Multiple Sources: Multiple shot including Congress Woman

[RansomthePasserby]

Agreed, Koala.

[Renegade7]

What could possibly be right about it?

He killed someone available that he considered stupid to bring attention to himself.

Maybe she was too conservative for him...no telling with a nut,though we will certainly try to find out.

This whole thing smells like BS, and I hope we do find out, because I don't believe this has anything to do with simply drawing attention to himself...

[Bang]

Every time something like this happens, we go through the same old song and dance. Who's to blame? What's to blame? What's wrong with our society?

Its tiresome. Who's fault is it? Its the shooters faults. Thats it, no deeper than that. Bottom line: some people are stark-raving ****ing insane. They find reasons to hate and distrust the outside world and then enact revenge fantasies on what they view as a sick world, when in fact it is themselves that are sick.

They are found in every society, in every culture: weirdos, psychos, crayzies. Its probably genetic, although there may be some social factors that enable them or make it easier for them to enact their hate-filled internal fantasies. From this perspective, if you object to the knee-jerk tendency to blame islam for every act of terror, to blame southern republicans for every hate-crime, than also you must object to the reflex to blame a political party, or the tea-party, or Sarah Palin, or anybody else, for this nutjob's work.

We all have strong feelings on some issure or another. Religion, politics, maybe even sports. But no matter how strongly we feel, only a very very very few decide that violence is okay in order to express their feelings on a given subject. The decision to enact violence is a seperate psychological phenemonem from the beliefs we hold, and in that way the beliefs a sane person holds are really in no way related to willingness to use violence to impose those beliefs.

Crayzes are crayzies. Just let it be. If they are willing to undergo mass killing for their objective, then you know immediately this is an insane person who doesn not deserve to have his beliefs analyzed or discussed. He's a mass-killer, thats all you need ot know about him, everytbhing else is incidental. Knowing that a certain percentage of all society has these kinds of folks, the discussion should be based more upon how to make it difficult to commit mass-murder (genreal security, gun control, etc.) than on finding a person to "blame" or a sector of society to "blame."

It may appear that the congresswoman was targeted, but this more coincidence than anyhting. She simply became the object of his murderous fantasies: if it wasnt her, he would have simply latched on to some other political figure, or some neighbor of his, or somebody else pretty much chosen simply in order to have a focus for his hate.

And whenever something like this happens and people say "what's wrong with our country? what could we do to try and find the root causes of such things?"

Someone else comes along and says "Nothing's wrong. Crazy people are to blame"

And then it happens again, and people say "what's wrong with our country? what could we do to try and find the root causes of such things?"

Someone else comes along and says "Nothing's wrong. Crazy people are to blame."

And then it happens again, and people say "what's wrong with our country? what could we do to try and find the root causes of such things?"

Someone else comes along and says "Nothing's wrong. Crazy people are to blame."

And then it happens again, and people say "what's wrong with our country? what could we do to try and find the root causes of such things?"

Someone else comes along and says "Nothing's wrong. Crazy people are to blame."

And then it happens again, and people say "what's wrong with our country? what could we do to try and find the root causes of such things?"

Someone else comes along and says "Nothing's wrong. Crazy people are to blame."

And then it happens again, and people say "what's wrong with our country? what could we do to try and find the root causes of such things?"

Someone else comes along and says "Nothing's wrong. Crazy people are to blame."

And then it happens again, and people say "what's wrong with our country? what could we do to try and find the root causes of such things?"

Someone else comes along and says "Nothing's wrong. Crazy people are to blame."

And then it happens again, and people say "what's wrong with our country? what could we do to try and find the root causes of such things?"

Someone else comes along and says "Nothing's wrong. Crazy people are to blame."

And then it happens again, and people say "what's wrong with our country? what could we do to try and find the root causes of such things?"

Someone else comes along and says "Nothing's wrong. Crazy people are to blame."

And then it happens again, and people say "what's wrong with our country? what could we do to try and find the root causes of such things?"

Someone else comes along and says "Nothing's wrong. Crazy people are to blame."

And then it happens again, and people say "what's wrong with our country? what could we do to try and find the root causes of such things?"

Someone else comes along and says "Nothing's wrong. Crazy people are to blame."

And then it happens again, and people say "what's wrong with our country? what could we do to try and find the root causes of such things?"

Someone else comes along and says "Nothing's wrong. Crazy people are to blame."

And then it happens again, and people say "what's wrong with our country? what could we do to try and find the root causes of such things?"

