The Official Washington Basketball Thread: Wizards, Mystics etc

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Anyone know anything about the Wiz new assistant coach Don Newman from the Spurs? From what I read he is considered the "top assitant" and he is a defensive guy. But that's all I've been able to find out.

Basketball lifer

http://www.nba.com/coachfile/don_newman/index.html?nav=page

[Destino]

1.) Do you think the Wizards are more talented next season than Toronto, Cleveland, Detroit, Milwaukee, Atlanta, Philly, and Indy?

Toronto - Yes

Cleveland - No.

Detroit - Yes.

Bucks - No.

Atlanta - Yes.

Philly - No.

Indy - No.

2.) Do you think Chicago takes a significant step back if DRose is hurt most of the season?

3.) What are Brooklyn's prospects for next season like if Dwight has to miss a lot of time because of his back injury?

4.) How good is Indy if Portland signs Roy Hibbert?

5.) Are the Knicks a contender in the East next season?

6.) Is Boston?

7.) What are our chances of finishing second in the Southeast division?

8.) Do you all think we will make the playoffs?

2 - Does dropping from the best record in the NBA to 3rd place or lower in the Eastern conference count as significant? If yes, yes.

3 - 2nd-5th place in the eastern conference.

4 - He's getting a bit over rated. He's a 12-8 player right now and that good in terms of centers but he wasn't a game changer. Pacers are good without him but less good.

5 - Do you mean a contender to beat the Heat? No. They've already done as what they can do to the Heat in making sure Camby didn't end up in Miami where he would have been a major upgrade. They are no threat to the Heat in the post season.

6 - Maybe. It's hard to count them out because they just refuse to be bad.

7 - zero point zero zero.

8 - It's possible but unlikely. The team is still flawed in terms in it's construction and Beal will need time to adjust and my confidence in Wall being an allstar is waning.

[lovetoaster]

Griffin was also an extremely fast starter while Kemp took a normal amount of time to develop.

Well, to be fair, Griffin had two years at Oklahoma before he came into the league while Kemp never played college ball.

But you are right, I think he beats out Kemp statistically, and a lot of it is due to his off the charts athleticism and motor.

[Going Commando]

Toronto - Yes

Cleveland - No.

Detroit - Yes.

Bucks - No.

Atlanta - Yes.

Philly - No.

Indy - No.

You really think Cleveland and Milwaukee are more talented than we are? I'd take Wall and Beal over Kyrie and Waiters. I'd take Nene over Varejao. And I'd probably take Seraphin over Tristan Thompson. Last year they were probably more talented than we were at the start, but we've made so many big changes and had Seraphin emerge, I think we've overtaken them.

Monta and Brandon Jennings are good, Ilyasova is good, Larry Sanders and John Henson should be good defenders, Mbah a Moute and Dalembert are already good when they are healthy. Milwaukee is a pretty good team, they play great defense and have a good defensive minded coach. They're probably a better team than we are, but I think we've got more talent than them. I think that'll be the case for a while too. The ceiling for Wall/Beal dwarfs the ceiling for Ellis/Jennings IMO and it's also a better pairing of skills IMO. Vesely, Booker, and Seraphin are superior to their young group of Sanders, Henson, and Ekpe Udoh. It also doesn't help Milwaukee that they're division is full of comparably matched middling teams. I think we've got them.

2 - Does dropping from the best record in the NBA to 3rd place or lower in the Eastern conference count as significant? If yes, yes.

I think it'll be lower. You know Noah and Boozer will miss time. Deng isn't good enough to carry them.

3 - 2nd-5th place in the eastern conference.

I think they'll struggle early without Dwight. That team won't have any big men beyond Dwight post trade and a Joe Johnson/DWill back court is going to take time to sort out.

4 - He's getting a bit over rated. He's a 12-8 player right now and that good in terms of centers but he wasn't a game changer. Pacers are good without him but less good.

Looks like it was a moot point. But I think losing Hibbert takes away their only high quality big man. Granger can play up at PF but he's not a true big. After him and Paul George that team has a lot of meh. Darren Collison isn't as good as I hoped and George Hill is nothing special. Hibbert is one of the most effective low post scorers in the league. A Hibbert or Granger injury is a major set back for them--they go back to 8th seed hopefuls without them IMO.

5 - Do you mean a contender to beat the Heat? No. They've already done as what they can do to the Heat in making sure Camby didn't end up in Miami where he would have been a major upgrade. They are no threat to the Heat in the post season.

Without Amar'e, I agree. But if Amar'e ever gets it back, I wouldn't be so sure. Heat have no ability to stop scoring bigs and the Knicks should be improved defensively and at the point, their two biggest weaknesses.

6 - Maybe. It's hard to count them out because they just refuse to be bad.

I agree. Doc Rivers has been talking retirement though.

7 - zero point zero zero.

If you think we've got more talent than Atlanta, why do you think this will be the case? The Bobcats and the Magic will likely be terrible.

8 - It's possible but unlikely. The team is still flawed in terms in it's construction and Beal will need time to adjust and my confidence in Wall being an allstar is waning.

It's a flawed team but it should be a good defensive team with dynamic PG play. That can definitely get you into the playoffs. Especially since we've got some effective low post scorers.

