Tunisian Revolution and the Middle East--And Now, The Withdrawal From Afghanistan (M.E.T.)

[tmandoug1]

6 hours ago, Jumbo said:

 

they're waiting in ambush for the drop in trolls.

 

And who would they be?

6 hours ago, Jumbo said:

 

 

[Jumbo]

3 hours ago, tmandoug1 said:

 

And who would they be?

 

 

 

since you asked for whom the bell tolls, it is thee, ding dong

[Jumbo]

i'm not trying to hang a big hat on this piece, i just thought it was worth sharing and i do like his 'reduced to two sentences' take even if it's, of course, an incomplete and debatable summation...a couple other caveats: i am not 'cosigning' on everything, but i like a lot of aspects of the take and it matches other stuff i've heard from other higher ranking vets speaking in confidence, and also note that he is running for the senate as a dem

 

 

https://www.kansascity.com/opinion/readers-opinion/guest-commentary/article253641358.html

 

 

Quote

 

I served in Afghanistan as a US Marine, twice. Here’s the truth in two sentences

 

What we are seeing in Afghanistan right now shouldn’t shock you. It only seems that way because our institutions are steeped in systematic dishonesty. It doesn’t require a dissertation to explain what you’re seeing. Just two sentences.

 

One: For 20 years, politicians, elites and D.C. military leaders lied to us about Afghanistan.

Two: What happened last week was inevitable, and anyone saying differently is still lying to you.

 

I know because I was there. Twice. On special operations task forces. I learned Pashto as a U.S. Marine captain and spoke to everyone I could there: everyday people, elites, allies and yes, even the Taliban.

 

The truth is that the Afghan National Security Forces was a jobs program for Afghans, propped up by U.S. taxpayer dollars — a military jobs program populated by nonmilitary people or “paper” forces (that didn’t really exist) and a bevy of elites grabbing what they could when they could.

 

You probably didn’t know that. That’s the point. And it wasn’t just in Afghanistan. They also lied about Iraq.

 

I led a team of Marines training Iraqi security forces to defend their country. When I arrived I received a “stoplight” chart on their supposed capabilities in dozens of missions and responsibilities. Green meant they were good. Yellow was needed improvement; red said they couldn’t do it at all.

 

I was delighted to see how far along they were on paper — until I actually began working with them. I attempted to adjust the charts to reflect reality and was quickly shut down. The ratings could not go down. That was the deal. It was the kind of lie that kept the war going.

 

So when people ask me if we made the right call getting out of Afghanistan in 2021, I answer truthfully: Absolutely not. The right call was getting out in 2002. 2003. Every year we didn’t get out was another year the Taliban used to refine their skills and tactics against us — the best fighting force in the world. After two decades, $2 trillion and nearly 2,500 American lives lost, 2021 was way too late to make the right call.

 

You’d think when it all came crumbling down around them, they’d accept the truth. Think again. War-hungry hawks are suggesting our soldiers weren’t in harm’s way. Well, when I was there, two incredible Marines in my unit were killed. Elitist hacks are even blaming the American people for what happened last week. The same American people that they spent years lying to about Afghanistan. Are you kidding me?

 

We deserve better. Instead of politicians spending $6.4 trillion to “nation build” in the Middle East, we should start nation building right here at home.

I can’t believe that would be a controversial proposal, but already in Washington, we see some of the same architects of these Middle Eastern disasters balking at the idea of investing a fraction of that amount to build up our own country.

 

The lies about Afghanistan matter not just because of the money spent or the lives lost, but because they are representative of a systematic dishonesty that is destroying our country from the inside out.

 

Remember when they told us the economy was back? Another lie.

 

Our state of Missouri was home to the worst economic recovery from the Great Recession in this part of the country. I see the boarded-up stores and the vacant lots — one of which used to be my family’s home. When our country’s elites were preaching about how they had solved the financial crisis and the housing market was booming, I watched the house I joined the Marine Corps out of sit on the market for two years. My dad finally got $43,000 for it. He owed $78,000.

