Tunisian Revolution and the Middle East--And Now, The Withdrawal From Afghanistan (M.E.T.)

[CjSuAvE22]

Just be glad we are on our way out of there, the united states can never “change” any middle eastern country just like this country did their people will have to revolt and fight back till that happens issues in those countries will always exist.

[PeterMP]

1 hour ago, CjSuAvE22 said:

Just be glad we are on our way out of there, the united states can never “change” any middle eastern country just like this country did their people will have to revolt and fight back till that happens issues in those countries will always exist.

 

First, Afghanistan isn't in the Middle East.  

 

Second, I'm not sure the general idea is true. There are differences, but we absolutely changed Japan post-WW2 and S. Korea.  Maybe it isn't possible, but we didn't put in a reasonable number of people and resources to actually do it.  Though, I'm not sure the people and resources would have been worth it.

[tshile]

2 hours ago, Wildbunny said:

Yup, that was obvious from the beginning.

But no one in charge seemed to expect it, which means that either intel really sucks nowadays, or leaders are really bad at anticipating stuff.

I don’t know. Intelligence communities warned against it. They warned against an isis attack yesterday. My 5 am news rundown yesterday included State telling everyone to get the hell away from the airport. They said Americans not at the airport should not go, and ones at the airport should leave immediately. 
 

hours later two bombs go off. So. I really don’t get where the criticism of the intelligence community comes from…

 

originally I was willing to give Biden the benefit of the doubt that maybe they knew but out a good public face on things to try to encourage the best possible outcome. 
 

but enough has come out since then that it seems obvious there was an issue here. Either one of competence, or one of lack of prioritizing it. 
 

it doesn’t really matter either way. The bottom line is this is a failure of the administration. There’s reports out now we gave the taliban a list of afghans that helped us so they could get through check points… we gave them a kill list….

 

 

22 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

First, Afghanistan isn't in the Middle East.  

I think we have to accept that it will be referred to as such. 
 

we’re not real good at the whole geography thing. 

[Wildbunny]

2 minutes ago, tshile said:

I don’t know. Intelligence communities warned against it. They warned against an isis attack yesterday. My 5 am news rundown yesterday included State telling everyone to get the hell away from the airport. They said Americans not at the airport should not go, and ones at the airport should leave immediately. 
 

hours later two bombs go off. So. I really don’t get where the criticism of the intelligence community comes from…

 

originally I was willing to give Biden the benefit of the doubt that maybe they knew but out a good public face on things to try to encourage the best possible outcome. 
 

but enough has come out since then that it seems obvious there was an issue here. Either one of competence, or one of lack of prioritizing it. 
 

it doesn’t really matter either way. The bottom line is this is a failure of the administration. There’s reports out now we gave the taliban a list of afghans that helped us so they could get through check points… we gave them a kill list….

 

Seeing this from my end, warnings did appear yesterday, but only a few hours prior to bombings, which could be seen as a late warning.

 

Anyway, I was talking more about general case than this specific one.

 

But to me, blaming Biden here is irrelevant, had Trump been President, it would be all alike.

[tshile]

Well the whole thing just sort of happened. It’s not like the intelligence community could have warned us Isis was planning on blowing up areas at the airport as people were trying to evacuate, 3 weeks ago… it’s all sort of moving fast and just happening…

 

but yeah, I’m with you. 
 

the equipment thing cracks me up. People are so mad. 20 years of articles about how we’re failing to equip our troops, and all the sudden it’s “we just gave the taliban state of the art equipment”

 

the whole more blackhawks than 85% of other countries thing is trending on Twitter, no one wants to discuss that they have no ability to maintain them. I don’t know how long a Blackhawk can operate with no real, experience-driven maintenance, but I’m guessing not long. 
 

Iraq had tons of inoperable aircraft and they were the 4th largest standing army in the world when we invaded. They were a legit government with real global legitimacy. And they couldn’t keep their own **** running. But the taliban is going to run one of the largest black hawk fleets now? Get the **** out of here. 

[PeterMP]

35 minutes ago, tshile said:

I think we have to accept that it will be referred to as such. 
 

we’re not real good at the whole geography thing. 

 

But is an important point to recognize that not all Islam countries are the same, especially historically.