Someone else comes along and says "Nothing's wrong. Crazy people are to blame."

And then it happens again, and people say "what's wrong with our country? what could we do to try and find the root causes of such things?"

Someone else comes along and says "Nothing's wrong. Crazy people are to blame."

And then it happens again...

and again...

and again...

Talk about tiresome.

~Bang

[twa]

This whole thing smells like BS, and I hope we do find out, because I don't believe this has anything to do with simply drawing attention to himself...

Perhaps the full text of the letter he left will bring more clarity, someone with a loose grip on reality is never gonna be simple to explain

Crazy is easy,but incomplete

[Bang]

Perhaps the full text of the letter he left will bring more clarity, someone with a loose grip on reality is never gonna be simple to explain

Crazy is easy,but incomplete

i doubt there will be anything very coherent in there.

I'm sure in his head he had a clear purpose.. but like you say, it's likely not going to be something we understand.

~Bang

[SnyderShrugged]

This whole thing smells like BS, and I hope we do find out, because I don't believe this has anything to do with simply drawing attention to himself...

I hear what you are saying, I also have this niggling feeling that they knew of each other ahead of time more than we are being led to believe.

then again, I always enjoy a good conspiracy so take it with a grain of salt!

on another note, I had to look up what "conscious dreaming" was. Strange way to look at life, for sure. I never thought that something like that could somehow go in this direction.

[twa]

This ain't good if true....the source seems legit

http://thechollajumps.wordpress.com/2011/01/09/jared-loughner-is-a-product-of-sheriff-dupniks-office/

Jared Loughner has been making death threats by phone to many people in Pima County including staff of Pima Community College, radio personalities and local bloggers. When Pima County Sheriff’s Office was informed, his deputies assured the victims that he was being well managed by the mental health system. It was also suggested that further pressing of charges would be unnecessary and probably cause more problems than it solved as Jared Loughner has a family member that works for Pima County. Amy Loughner is a Natural Resource specialist for the Pima County Parks and Recreation. My sympathies and my heart goes out to her and the rest of Mr. Loughner’s family. This tragedy must be tearing them up inside wondering if they had done the right things in trying to manage Jared’s obvious mental instability.

Every victim of his threats previously must also be wondering if this tragedy could have been prevented if they had been more aggressive in pursuing charges against Mr. Loughner. Perhaps with a felony conviction he would never have been able to lawfully by the Glock 9mm Model 19 that he used to strike down the lives of six people and decimate 14 more.

This was not an act of politics. This was an act of a mentally disturbed young man hell bent on getting his 15 minutes of infamy. The Pima County Sheriff’s Department was aware of his violent nature and they failed to act appropriately. This tragedy leads right back to Sherriff Dupnik and all the spin in the world is not going to change that fact.

[ixcuincle]

http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/2011/01/journalists-urged-caution-after-ft-hood-now-race-blame-palin-afte

Fast forward a little more than a year, to January 8, 2011. In Tucson, Arizona, a 22 year-old man named Jared Lee Loughner opened fire at a political event, gravely wounding Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, killing a federal judge and five others, and wounding 18. In the hours after the attack, little was known about Loughner beyond some bizarre and largely incomprehensible YouTube postings that, if anything, suggested he was mentally ill. Yet the network that had shown such caution in discussing the Ft. Hood shootings openly discussed the possibility that Loughner was inspired to violence by…Sarah Palin. Although there is no evidence that Loughner was in any way influenced by Palin, CNN was filled with speculation about the former Alaska governor.

After reporting that Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik had condemned what Dupnik called "the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths about tearing down the government," CNN's Wolf Blitzer turned to congressional reporter Jessica Yellin for analysis. The sheriff "singled out some of the political rhetoric, as you point out, in creating the environment that allowed this kind of instance to happen," Yellin told Blitzer. "Even though, as you point out, this suspect is not cooperating with investigators, so we don't know the motive. President Obama also delivered that message, saying it's partly the political rhetoric that led to this.* So that's why we want to bring up one of the themes that's burning up the social media right now. On Twitter and Facebook, there is a lot of talk, in particular, about Sarah Palin. As you might recall, back in March of last year, when the health care vote was coming to the floor of the House and this was all heating up, Palin tweeted out a message on Twitter saying 'common sense conservatives, don't retreat -- instead reload.' And she referred folks to her Facebook page. On that Facebook page was a list of Democratic members she was putting in crosshairs, and Gabrielle Giffords was one of those in the crosshairs."