 

The only way out is to level with the American people. I’ll start. With the two-sentence truth about what we are seeing in Afghanistan right now: For 20 years, politicians, elites and D.C. military leaders lied to us about Afghanistan. What happened last week was inevitable, and anyone saying differently is still lying to you.

 

Cole County native Lucas Kunce is a Marine veteran and antitrust advocate. He is a Democratic candidate for U.S. Senate.

 

 

[bearrock]

If defense contractors could win mutibillion dollar contracts for infrastructure and social safety net programs, we probably would've passed several versions of the progressive wet dream bills in the last two decades. 

[Jumbo]

8 minutes ago, bearrock said:

If defense contractors could win mutibillion dollar contracts for infrastructure and social safety net programs, we probably would've passed several versions of the progressive wet dream bills in the last two decades. 

 

in recent times it's harder to just 'hate the gov't' at large as opposed to focusing more in the cancer that one party has become, but this reminds me of the good old days where you could take time to really note how effed up all kinds of stuff is with the governance we get from many leaders at all levels and of any party affiliation

 

it's always been hard to get good help i guess, and now the hiring pool (imv) has been cut severely as i cannot support most any gop candidate unless they are all-out longtime never-trumpers and even then it's hard cuz i'm like "why would any decent sane human want to still identify with that **** brand at this point?"

 

but i do get how hard that could be even for such people  to just switch to independent, let alone dem, after you thought there was a lot of good stuff within the gop' policies and platforms for most of your life and really didn't like a lot of the dems "stuff" and likely still don't

 

 

[TradeTheBeal!]

Bye.

 

 

[RansomthePasserby]

After two decades the Military’s counter insurance chapter is finished. Time to prepare for Cold War Part 2 China Edition. 

[visionary]

Edited August 30, 2021 by visionary

[PeterMP]

9 hours ago, Jumbo said:

i'm not trying to hang a big hat on this piece, i just thought it was worth sharing and i do like his 'reduced to two sentences' take even if it's, of course, an incomplete and debatable summation...a couple other caveats: i am not 'cosigning' on everything, but i like a lot of aspects of the take and it matches other stuff i've heard from other higher ranking vets speaking in confidence, and also note that he is running for the senate as a dem

 

 

https://www.kansascity.com/opinion/readers-opinion/guest-commentary/article253641358.html

 

 

 

 

But isn't he passing the buck to blame others.

 

What were they going to do if he filled out the paper work correctly?

 

Certainly, that wouldn't have been something would have been court marshable.  Maybe they wouldn't have promoted him or send it somewhere else (but even that's something the press would have eaten up.)  

 

If others are lying and you are going along with the lie (and have for years), you are part of the problem (maybe I'll cut you some slack if you something your life was actually at stake and you did do something to try to fix it).

 

But certainly, you don't get to say I knew this was a problem for years, and I didn't try to do anything about it, but it was these other's people's fault.

[NoCalMike]

It's real humbling to see that our country seems to have less of a stomach for ending wars than they do starting them.  There is more partisan & heated debate about the proper way we should have left than any kind of real discourse in the media in 2002 when it looked like we were headed there in the first place.   This entire war  & occupation has been a mess from the start and it just goes to show how out of sight out of mind Afganistan has been for the past 20 years (outside of the beginning of it and a handful of major incidents that rose to the occasion of corporate media coverage) that people think everything was going smooth until the withdraw of troops.  

 

The worst part is no lessons will be learned, in fact it seems have the elected officials are cheering on the idea of going right back in there.  

 

It's never going to actually end. 

[hail2skins]

I dunno No Cal. Obviously the initial scenes wth the crowds at the airport were chaotic, and then the killing of the 13 servicemen generated angst. But now that we're out, it seems like it's being met with more of a shrug than expected. I think people are getting exhausted by the churn and burn.

[NoCalMike]

11 minutes ago, hail2skins said:

I dunno No Cal. Obviously the initial scenes wth the crowds at the airport were chaotic, and then the killing of the 13 servicemen generated angst. But now that we're out, it seems like it's being met with more of a shrug than expected. I think people are getting exhausted by the churn and burn.