 

Afghanistan has changed.  The main form of Islam practiced there today is not the main form of Islam practiced there in the 1970s.  And that's true for all of the Central Asian Islamic countries.

 

For the Middle East, that's less true.  What you see in that region has been there for a much longer period of times (in among some of the Arab countries centuries).

 

Putting Afghanistan in with Saudi Arabia paints a false picture of the situation.

Edited August 27, 2021 by PeterMP

[Cooked Crack]

 

 

[tshile]

9 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

But is an important point to recognize that not all Islam countries are the same, especially historically.

 

Afghanistan has changed.  The main form of Islam practiced there today is not the main form of Islam practiced there in the 1970s.  And that's true for all of the Central Asian Islamic countries.

 

For the Middle East, that's less true.  What you see in that region has been there for a much longer period of times (in among some of the Arab countries centuries).

 

Putting Afghanistan in with Saudi Arabia paints a false picture of the situation.

Yeah I think like 10% or less of our population understands this sort of thing. 
 

i agree it’s important. 
 

 

[Riggo-toni]

1 hour ago, tshile said:

I think we have to accept that it will be referred to as such. 

 

we’re not real good at the whole geography thing. 

You wouldn't believe how many Americans I know...and I don't just mean dumbass MAGA types, who think Iranians and Afghans are Arabs.

[88Comrade2000]

If Trump was president, the withdrawal probably be worse. He would only evacuate white American citizens. No Afghanis would be evacuated. If there was an attack, he would retaliate in a way that would extend the conflict.

[tshile]

1 hour ago, Riggo-toni said:

You wouldn't believe how many Americans I know...and I don't just mean dumbass MAGA types, who think Iranians and Afghans are Arabs.

Despite our public school system specifically teaching the topic, I don’t think most people could get more than 30% of the state capitals…

[clskinsfan]

On 8/26/2021 at 11:54 AM, TryTheBeal! said:

I defy you to find anyone on Twitter happier about this suicide bombing than GQP accounts.  They are STOKED!

 

On 8/26/2021 at 12:24 PM, Jabbyrwock said:

**Gasp**  you mean to say that republicans will assume a callous disregard for human life other than their own if, by sacrificing it, they gain a perceived, if ephemeral, political talking point? I'm shocked!  Shocked I tell you!  Next you'll be telling me that such callous disregard will even extend to their own children's safety if it inconveniences their ability to easily obtain large numbers of armaments at the local walmart while not wearing a face covering.

I am sorry. To claim that people are celebrating the carnage we saw yesterday is disgusting. 

17 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

Its either they died defending the airport or somewhere else if we stayed, thats how war works.

No one died in the previous 18 months in Afghanistan. So no. That is not how this war works. 

[TheGreatBuzz]

2 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

 

I am sorry. To claim that people are celebrating the carnage we saw yesterday is disgusting. 

 

For people to actually celebrate is disgusting.  But pointing out that people are doing it (they are) isn't disgusting, it is pointing out a fact.

[clskinsfan]

17 hours ago, Fergasun said:

No one asked Bush to resign after 911. 

 

When did political class become crazy?  Oh... nevermind...

Did Bush put the plan together that caused 911?

2 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

For people to actually celebrate is disgusting.  But pointing out that people are doing it (they are) isn't disgusting, it is pointing out a fact.

Where are the links to people celebrating? There arent any. And to claim there are as a political cheap shot is disgusting. Period. 

[China]

 

[clskinsfan]

1 hour ago, Rdskns2000 said:

If Trump was president, the withdrawal probably be worse. He would only evacuate white American citizens. No Afghanis would be evacuated. If there was an attack, he would retaliate in a way that would extend the conflict.

Trump isnt President. This is all Bidens clown show. 

[TheGreatBuzz]

3 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

Where are the links to people celebrating? There arent any. And to claim there are as a political cheap shot is disgusting. Period. 

 

Have you even tried looking?  Here is a link to get you started.

 

https://twitter.com/home

 

[PeterMP]

11 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

No one died in the previous 18 months in Afghanistan. So no. That is not how this war works. 

 

The last 18 months is sort of cherry picking as we've had an agreement with the Taliban as we've been withdrawing, other groups weren't being very active, and the Taliban had an interest in keeping the agreement so that we'd be leaving.

