abcnews: Aidan Elliot, 8, pepper sprayed by Colorado police

[Predicto]

Have you ever personally handled a mentally challenged, in any way, person? Even a kid? They are incredibly strong, and don't know what that means. I don't think he would have caused any harm to the officer, but I DO think its possible that in trying to restrain him, the officer could have hurt the kid, causing this to be an even bigger deal.

Now, we haven't even gotten confirmation that this wasn't just a kid who has trouble reading sitting in his "special needs" class, so none of this might matter at all.

Yes, I have, and anyhow, this is not an "incredibly strong Down's kid." It's just a kid. An 8 year old.

I've handled 8 year olds in a tantrum, and the risk of accidentially hurting the kid is a hell of a lot less than people are making out. Hell, what if you pepperspray him in the face and he dies? Dozens of people have been killed by allergic reaactions to pepper spray.

Sometimes it seems like the Tailgate will defend anything, no matter how ridiculous, as long as they think someone brought it on themselves. Even an 8 year old kid with known emotional problems. :doh:

[Sniffler]

I've handled 8 year olds in a tantrum, and the risk of accidentially hurting the kid is a hell of a lot less than people are making out.

Sometimes it seems like the Tailgate will defend anything, no matter how ridiculous, as long as they think someone brought it on themselves. Even an 8 year old kid with known emotional problems. :doh:

But, from the teacher's perspective, is taking even the smallest risk in such a toxic situation worth possibly losing your career... especially over an eight year old's irrationally violent temper tantrum?

[Beans]

I would have punted the little ****tard like a football. His mother should more than likely be sterilized.

But then again, I'm not a teacher, so my job wouldn't be on the line.

[Predicto]

But, from the teacher's perspective, is taking even the smallest risk in such a toxic situation worth possibly losing your career... especially over an eight year old's irrationally violent temper tantrum?

I can't say for sure what the teachers should have done.

I can say, for sure, that the cop should not have pepper sprayed an 8 year old holding a piece of wood.

---------- Post added April-6th-2011 at 08:21 PM ----------

I would have punted the little ****tard like a football. His mother should more than likely be sterilized.

But then again, I'm not a teacher...

I think that is best for everyone.

[Stadium-Armory]

I would totally own that little kid, even with the samurai sword he was wielding in an apparent angel dust fueled moment of super human rage. No doubt about it.

[Koala]

Not a parent, but I still think you can get a piece of wood from a kid without hurting him/hurting yourself.

Man, thats like the 10th time Ive seen that statement in this thread.

Yes, yes a normal adult or cop probably could subdue an 8yr old without hurting himself or or the child.

Key word is COULD. There's no guarantee, things happen quickly -- the kid falls wrong and he could break his wrist, accidentally stab himself, or stab the cop. Lots of variables there, why take a chance?

Pepper spray was the least violent option for ending the situation quickly. I dont even see how thats an argument.

[Stadium-Armory]

I think its even more likely that something COULD have gone wrong with the pepper spraying route. It didn't, but he could just have easily fallen when blinded by the chemical and stabbed him self in the neck. Or tripped over something and broken his left wrist.

[Teller]

The average 8 year old boy is 3 foot 9 and 56 pounds. Cmon now, people. All of these hypotheticals about what could happen are ridiculous. "What if he had a hatchet? What if he was secretly armed with a grenade launcher? What if you tried to grab his arm and he fell out a 14 story window?!??!?!?!"

If you've seen the video, you know that Aiden is more than a few burgers, and hours of slasher video games beyond that.

And I accidentally broke AND dislocated the elbow of a 19-year old girl, who was simply trying to keep me from getting her hands behind her back to cuff her. MASSIVE injury from a seemingly "easy" thing to do. I think YOU would be surprised at the things that can happen in ANY kind of physical confrontation; intended or not.

[Predicto]

Man, thats like the 10th time Ive seen that statement in this thread.

Yes, yes a normal adult or cop probably could subdue an 8yr old without hurting himself or or the child.

Key word is COULD. There's no guarantee, things happen quickly -- the kid falls wrong and he could break his wrist, accidentally stab himself, or stab the cop. Lots of variables there, why take a chance?

Pepper spray was the least violent option for ending the situation quickly. I dont even see how thats an argument.

Because it isn't accurate. Putting the cruelty factor aside, why would anyone claim that pepper spray is without risk? It isn't. People die from that stuff.