 

Really?  If so then that is a good sign.  I have really had to just turn off the news the past few days, it is unbearable to hear the same things said over and over, the false outrage and "concern for the Afgan people" being repeated.  It seems like nothing much constructive was being said by anyone so I just tuned out.  

[tshile]

8 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

The worst part is no lessons will be learned

If I’m angry about any of it, it would be that at the culmination of a 19 year mistake (cause going there was fine, staying for 19 years was the mistake), instead of us talking about this as adults and reflecting on bad decisions, etc, it’s a finger pointing game. 
 

The American people are handling the culmination of a 20 year occupation the way my children handle us catching them stealing candy from the pantry 
“She did it” “nu-uh he did it”

12 hours ago, PeterMP said:

 

But isn't he passing the buck to blame others.

 

What were they going to do if he filled out the paper work correctly?

 

Certainly, that wouldn't have been something would have been court marshable.  Maybe they wouldn't have promoted him or send it somewhere else (but even that's something the press would have eaten up.)  

 

If others are lying and you are going along with the lie (and have for years), you are part of the problem (maybe I'll cut you some slack if you something your life was actually at stake and you did do something to try to fix it).

 

But certainly, you don't get to say I knew this was a problem for years, and I didn't try to do anything about it, but it was these other's people's fault.

I don’t think that’s how the military works. 

[PeterMP]

2 hours ago, tshile said:

I don’t think that’s how the military works. 

 

So what happens?

 

(I know you aren't military and though GreatBuzz or somebody else would comment).

 

I've got a chart that I have to fill out for the Afghani military I'm working out.  The previous person made it all green.  After I've been working with them, I'm given the chart.  I make it so for 1/2 the activities they are now yellow.

 

Somebody (presumably a commanding officer) comes to me and says they were all green before.  They aren't supposed to go backwards.

 

I say, well in my opinion, that's where they are.  I'm not changing it. 

 

What happens next?

 

And there are processes in the military to report misconduct:
 

(e.g. https://www.daig.pentagon.mil/faq.aspx

 

If you know somebody is knowingly falsifying a report or forcing you to do so and nothing can be done about it going through the chain of command, that seems to me that is something you should file an IG report for.)

 

 

[tshile]

39 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

So what happens?

well. I mean I get 100% of what you’re saying. 
 

and I’ve never been in the military as you said. 
 

It’s just that I have a hard time being critical of someone telling us what he told us, and saying “why didn’t you do something about it then? You’re part of the problem”

 

I think military believes highly in chain of command. Highly. I think it looks poorly on people doing what you said. I think many people believe that will ruin your career. They actually just received a marine officer of duty and are kicking him out because he went on a rant online about how the military leaders botched this. Now, I get it, Facebook is not the appropriate way to report this sort of thing… but I’m not so sure the whole reporting thing works as well as you’re thinking, and Im willing to bet even if it did the actual people you’re relying on to exercise it probably are dubious they won’t have their career railroaded for it. 
 

I realize we believe in whistleblowing and protecting whistleblowers but I think reality has shown us that those things on paper don’t often translate to reality. 
 

and we see this sort of thing outside the military. We have a process for reporting, investigating, and prosecuting rape but we still have studies claiming a large portion go completely unreported. And we know at least a few of the reasons, and I think they relate to whistleblowing. 
 

so yeah - I agree. That’s what he should have done. 
 

but I’m going to stop short of blaming him for it. 
 

I’m open to the idea I’m wrong. 

[TheGreatBuzz]

1 hour ago, PeterMP said:

 

So what happens?

 

(I know you aren't military and though GreatBuzz or somebody else would comment).

 

I've got a chart that I have to fill out for the Afghani military I'm working out.  The previous person made it all green.  After I've been working with them, I'm given the chart.  I make it so for 1/2 the activities they are now yellow.

 

Somebody (presumably a commanding officer) comes to me and says they were all green before.  They aren't supposed to go backwards.

 

I say, well in my opinion, that's where they are.  I'm not changing it. 

 

What happens next?