Yellin noted that Palin had "posted a statement on Facebook saying that 'my sincere condolences are offered to the family of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and other victims of today's tragic shooting in Arizona. On behalf of Todd and my family, we all pray for the victims and their families and for peace and justice.'" Yellin continued: "And I should point out that Republican leaders in Washington have said that this is not a partisan issue, this is about violence, as have some tea party groups. But clearly this is a moment to talk about our political rhetoric."

"It certainly is," Blitzer agreed. "But the question is, is there any evidence that the suspected shooter in this particular case was a Sarah Palin fan, read Sarah Palin's website, was a member on Facebook, watched her tweets, or anything like that?"

[Bang]

This ain't good if true....the source seems legit

http://thechollajumps.wordpress.com/2011/01/09/jared-loughner-is-a-product-of-sheriff-dupniks-office/

.

Ouch, that's bad if true. Maybe that's why she was watching his youtube page?

~Bang

[SnyderShrugged]

This ain't good if true....the source seems legit

http://thechollajumps.wordpress.com/2011/01/09/jared-loughner-is-a-product-of-sheriff-dupniks-office/

Jared Loughner has been making death threats by phone to many people in Pima County including staff of Pima Community College, radio personalities and local bloggers. When Pima County Sheriff’s Office was informed, his deputies assured the victims that he was being well managed by the mental health system. It was also suggested that further pressing of charges would be unnecessary and probably cause more problems than it solved as Jared Loughner has a family member that works for Pima County. Amy Loughner is a Natural Resource specialist for the Pima County Parks and Recreation. My sympathies and my heart goes out to her and the rest of Mr. Loughner’s family. This tragedy must be tearing them up inside wondering if they had done the right things in trying to manage Jared’s obvious mental instability.

Every victim of his threats previously must also be wondering if this tragedy could have been prevented if they had been more aggressive in pursuing charges against Mr. Loughner. Perhaps with a felony conviction he would never have been able to lawfully by the Glock 9mm Model 19 that he used to strike down the lives of six people and decimate 14 more.

This was not an act of politics. This was an act of a mentally disturbed young man hell bent on getting his 15 minutes of infamy. The Pima County Sheriff’s Department was aware of his violent nature and they failed to act appropriately. This tragedy leads right back to Sherriff Dupnik and all the spin in the world is not going to change that fact.

I tried to find their sources for that infoi and came up dry. Was the blog just speculating ya think?

[Bang]

I tried to find their sources for that infoi and came up dry. Was the blog just speculating ya think?

Maybe. I would bet we're going to see an awful lot of spinning and misdirecting.

We see a lot of people terrified of blame, so there will likely be proactive work done to make sure he's framed in the light that the given entities will want.

~Bang

[SnyderShrugged]

Maybe. I would bet we're going to see an awful lot of spinning and misdirecting.

We see a lot of people terrified of blame, so there will likely be proactive work done to make sure he's framed in the light that the given entities will want.

~Bang

yeah, we definitely saw a lot of that so far for sure. Heck, krugman alone was very proactive.

[GoSkins561]

Dick Wad is smiling in his mug shot, they shouldn't waste any time and just put this animal down.

[Predicto]

A couple of things occur to me.

First, a lot of what I am reading from this guy seems to be out of the playbook of the far-right "Sovereign Citizens" movement. These are the guys who don't think they have to pay taxes because the govenment does not control them, think they can issue their own money, issue their own arrest warrants, etc.

http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2010/april/sovereigncitizens_041310

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/08/12/growing-sovereign-citizen-movement-rewrites-history-rejects-government-warns/

If so, this does not really reflect badly on conservatives in general, because these clowns reflect "conservativism" in the same way that wild-eyed Trotskyites represent "liberalism." They are on the right side of the spectrum, but way off in their own bizarre world.

Second, his references to "the government controlling the grammar structure" seem to be invoking a nutter named David Wynn Miller, a tax protestor who claims that the government controls our minds through grammar and that if you change your name, you don't have to pay taxes or obey laws.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Wynn_Miller

Miller is a subset of the same "sovereign citizens" group.

[twa]

I tried to find their sources for that infoi and came up dry. Was the blog just speculating ya think?

Seems a rather extreme allegation for a person such as this,I'm sure he is biased ....but

http://thechollajumps.wordpress.com/about-the-cholla-jumps/

James Kelley is a native of Tucson, born here in 1961. A Navy veteran, he graduated twice from the Defense Language Institute in Monterey CA majoring in Albanian and Persian-Farsi. He was a Balkan area, Middle East North Africa, Southwest Asia, and Gulf Area analyst for the Naval Security Group and the National Security Agency. He received his Bachelor of Science in Sociology from the University of the State of New York, Albany. Since leaving the service he has worked as a premium cruise line representative, telecommunications specialist, real estate broker, and as a substitute teacher in local school districts.