"The Los Angeles Times has reported at least 61 deaths associated with police use of pepper spray since 1990 in the USA"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_spray

So its not especially safe - and its cruel and unnecessary against an 8 year old. Great combo.

[Sticksboi05]

"even threatening teachers and students with a sharp piece of wood he held like a knife." "Lakewood Police Officer Steve Davis said that when they arrived on the scene Aidan told them, "I will kill you mother effers," Davis said."

and this is why he was pepper sprayed. Another option would have been to taze him. Another option would have been to point a gun at him. What was not an option was to allow him to continue to tear up the classroom, and hold everyone hostage until he decides to calm down. Pepper spray is non-lethal, with no lasting effects beyond how long it takes it to wear off. He has a better chance of being hurt from being spanked. Maybe he'll think twice now. I have no doubt that whatever the cops had decided to do other than let him calm down on his own would have been wrong in her (the mother's) eyes.

I didn't know an 8-year old with a piece of wood = David Berkowitz....

---------- Post added April-7th-2011 at 12:02 AM ----------

And no, nothing should "be done" about it. He hopefully learned a lesson.

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

Because it isn't accurate. Putting the cruelty factor aside, why would anyone claim that pepper spray is without risk? It isn't. People die from that stuff.

So its not especially safe - and its cruel and unnecessary against an 8 year old. Great combo.

Lloyd: What if they shot him in the face?

Harry: Yeah, what if they shot me in the face?

Detective: That's a risk we were willing to take

[Predicto]

Pepper spray is absolutely better than a gun in lots of dangerous situations involving scary adults, and of course cops should not put themselves at risk.

But this was an 8 year old with a piece of wood. Comparing that to real risks from grownups is silly.

[Teller]

Pepper spray is absolutely better than a gun in lots of dangerous situations involving scary adults, and of course cops should not put themselves at risk.

But this was an 8 year old with a piece of wood. Comparing that to real risks from grownups is silly.

Keep hammering...kid, kid, kid. And throw in a few more fake statistics about his size. And go the ABC route, "On the surface, Aidan Elliott looks like any kid who likes to play video games." *cue clip of him slashing his opponents to bits in the game* Poor wittle baby. He was just minding his own business, tearing a building apart and threating to "kill mother ****ers." How dare the police come in and find away to defuse the situation and cause no injuries (and prevent who knows how many.) The ****s.

[Koala]

Because it isn't accurate. Putting the cruelty factor aside, why would anyone claim that pepper spray is without risk? It isn't. People die from that stuff.

"The Los Angeles Times has reported at least 61 deaths associated with police use of pepper spray since 1990 in the USA"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_spray

So its not especially safe - and its cruel and unnecessary against an 8 year old. Great combo.

Associated is a dubious word. That could mean almost anyhting. In how many death have been directly attributed to pepper spray use?

Care to venture how many people have been killed/maimed during physical confrontations with police while wielding a knife (or similar object)?

[Teller]

Associated is a dubious word. That could mean almost anyhting. In how many death have been directly attributed to pepper spray use?

Care to venture how many people have been killed/maimed during physical confrontations with police while wielding a knife (or similar object)?

And how many people have been pepper sprayed in the United States in the last 21 years? You'd have to use a whole lot of zeros after the decimal point and before the 1 when expressing the percentage of people that have died from pepper spray use alone.

[Koala]

Pepper spray is absolutely better than a gun in lots of dangerous situations involving scary adults, and of course cops should not put themselves at risk.

But this was an 8 year old with a piece of wood. Comparing that to real risks from grownups is silly.

Youd really have to see the piece of wood to be able to determine if it was dangerous or not. An arrow is just a piece of wood, a spear is just a piece of wood. Have you seen the object or are you just assuming things here?

[Teller]

Youd really have to see the piece of wood to be able to determine if it was dangerous or not. An arrow is just a piece of wood, a spear is just a piece of wood. Have you seen the object or are you just assuming things here?

Like I said earlier, the headlines and stories are amazingly biased in this case. Hell, this ABC headline doesn't mention the weapon, the threats, the ripping trim molding off the wall with one's bare hands....it's all "OMFG! The cops sprayed a kid!" and the assumption is "for no reason."

Some other accounts make it seem like the kid was Heman, weilding his sword in front of Castle Greyskull. As I said before, I'm certain the truth is somewhere in the middle, but I can say from experience, to condemn the cops out of hand in this situation is miles beyond ignorant.

[Commander PK]

Unfortunately I had to work evening shift today, so I wasn't really able to get into the conversation. I read just about every post, and some of you get it and some don't.