 

And there are processes in the military to report misconduct:
 

(e.g. https://www.daig.pentagon.mil/faq.aspx

 

If you know somebody is knowingly falsifying a report or forcing you to do so and nothing can be done about it going through the chain of command, that seems to me that is something you should file an IG report for.)

 

 

 

1 hour ago, tshile said:

well. I mean I get 100% of what you’re saying. 
 

and I’ve never been in the military as you said. 
 

It’s just that I have a hard time being critical of someone telling us what he told us, and saying “why didn’t you do something about it then? You’re part of the problem”

 

I think military believes highly in chain of command. Highly. I think it looks poorly on people doing what you said. I think many people believe that will ruin your career. They actually just received a marine officer of duty and are kicking him out because he went on a rant online about how the military leaders botched this. Now, I get it, Facebook is not the appropriate way to report this sort of thing… but I’m not so sure the whole reporting thing works as well as you’re thinking, and Im willing to bet even if it did the actual people you’re relying on to exercise it probably are dubious they won’t have their career railroaded for it. 
 

I realize we believe in whistleblowing and protecting whistleblowers but I think reality has shown us that those things on paper don’t often translate to reality. 
 

and we see this sort of thing outside the military. We have a process for reporting, investigating, and prosecuting rape but we still have studies claiming a large portion go completely unreported. And we know at least a few of the reasons, and I think they relate to whistleblowing. 
 

so yeah - I agree. That’s what he should have done. 
 

but I’m going to stop short of blaming him for it. 
 

I’m open to the idea I’m wrong. 

 

I feel like there is a question being asked here but I'm not really sure what it is.

 

[Cooked Crack]

 

Edited August 31, 2021 by Cooked Crack

[Jumbo]

in the adress juts now biden was very forceful and thorough in defending his choices and even the process

 

if he was putin and i was trump, i'd say 'he was very strong in his denials, very powerful', although in this case biden's telling the truth as he really sees it

 

objectively, i think it was an excellent rebuttal to the basic noise (shoulda started earlier, shoulda maintained the profile we had etc) i've heard on 'how it was done all wrong' by some dems, all gopers, and all cable news
 

 

seen lots of sanctimony too in dems and tv hosts as critics but none that included detailed, supported alternative moves for each of the many factors to be considered, and even if they did then present real solutions based on valid data they'd need to explain exactly how they could be sure it would work better 

 

i'm not personally offering a blanket pass on joe & co, i just don't know exactly what specific i would nail them on and be able to proof my case to any serious standard...i think it was an ugly chaotic tragic mess (and that applies to everything we did there for decades that was over-reach) with super painful context and with a lot at stake given the current mess in our nation overall, and everyone went pretty reactionary emo across the board at the rapidity of the fall and it was juts too much to take without wanting a solid target for instant blame and the desire to believe it could have been much less tragic or less dangerous and would have 'saved everyone'

 

i think i'm on the side so far that anyway, anytime, we'd have done this it would be one form of tragic ****pile or another and there's no way for me to gauge them at this time, if there ever will be

[tshile]

3 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

 

I feel like there is a question being asked here but I'm not really sure what it is.

 

What the military culture around objecting to higher command’s way of doing business vs the duty to do so when you know they’re doing wrong 

 

the guy was an officer (I think) in the marines and says our government lied to us about Afghanistan. 
 

his point is that he shares in fault for not doing something about that. 
 

my point was, sure, but I don’t think that’s the way the military works in reality, even if they technically have rules and a process for doing such a thing. (Not that it makes it right - just what reality is what it ideally would be)

[tshile]

@Jumbo

i think what did the most damage to me, is that before the bombing I had wrapped Afghanistan up in a nice box, and tucked it away. Not forgotten.  Not diminished. Just boxed up like you do with anything you’re done with. 
 

And within a week I had to drag it back up, open it, and put more things in it. 
 

it felt like I had closure. Then I realized I didn’t. 
 

And to boot - when I saw the presser that the last planes were exiting Afghanistan airspace, I allowed myself to put the box away again….

 

I don’t know man. 