Presently, Mr. Kelley is a contributing columnist for the Arizona News-Telegraph and the Executive Director of SocialNetworkingWatchdog.Org, a 501©3 non-profit organization dedicated to educating youth and seniors on personal security while using social networking.

He is politically active supporting conservative causes and serves as a precinct committeeman in the 29th Legislative District for the Pima County Republican party and a State Committeeman for the Arizona GOP.

[aREDSKIN]

Maybe. I would bet we're going to see an awful lot of spinning and misdirecting.

We see a lot of people terrified of blame, so there will likely be proactive work done to make sure he's framed in the light that the given entities will want.

~Bang

If the Pima Co. SD knew of these specific threats, which the sheriff has already admitted they did, and did nothing to adequately rectify/address them then the sheriff is in deep doo doo.

[SnyderShrugged]

Seems a rather extreme allegation for a person such as this,I'm sure he is biased ....but

http://thechollajumps.wordpress.com/about-the-cholla-jumps/

James Kelley is a native of Tucson, born here in 1961. A Navy veteran, he graduated twice from the Defense Language Institute in Monterey CA majoring in Albanian and Persian-Farsi. He was a Balkan area, Middle East North Africa, Southwest Asia, and Gulf Area analyst for the Naval Security Group and the National Security Agency. He received his Bachelor of Science in Sociology from the University of the State of New York, Albany. Since leaving the service he has worked as a premium cruise line representative, telecommunications specialist, real estate broker, and as a substitute teacher in local school districts.

Presently, Mr. Kelley is a contributing columnist for the Arizona News-Telegraph and the Executive Director of SocialNetworkingWatchdog.Org, a 501©3 non-profit organization dedicated to educating youth and seniors on personal security while using social networking.

He is politically active supporting conservative causes and serves as a precinct committeeman in the 29th Legislative District for the Pima County Republican party and a State Committeeman for the Arizona GOP.

I wasnt questioning the validity, just wanted to source it for other discussions on another board is all.

[lovetoaster]

If the Pima Co. SD knew of these specific threats, which the sheriff has already admitted they did, and did nothing to adequately rectify/address them then the sheriff is in deep doo doo.

Yeah, he is trying to deflect any responsibility, but if this is true, it is not going to work

[nonniey]

I know some on this board aren't going to want to hear this but does it seem given, yesterday and todays revelations and media take, that those who jumped and tried to lay this crime at the Tea Parties, Palin's, Conservative rhetoric, or Arizona's doorstep seem to have had this quickly boomerang on them? Seems like Krugman, Dupnik and others are getting evicerated today for their conduct and reactions to this event.

[TMK9973]

Seems a rather extreme allegation for a person such as this,I'm sure he is biased ....but

http://thechollajumps.wordpress.com/about-the-cholla-jumps/

James Kelley is a native of Tucson, born here in 1961. A Navy veteran, he graduated twice from the Defense Language Institute in Monterey CA majoring in Albanian and Persian-Farsi. He was a Balkan area, Middle East North Africa, Southwest Asia, and Gulf Area analyst for the Naval Security Group and the National Security Agency. He received his Bachelor of Science in Sociology from the University of the State of New York, Albany. Since leaving the service he has worked as a premium cruise line representative, telecommunications specialist, real estate broker, and as a substitute teacher in local school districts.

Presently, Mr. Kelley is a contributing columnist for the Arizona News-Telegraph and the Executive Director of SocialNetworkingWatchdog.Org, a 501©3 non-profit organization dedicated to educating youth and seniors on personal security while using social networking.

He is politically active supporting conservative causes and serves as a precinct committeeman in the 29th Legislative District for the Pima County Republican party and a State Committeeman for the Arizona GOP.

Come on -

His BLOG (Which is what it was - not a article for the newspaper he works for) cites ZERO sources for this.

Meanwhile -It would lay the blame at the sheriff - who has angered most Conservatives by saying that he thinks the chatter on the right has lead to this and the only person who has reported this is somoene who is working activly for conservative causes?

Doesn't pass the laugh test.