It's not about a grown man controlling an 8 year old. It's not about a teacher having "balls" enough to handle the brat himself, instead of calling the cops.I have a 9 year old step-son, that I have no doubt I could easily control in that situation.

The difference is that I won't have a law-suit filed against me by my wife, and my wages garnished for putting hands on him.

We have such a sue-happy culture, that if you are a teacher or cop, every decision or action you take has to be with consideration of "Will I get myself in trouble? How will the "monday morning quarterbacks" view what I have done? It is so easy to sit back and judge, when you aren't faced with having to make decisions like this everyday. Sure, just about any adult in the building could likely have handled this kid without having to pepper spray him, but why should any of them put their neck out to subdue the kid? If one adult (other than the parent) is scratched trying to bring this kid under control, then it wasn't worth it. No doubt they do this, and the kid struggles and is injured in the process, and people are pissed off about that. It's a no win situation. No matter what you do your decisions are going to be judged and criticized by people who have never had to make a similar decision in their life.

If some of you are so upset that we have created a society where a cop is called to handle an 8 year old wielding a stick at school, because the teachers can't put their hands on him, the parents are oblivious and are no help whatsoever, and the cops "best option" is to pepper spray the kid. Thank yourselves and your parents. This is the world we have all collectively created. Congrats

---------- Post added April-7th-2011 at 01:17 AM ----------

Dude. He's 8 ****ing years old. You can take him down without pepper spray even if he's holding a piece of wood.

see my above post. You would "take down" an 8 year old? My god, what if you injured the child? What if he cracks his noggin on the floor and requires stitches?

Here's a better option. What if you don't take him down...you just grab his arm...and he decides to bite you...really hard, breaking the skin. Your only option to get him to break his bite is to smack him in the head.

Now you are hurt, and the kid still isn't under control.

See, it's not really all "common sense" is it?

---------- Post added April-7th-2011 at 01:21 AM ----------

but I can say from experience, to condemn the cops out of hand in this situation is miles beyond ignorant.

I think we don't have so many "ignorant" people, but people who refuse to see the truths and realities of the world we live in. Everybody is an "expert" in use of force, and controlling belligerent people until their job is to do it. Then things become much more complicated. People talk about common sense and judge, but those same people have never had to walk in those shoes.

[Predicto]

Associated is a dubious word. That could mean almost anyhting. In how many death have been directly attributed to pepper spray use?

Care to venture how many people have been killed/maimed during physical confrontations with police while wielding a knife (or similar object)?

I would be willing to guess that somewhere around, oh, I dunno, ZERO POINT ZERO 8 year olds have been killed/maimed during physical confrontations with police while wielding a piece of wood. Because that is what we are talking about.

Meanwhile, deadly allergic reactions can happen to any age person. I'm not saying pepper spray is bad. It has its uses.

I'm pointing out the fallacy of claiming that this was the "safe" way to handle this situation, because there was a big risk that the 8 year old kid was going to do a Steve Irwin job on a full grown and trained police officer.

Pepper spray is fine when you need to use it. That doesn't mean that any cop worth a nickel needs to use it to subdue an 8 year old.

[Commander PK]

That doesn't mean that any cop worth a nickel needs to use it to subdue an 8 year old.

have you ever had to subdue an eight year old that wasn't your own?

Without worrying about getting sued?

Without injuring the child?

Without having to deal with people who will question your decision no matter what you do?

Without being nailed to the cross in the court of public opinion?

Tell me, what specifically would be your solution to this situation presented with the exact same circumstances?

[Predicto]

And how many people have been pepper sprayed in the United States in the last 21 years? You'd have to use a whole lot of zeros after the decimal point and before the 1 when expressing the percentage of people that have died from pepper spray use alone.

The only reason I pointed out that pepper spray has risks is because some people in this thread are pretending that 1) there was a real risk of danger from an 8 year old with a piece of wood, and 2) there is NO risk from using pepper spray, therefore 3) this was the safest way for a police officer to handle this situation.

You may think I'm judging the police, and I guess I am. I deal with 8 year olds all the time and I know how small and weak they are, and how unreasonable they can be even if they don't have issues. This seems cruel and excessive and unneeded to me.

But what really got me going was the posters in this thread saying "little **** deserved it" and "cop had to do it because what if the kid dove through a plate glass window into a pool of sharks! It was the only way to be safe!!!!" That is weaksauce, for lots of reasons, not the least of which because pepper spray isn't foolproof either.