[tshile]

Also. Side note. There’s lots of discussion about Afghanistan in terms of deaths. But theres untold numbers of service members harmed either physically or mentally. And you can find estimates on every category but I personally know more than one person that was mentally affected and they don’t show up in any statistics. Cause it was never officially recognized/diagnosed/documented anywhere. And the predominant reason seems to be the stigma associated (at least a while ago) on things like PTSD. Or what it would mean for their career. Whatever numbers you find, they are an underestimate at best. 
 

in terms of deaths you cannot find a better batting average than <5k deaths over 20 years. You just can’t. The Spanish war in 18whatever had less but was only 1 year long. 
 

but there’s more to it  

 

Edited August 31, 2021 by tshile

[TheGreatBuzz]

9 minutes ago, tshile said:

What the military culture around objecting to higher command’s way of doing business vs the duty to do so when you know they’re doing wrong 

 

the guy was an officer (I think) in the marines and says our government lied to us about Afghanistan. 
 

his point is that he shares in fault for not doing something about that. 
 

my point was, sure, but I don’t think that’s the way the military works in reality, even if they technically have rules and a process for doing such a thing. (Not that it makes it right - just what reality is what it ideally would be)

I agree that’s not the way it should be done but it does seem to becoming more popular.  I think Capt. Crozer started that ball rolling.  The problem with these hot takes is you usually don’t have all the facts.  But just disagreeing with the way something is being done doesn’t mean you should go running to social media.  If that are flat at wrong (like illegal) you have resources such as the IG as you noted.  If you think things are morally/ethically/tactically wrong, your best bet is to follow the order at that moment but then follow up with the superiors of whomever gave the order.  Also, reaching out to your elected Congressperson is a good (actually great IMO) approach.  Running to Facebook just screams “look at me) and makes me suspect that person plans on running for public office in the future and wants their name out there.

10 minutes ago, tshile said:

@Jumbo

i think what did the most damage to me, is that before the bombing I had wrapped Afghanistan up in a nice box, and tucked it away. Not forgotten.  Not diminished. Just boxed up like you do with anything you’re done with. 
 

And within a week I had to drag it back up, open it, and put more things in it. 
 

it felt like I had closure. Then I realized I didn’t. 
 

And to boot - when I saw the presser that the last planes were exiting Afghanistan airspace, I allowed myself to put the box away again….

 

I don’t know man. 

 

4 minutes ago, tshile said:

Also. Side note. There’s lots of discussion about Afghanistan in terms of deaths. But theres untold numbers of service members harmed either physically or mentally. And you can find estimates on every category but I personally know more than one person that was mentally affected and they don’t show up in any statistics. Cause it was never officially recognized/diagnosed/documented anywhere. And the predominant reason seems to be the stigma associated (at least a while ago) on things like PTSD. Or what it would mean for their career. Whatever numbers you find, they are an underestimate at best. 
 

in terms of deaths you cannot find a better batting average than <5k deaths over 20 years. You just can’t. The Spanish war in 18whatever had less but was only 1 year long. 
 

but there’s more to it  

 

Don’t put that box away too soon.  The veterans crisis lines are reporting record numbers.

[TradeTheBeal!]

It’s one thing to puff out your chest, individually and on a national level, wave your flags and callously commit to wage unlimited, generational war…when the global factors beyond your control are falling in your favor.

 

When the hurricanes and wildfires and epidemics and Nazis end up on your doorstep?  
 

Well, you’re about to be changing your ways.  And best believe…it’s gonna sting.

 

But still, the only way is forward…

[tshile]

22 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Capt. Crozer

We were talking about the guy running for senate (dem) that wrote an op Ed about it all. 
 

https://www.kansascity.com/opinion/readers-opinion/guest-commentary/article253641358.html
 

sorry I forgot to specific which person we were talking about in the poses you quoted. 
 

I also discussed crozer but that’s not what petermp and I were going back and forth about 

[88Comrade2000]

Unless there’s a terror attack coming from  Afghanistan; this will be forgotten about a year from. Out of sight and out of mind; except to those who served or lived there. Or the gop try to use it to get votes.