 

The problem is now is that it is completely clear that we're leaving to every militant group and the Taliban doesn't really have very good control of the situation.

 

If this had happened 3 months ago before the complete collapse of the Afghan army and we'd withdrawn essentially all of our troops, it might change things in terms of our withdraw.  This is happening now because we have no choice.

 

But the last 18 months or so aren't a true reflection of the war.

Edited August 27, 2021 by PeterMP

[Riggo-toni]

2 hours ago, PeterMP said:

Afghanistan has changed.  The main form of Islam practiced there today is not the main form of Islam practiced there in the 1970s.  And that's true for all of the Central Asian Islamic countries.

 

Putting Afghanistan in with Saudi Arabia paints a false picture of the situation.

That's certainly true in the urban areas, but Wahhabist missionaries did make significant inroads into areas of what is now Pakistan and Afghanistan back in the 18th century.

 

The turning point for the current state of Islam was 1979 when Iran became an Islamic state, Saudi Arabia fought down a messianic insurrection, Pakistan's military overthrew its secular, nominally Shiite leader (Bhutto), and the Soviets invaded Afghanistan. The Saudis made further egregious concessions to the Ulama, promoting the spread of salafist doctrine across the Muslim world. The Pakistan military justified their coup along religious lines, and funneled all the the American aid and weapons to Pashtun forces loyal to Hekmattyar, while financing the creation of their own Taliban at home with the view of unleashing them against India in Kashmir.

 

If the US knew what they were doing and had decided to get directly involved, we could have sent the bulk of arms to Massoud and his forces, who were far more effective as well as tolerant (Massoud was reputedly a Sufi). Instead we sent a pittance to Massoud via the British so we could claim to Pakistan we had no control over him receiving funds.  Massoud was the last hooe of ever uniting Afghanistan, which is why Al Quaeda had him assassinated before 911.

[Jabbyrwock]

49 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

 

I am sorry. To claim that people are celebrating the carnage we saw yesterday is disgusting. 

 

 

Claiming people are celebrating carnage is digusting? ...hmmm...what does that remind me of...

 

 

'course...I never said "celebrate".  I said "callous disregard".  So in your head "callous disregard" == "celebrate"... it makes me suspect you are the life of any party you attend.

[tshile]

Also there’s many ways to celebrate something 

 

you don’t have to be jumping up and down going “yippee!”

 

you can simply enjoy your opportunity to flex your partisan brain muscles to attack your political foes using baseless claims, hypocrisy with your demands in regards to previous statements   
 

I mean, come on. Who here is so stupid that you actually think the number of GOP politicians spouting out about how Biden should have never pulled us out, while they have tweets back in March 2021 where they were demanding Biden leave immediately to meet the terms of the deal Trump negotiated with the taliban… is being driven by a genuinely patriotic concern about what’s best for our country and our service members?

 

is anyone here that stupid?

 

Is there someone here that thinks the rest of us are so stupid you can argue that it’s the case and we won’t be able to figure you out?

 

did the trump team scrub every reference to his taliban deal from his site, something g they used to proudly boast about (ending the war if Afghanistan), because they’re just honest people that genuinely care about what’s right?

 

sorry bud. No one here is that dumb. And if you want to continue on like we are, you’re gonna get wrecked real quick.
 

Cause after 4 years of Trump no one has any patience for that bull**** anymore. 

Edited August 27, 2021 by tshile

[Jumbo]

1 hour ago, clskinsfan said:

 

I am sorry. To claim that people are celebrating the carnage we saw yesterday is disgusting. 

No one died in the previous 18 months in Afghanistan. So no. That is not how this war works. 