Keep hammering...kid, kid, kid. And throw in a few more fake statistics about his size. And go the ABC route, "On the surface, Aidan Elliott looks like any kid who likes to play video games." *cue clip of him slashing his opponents to bits in the game* Poor wittle baby. He was just minding his own business, tearing a building apart and threating to "kill mother ****ers." How dare the police come in and find away to defuse the situation and cause no injuries (and prevent who knows how many.) The ****s.

I'm hammering Kid Kid Kid because he is a just a kid, an 8 year old kid. And I looked up the average size of an 8 year old in the US and it is 3 foot 9 and 56 pounds. If he is above average he's still smaller than a goddamn hobbit.

I'm glad no one got hurt... well, actually someone did get pepper sprayed in the face. But that's ok, because he was a grown man who understood the consequen... wait.

[Koolblue13]

It was an 8 year old ****ing child! You don't spray pepper spray into their face. You just don't. My 9 year old niece just beat her teacher in her fencing class and I can still take her sword from her. How the **** can anybody justify spraying poison into a childs face for Christs sake?

[Commander PK]

"Police point taser at 8 year old, red dot causes cancerous tumor"

"Police tase 8 year old, child potentially suffers from irreparable brain damage"

"Police point gun at 8 year old, child now suffers from post traumatic stress"

"Police wrestle stick away from 8 year old, child cracks head on floor during fracas, required 456 stitches and staples to put his head back together"

"Police grab child's arm, stunts growth of child's arm muscles"

"Police barter hard candy to child if he hands over stick, child now suffers irreversible damage to his molars"

"Parents sue police for physically man-handling their child, "We tell our kids never to allow anyone to put their hands on you...even Police"

---------- Post added April-7th-2011 at 04:35 AM ----------

It was an 8 year old ****ing child! You don't spray pepper spray into their face. You just don't. My 9 year old niece just beat her teacher in her fencing class and I can still take her sword from her. How the **** can anybody justify spraying poison into a childs face for Christs sake?

Know what your talking about before you post. OC spray is not "poison." It's highly concentrated oil from red peppers called Oleoresin Capsicum. The effects last about 45 minutes, and there are no long-term effects. On very rare occasions, people may experience an allergic reaction.

This was no ordinary child or 8 year old. How many 8 year old children do you know would have an outburst like this kid did?

---------- Post added April-7th-2011 at 04:44 AM ----------

Again, I pose the question to all those opposed.

What specifically would you have done in these exact circumstances to bring the situation under control? The burden of not having law enforcement training is not my problem either, it's yours, because you say "Pepper spraying a child is not an option"

Your solution must meet the following criteria:

The child is brought under complete control.

The child is not injured.

There are no grounds for a law suit of any kind

Property is not damaged

Other students and teachers are not placed into harms way

Police are not placed into harms way

Your solution must fit all those criteria to be a "better option" than pepper spraying the kid. I'm all ears

[Thiebear]

Painkiller:

So your saying i have to do better than 456 stitches and staples to put his head back together.

Outburst? Hes in a special education class, outbursts happen. You going to pepper spray every child with an outburst that doesn't know better or can't help it in other cases.

The lack of patience is more than just the cop.

[LD0506]

The average 8 year old boy is 3 foot 9 and 56 pounds. Cmon now, people. All of these hypotheticals about what could happen are ridiculous. "What if he had a hatchet? What if he was secretly armed with a grenade launcher? What if you tried to grab his arm and he fell out a 14 story window?!??!?!?!"

Where'd they survey the punyass kids for that stat? TBH, this made me check for accuracy before saying something approximate. At 7 yrs old my boy is 4'6 1/2 & 90 lbs., quite well-behaved and a sweet disposition but when he acts out, as any 7 yr old will, he can generate a considerable amount force and is 100% unaware of his strength or the consequences. Controlling him without using force can be a delicate matter. So we have a sketchy news article about a kid that has a history of behavioral issues, being raised on videogames because mommy is busy still being a kid herself, one apparently aware that he was over the line but simply didn't give a ****. Now we add in all the attendant legal liabilities that teachers face in a zero tolerance atmosphere in a special needs class. The police are summoned and face the same range of "WTF are the lawyers going to make out of this?" options. The kid is channeling his inner XBox killer, making threats and has armed himself.

So yeah, they ought to have given him a cookie and let him play Grand Theft Auto in the teacher's lounge