Pakistani helicopter being down 6 hours before the news broke

http://www.dawn.com/2011/05/02/copter-crashes-on-kakul-road-monitoring-desk.html

4) The entire area was cordoned off. This wasn't US personell cordoning off an area in a town in Pakistan

There are too many things I am hearing and reading to buy the official story we have gotten. I am convinced that the Pakistani's a) knew where he was and finally made the decision to turn him over due to the storm around the entire ME. At that point they were fully engaged with the operation.

[Prosperity]

woot, this is awesome

[KDawg]

but I thought the footage from ground zero and near the White House today looked similar to the footage they showed of some Muslims celebrating the events of 9/11. From 10,000 feet, it probably looks almost identical in fact. After all, even the people celebrating that tragic day in 2001 had to believe they were celebrating for a good reason, right? In their opinion, the battle being brought to the US was a good thing and was retribution for SOMETHING.

I don't know...maybe that doesn't make any sense and I'm certainly very satisfied with the idea that OBL is dead and burning in Hell. I guess I just would think that it would be a more somber, reflective moment in our country since it, in a lot of ways, closes a decade-long life-altering chapter in our history.

Agreed. 100%. To a T.

[Prosperity]

Pakistan is the luckiest country in the world... if it wasn't on the brink of collapse we would have gone GW Bush all over them. Imagine what would have happened to Iran if OBL ended up getting killed while living in a affluent neighborhood of Revolutionary Guard officers... near a military base...

[DeaconTheVillain]

The house he was at

[JMS]

4) The entire area was cordoned off. This wasn't US personell cordoning off an area in a town in Pakistan

There are too many things I am hearing and reading to buy the official story we have gotten. I am convinced that the Pakistani's a) knew where he was and finally made the decision to turn him over due to the storm around the entire ME. At that point they were fully engaged with the operation.

Well the "official story" confirms half of your theory. Pakistani intelligence were involved with finding him and handing him over. A Pakistani embassy spokesman confirmed that on CNN last night before the President spoke. Likewise Obama mentioned that Pakistan was involved with the apprehension.

Now to support you on the rest of your theory.. I personally don't think there is a snowballs chance in hadies that we told Pakistan Osama Bin Laudin was in a house 1 mile outside Pakistan's capital and we're going in to get him. I think their is a 99% chance if we did Osama would have flown the coop long before our people got their. The only way Pakistan knows about that operation is if they brought him to us...

Makes you wonder what we gave up. Pakistan is getting like a billion a year in aid already before this.

---------- Post added May-2nd-2011 at 09:58 AM ----------

Pakistan is the luckiest country in the world... if it wasn't on the brink of collapse we would have gone GW Bush all over them. Imagine what would have happened to Iran if OBL ended up getting killed while living in a affluent neighborhood of Revolutionary Guard officers... near a military base...

Just outside the capital of Pakistan.....

Seriously though Pakistan isn't "lucky".... They are smart. They are very good at telling people what they want to hear and then doing what ever they like.. That's what happenned here... Luck had nothing to do with it... Bush said you are either with us or against us, and Pakistan said WE ARE WITH YOU, THEN... Coarse a few weeks before they were with Al Quada... Then 10 years latter we figured out a motivator to get them to drop a dime on Bin Laudin.

[Larry]

Pakistan is the luckiest country in the world... if it wasn't on the brink of collapse we would have gone GW Bush all over them.

:secret: Nuclear Weapons.

[Stadium-Armory]

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I'm certainly no expert on Pakistan, but the issue there seems to be that while some parts of the government are Pro-American, many other parts are very Pro-Taliban/Al Qaeda. And those two camps can - at times - be sharing the same office.

One of the stories now emerging is that we did not reveal much to Pakistan about this operation because Clinton kept them in the loop in '98 on the attempt to kill Bin Laden, and it was probably a Pakistani official who tipped the bad guy off.

[JMS]

:secret: Nuclear Weapons.

Just about every assertian George Bush made against Iraq which were all false, were true of Pakistan...

• They were / did develop nuclear weapons.
  
• They were exporting them to terrorist states like N. Korea, Iran, and Libyia.
  
• They were supporters of international terrorists.
  
• They did use international terrorism as an instrument of their foreign policy.
  
• They did have operational contact with Al Quada before and after 911.
  
• They did actively and publically support the Taliban and Al Quada.
  

[SkinsHokieFan]

I'm certainly no expert on Pakistan' date=' but the issue there seems to be that while some parts of the government are Pro-American, many other parts are very Pro-Taliban/Al Qaeda. And those two camps can - at times - be sharing the same office.

.[/quote']

I think when people try to logically understand Pakistan, they go into convulsions because its the most screwed up nation/constution in the world.