 

 

i'm going to take a minute here

 

 

most of your posts in here have shown a lack of accuracy and intellectual integrity so far, with short posts that either misrepresent or misstates something that was said, or were simply wrong   

 

i could dissect each instance out for you but won't 

 

as to your vapid denial here, there certainly are a lot of maga people celebrating it in the form of 'how much damage it's done to the dems and biden' without any other context of regret for loss, and of course in 'discussions' where no one is ever making valid fair-minded counterpoints, or even presenting arguments that go beyond the basic 'dems have effed everything up horribly' or 'this is all on biden' partisan pabulum (before they get to the baby-eating pizza-mogul dems)

 

they are bubbly excited at the 'blood in the water' politically and not a word about the blood of the personnel lost and most of them don't give a **** about the dead afghans (of any stripe) and don't want the 'afghan helpers' over here anyway...talk about disgusting

 

to go further, there are the more militant maga groups, inc. several of the larger militias and others on reddit and other platforms, with thousands of followers currently liking posts that are actually calling personnel dying in the area as 'their own fault for being sheep following dem leaders' as a more direct and  extreme example of how you're just full of it yourself here, inc. with your condescending, gratuitous, and incorrectly applied insult ('disgusting')

 

asking for a link as you did earlier is yet another example of how dumbass partisan and intellectually weak you're being so far---it's real real easy to find the stuff, obviously

 

and that form of  sick 'celebration' stuff shouldn't be hard for an intelligent person who wasn't dedicated to their own bias to figure as 'more than likely' without even needing to see it first, but it sure is out there...it would only make logical sense in any solid analysis, but ask me for a link and i will do what i sometimes do when that happens and you won't like it

 

overall, you're doing poorly in here so far, presenting less thought and more bias than you do in stadium discussions which is not unusual, and that's not related to whether you go left or right

 

i've been wanting more intelligent open-minded conservative leaners, past or present gopers or indies, like thegreatbuzz, tshile, bang (once upon a time), myself in ways, and anumber of others...but what we tend to get these days are latecomer rw partisans, or outright trolls, or drive-bys usually at the hack level, or drop-ins who seem to be most invested in getting into 'pissing contests with lefties'

 

90% of the dedicated lefties  here can and do engage in intelligent, openminded, and fair debate but i can't even get close to saying that about "the other side" for the most part over the last 10 years or so (since obama won is a good cutoff) but that discrepancy has been really exacerbated in the trump era

 

 

i'd like to see you figure out how to make your cases and state your views with a minimum of lightweight bs and jabs at others because you've been a solid es'er for along time on the football side and i think you have the native intelligence necessary whether i agree with you on matters or not here or there 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Whoa.

[clskinsfan]

I will just stay on the Football side. I quit Twitter and other Social Media because all it turns into is a back and forth **** fest. No one is going to change anyone elses mind in this country at this point. I apologize if I offended anyone. 

[Jumbo]

3 hours ago, clskinsfan said:

I will just stay on the Football side. I quit Twitter and other Social Media because all it turns into is a back and forth **** fest. No one is going to change anyone elses mind in this country at this point. I apologize if I offended anyone. 

 

 

i know my post had elements that come off as harsh, but the bluntness (my preferred term) was a calculation as appropriate to the behavior (communication of your chosen words), not "at" the entirety of "you" as an es'er, let alone a person who i do not know other than from what i observe here in this limited scope

 

i would like to see you reconsider at any time...you're intelligent and have been quite stable as a poster for a long time (not a guarantee among diehard es'ers or even  fans of this team) and while the tailgate is a different beast, many here have made it work out well  despite strong differences...and don't worry about 'offending' just by having an opposing view....most here have pretty thick skins, as long as it's not actual personal insults (like "you're a effing idiot")....we take rule 5 to heart in here too and it gives a lot of leeway but also has limitations

 

i don't think it's ever a great idea to try to convince in these venues...that's a motive that interferes with the value to discussions much of the time....one can argue with another with a goal to learn their perspectives and test your thinking against other intelligent people who disagree, while not attacking or insulting on a personal level (though it's always an option and sometimes even ok---it's a risk)...just like football guys do in the stadium 

 

i give and take blunt assessments at times, but they're offered as objective and appropriate, not 'mean' or 'personal', tho i know it's pretty normal to read/hear negative criticisms and have a feeling reaction about them...i wasn't going for 'offending' you, but more a hard wake-up call and a challenge hoping you would take it up and stick...but i understand if the only stick you feel like picking up is one to whack me with, just remember it's illegal to abuse the elderly

 

i do stand by what i posted, but am hoping you understand that i actually want you to stay and post when and if you feel like it, just with a fresh  (and i not so humbly suggest 'better') approach than to how you started off and were continuing 

 

whatever you decide, i'm still a fan of your stadium work at minimum 

 

 

i will end my off-topic comments here