[Bang]

I know some on this board aren't going to want to hear this but does it seem given, yesterday and todays revelations and media take, that those who jumped and tried to lay this crime at the Tea Parties, Palin's, Conservative rhetoric, or Arizona's doorstep seem to have had this quickly boomerang on them? Seems like Krugman, Dupnik and others are getting evicerated today for their conduct and reactions to this event.

Well, I for one now find myself embracing violent imagery in politics. Glad they cleared up that it's nobody's fault so fast.

I think all of our politicians should use gun analogies and refer to their opponents as enemies who should be punished.

And I think that anyone who might ever be affected and influenced by such things obviously are not, and we should never ever consider what or how we say anything.

After all, it's been proven repeatedly by lots of yelling that no one who is crazy is ever influenced by anything outside of their own fantasies.

~Bang

[Burgold]

I know some on this board aren't going to want to hear this but does it seem given, yesterday and todays revelations and media take, that those who jumped and tried to lay this crime at the Tea Parties, Palin's, Conservative rhetoric, or Arizona's doorstep seem to have had this quickly boomerang on them? Seems like Krugman, Dupnik and others are getting evicerated today for their conduct and reactions to this event.

In a way though, that's the system working well.

When a story breaks, everyone scrambles and reports and interprets to the best of their ability usually on the basis of incomplete data. It's magnitudes of order worse these days since we live in a 24 hour news cycle with the cable channels. When the dust clears, corrections need to be made and things have to be set right. If someone really went off the deep end it has to be attended to.

There was a lot of reason to suspect a political cause to this shooting. Even at this moment, we don't know what the trigger was (and may never). Could the fiery rhetoric have been the strand of hay that broke the camel's back? Was it entirely irrelevant? Right now, we don't know. I believe that the hostility we hear nonstop these days likely puts more people in a sour than cheery mood.

Was the media irresponsible? In some ways, all the calls for greater media civility were exactly about that issue. Too often these days it seems no one's willing to take a breath before speaking. To me, this issue isn't about right vs left or blame or fault. It's about responsibility.

Clearly, we know one person who was responsible... the shooter. We also know that he has threatened many before. Why was it this time he decided to act on his threats? What changed? What drove him over the edge. Maybe he forgot to take his meds? Maybe he had a fight with a girlfriend? Maybe he heard something on TV about the rally which made him blow his top since she was already in his mind the enemy?

If Krugman and Dupnik overreacted or tried to push their agenda because of this event they deserve to get it because they were engaging in what I and a number of others were bemoaning and that is the lack of accountability, responsibility, and civility in today's media and political culture.

[JimboDaMan]

Well, I for one now find myself embracing violent imagery in politics. Glad they cleared up that it's nobody's fault so fast.

I think all of our politicians should use gun analogies and refer to their opponents as enemies who should be punished.

And I think that anyone who might ever be affected by sich things obviously are not, and we should never ever consider what or how we say anything.

After all, it's been proven repeatedly by lots of yelling that no one who is crazy is ever influenced by anything outside of their own fantasies.

~Bang

Also, I think it's a great idea to tell people that everything the other party does is a secret plan to take away their liberty and property, and we are rapidly approaching irreversible change in America, and unless we take decisive action NOW our children and grandchildren will suffer the consequences of our failure to act.

[lovetoaster]

Come on -

His BLOG (Which is what it was - not a article for the newspaper he works for) cites ZERO sources for this.

Meanwhile -It would lay the blame at the sheriff - who has angered most Conservatives by saying that he thinks the chatter on the right has lead to this and the only person who has reported this is somoene who is working activly for conservative causes?

Doesn't pass the laugh test.

True, we should wait until there is any confirmation on any of this. I am not one to necessarily place blame in a situation like this, because the shooter is obviously a disturbed individual. But it was odd to me that the sheriff seemed awful quick to talk about political innuendo inciting people. I did not really think that was his place. I could be wrong, but I feel like he has a different job in this case.

[aREDSKIN]

With all the red flags being report about this kid why is this?? The ol sheriff might be in a bit of hot water. Sheriff has admitted to knowing about prior "recent" death threats, behavior issues at the college where a mental health examination was required for re-entry and classified this guy as unstable etc.

Despite mounting concerns about his bizarre and disturbing behavior, local mental health authorities in Pima County, Ariz. said Monday that no one reported any concerns to them about Tucson mass shooting suspect Jared Lee Loughner.........

Snip....."To the best of our knowledge, he was never and is currently not enrolled in our system," said Neal Cash, president of the Community Partnership of Southern Arizona, the organization that provides mental health services to Tucson and Pima County for the state.

continues.....http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2011/01/jared-loughners-behavior-never.html