You first gotta understand the Pakistani mentality and psyche before even attempting to logically understand the country. We are the most ****ed up people int he world

[Destino]

I realize some of you are trying to be practical about the entire situation but I don't think you realize the significance of symbols and leaders. Killing one guy in an organization may not be a big deal to those thinking "another will take his place" but consider that every one of our leaders can be replaced. In fact it's questionable how valuable civilian leader even are to a war effort and yet the reaction to the loss of a President in the US would be massive, right?

The images of Osama's legacy were powerful. The USS Cole with a massive hole blown into the side of it. The Twin Towers reduced to rubble. The Pentagon with a burnt out hole in it. Symbols of American might fractured and broken. He hit us hard and his organization continued to do so but no one could find him. President Bush stated in 2002 "I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority." clearly showing that efforts to kill or capture were frustrating American leaders. American's began to tell themselves he was long dead or that he was in a cave somewhere and no longer a factor. Al Qaeda operatives didn't know where he was but I'd bet they knew he lived on and that he wasn't in a spider hole like Saddam ended up. He was a symbol of divine backing for their suicidal cause. He accomplished what most of us would have thought impossible.

Now the news is different. The images are not those of a wounded American warship or landmark. We are not seeing trains ripped apart and western leaders with heavy hearts. Today we see American's cheering and singing everywhere from baseball games as the news spread to spontaneous white house celebrations. That monster finally met up with his silver bullet. The enemy lost their hero today and their hearts are no doubt heavy. Don't boost their spirits by worrying about retaliation or worrying over the wisdom of killing him over any other alternatives. Smile. Pray. Celebrate. Let the enemy see a determined people enjoying a day that was delayed far too long.

[DeaconTheVillain]

Obama had to admit that Pakistani intelligence helped the US develop the lead that allowed the US to close in on Bin Laden. So the operation was not unilateral, and young candidate Obama was too over-confident. The US story that the Pakistanis were not given prior notice of the operation is contradicted by the Pakistani news channel Geo, which says that Pakistani troops and plainsclothesmen helped cordon off the compound in Abbotabad. CNN is pointing out that US helicopters could not have flown so far into Pakistan from Afghanistan without tripping Pakistani radar. My guess is that the US agreed to shield the government of Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani and President Asaf Ali Zardari from al-Qaeda reprisals by putting out the story that the operation against Bin Laden was solely a US one. And it may be that suspect elements of the Pakistani elite, such as the Inter-Services Intelligence, were kept out the the loop because it was feared they might have ties to Bin Laden and might tip him off.

http://www.juancole.com/2011/05/obama-and-the-end-of-al-qaeda.html

[ACW]

Interesting...

[JMS]

I realize some of you are trying to be practical about the entire situation but I don't think you realize the significance of symbols and leaders. Killing one guy in an organization may not be a big deal to those thinking "another will take his place" but consider that every one of our leaders can be replaced. In fact it's questionable how valuable civilian leader even are to a war effort and yet the reaction to the loss of a President in the US would be massive, right?

I think Osama Bin Laudin was irreplaceable both as a symbol and as a fund raiser. His network reached inside of some of the wealthiest families in the middle east and his charisma and name recognition were without pear for his organization...

[SkinsHokieFan]

http://www.juancole.com/2011/05/obama-and-the-end-of-al-qaeda.html

That should be a "no duh" if people look at all the facts we have been given

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I think when people try to logically understand Pakistan, they go into convulsions because its the most screwed up nation/constution in the world.

You first gotta understand the Pakistani mentality and psyche before even attempting to logically understand the country. We are the most ****ed up people int he world

I think people try to treat it like Turkey or Egypt and follow the typical Islamic World model - Secular military, corrupt oligarchy, deeply religious Street. It seems like in Pakistan, there is a lot more crossover between those groups. Parts of the military seem to be deeply religious while other parts are deeply secular. And it seems like you never really know who has the most power from day to day. It's also unique because of its insane relationship with India. We can handle the Muslim-Isreali issue, but the Pakistan-India relationship is more dangerous and has a few levels that are simply incomprehensible to a Westerner, I feel.

[Larry]

OK, I'm back from lunch. And ESPN is covering the death of Ossama. (Among other things, they're showing a baseball game in Philly where they made the announcement.)

I'm thinking that this kind of reaction is not only classless. (To me, celebrating any death is classless, even when it's deserved.) It's also not in our best interests.

I think it's a safe bet that all kinds of media "over there" are running non-stop pictures of Americans celebrating Ossama's death. (And after only 10 years of trying, too!) And, granted, I may be wrong (first time for everything), but I suspect that such images not only make the US look like, well, like a bunch of Philly fans, but it's also giving Ossama more TV time as the guy who pissed off the mighty USA, and got away with it for a decade.