I think the way we performed at the end of the year is a much better indicator of our future than the way we played at the beginning. That being the case, this team should get to .500. If we're not at least close to that, I'd consider it a large disappointment.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Well, to be fair, Griffin had two years at Oklahoma before he came into the league while Kemp never played college ball.

But you are right, I think he beats out Kemp statistically, and a lot of it is due to his off the charts athleticism and motor.

Seriously? Kemp's athleticism was right there with Griffin's. Him and Vince Carter are the two best in-game dunkers in my mind. And he was more skilled offensively. Much better handles. And a better defender. I mean ****, if Jordan doesn't exist, Kemp has a ring. Those Sonics teams were regularly between 55-65 wins. #1 seed in the West a couple of times. I never rooted for a non-Wiz/Bullets team harder, than I did for that '96 Sonics team who played the Bulls in the Finals. God I wanted them to win so bad.

And if the Sonics don't sign Jim freaking McIlvaine, Shawn Kemp is a HOFer.

That flip the ball under the arm and catch it, dunk contest move he always pulled used to be my go to on the 8 foot rims, lol.

Edited July 10, 2012 by G.A.C.O.L.B.

[Going Commando]

Well, to be fair, Griffin had two years at Oklahoma before he came into the league while Kemp never played college ball.

But you are right, I think he beats out Kemp statistically, and a lot of it is due to his off the charts athleticism and motor.

Griffin also got a year of being in an NBA organization and seeing how to comport himself as a pro before he was a rookie. He was also a year bigger and stronger because of it, and he already had an NBA ready body after his freshman season at OU. He stepped out onto the court one of the strongest PFs in the game day one and is probably in his physical prime now despite the fact he's a young player.

All that adds up to an absolutely ridiculous start from Griffin. 22 and 12 is crazy for a rookie. 20 & 10 with 55% shooting is a sensational follow up. This is a future HoF pace he is setting, and he's still only 22. Barkley thinks he could go down as the best PF in NBA history. I don't know if I'd go that far, since I think Duncan is still considered a PF at heart and I have a hard time seeing anyone top his achievements any time soon. But at this pace, Griffin will blow Kemp's numbers out of the water.

---------- Post added July-10th-2012 at 10:24 AM ----------

Seriously? Kemp's athleticism was right there with Griffin's. Him and Vince Carter are the two best in-game dunkers in my mind. And he was more skilled offensively. Much better handles. And a better defender. I mean ****, if Jordan doesn't exist, Kemp has a ring. Those Sonics teams were regularly between 55-65 wins. #1 seed in the West a couple of times. I never rooted for a non-Wiz/Bullets team harder, than I did for that '96 Sonics team who played the Bulls in the Finals. God I wanted them to win so bad.

And if the Sonics don't sign Jim freaking McIlvaine, Shawn Kemp is a HOFer.

That flip the ball under the arm and catch it, dunk contest move he always pulled used to be my go to on the 8 foot rims, lol.

Kemp was a similar phenomenon with the young fans. Kemp was cool. That high top fade and the trash talk and the dunk contest in game dunks was one of the coolest things in the NBA at the time. In school back then you had Kemp, Jordan, Pippen, Barkley, and KJ jerseys as the coolest ones you could wear. A little later is was JKidd, Shaq, Grant Hill, and Penny Hardaway that were the cool jerseys. And then you had my buddy steadfastly wearing his Reggie Miller jersey even though nobody else liked him.

I pulled hard for that Sonics team too. It was at the end of my fourth grade year, I was pretty broken up about them losing. I was so tired of the damn Bulls. I started to hate them almost as much as I hated the Braves at the time. Kemp was awesome and Gary Payton seemed like one of the few guys tough enough to **** with Jordan. Frasier was big, grunge was big, Seattle was a cool place. Even Detleff Schrempf was entertaining as a sort of novelty.

Comparing Kemp to Griffin, I think Kemp was the longer and leaner athlete with better coordination and body control. That's why I think he was a better defender and ball handler. Griffin is the more powerful player, and is a more relentless and skilled scorer IMO. Both are big and jump out of the gym and make defenders look stupid with their endless dunking. That's why they get compared so much I suppose. Kemp was a much better trash talker. His antics were a lot more fun than Griffin's little pro-wrestler muscle flex silent stare down. To me that's just dorky and cliche.

Best in game dunkers I've watched (in no order)

- Jordan

- Pippen

- Kemp

- KJ

- Vince

- TMac

- LeBron

- Griffin

- Josh Smith

- DWade

- Amar'e

- Baron Davis

Darrell Dawkins and Dr. J are really before my time. Karl Malone had his signature dunk but wasn't really a creative dunker IMO. I've always thought Kobe was kind of a vanilla dunker. Kind of like James Worthy. Dwight is an overwhelming dunker but he lacks style IMO. Carmelo is a good dunker but he's not really flashy. Kind of pudgy and ungraceful looking and goes for power dunks. He fools people with his explosiveness though.

DRose and Wall are actually pretty close. I could see them being right there on the list with another couple of seasons to add to their mixtapes. Wall throws down strong on big men.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu2dtSuHSxg

That was a whole lot of goon coming at him!

He's got freak body control, terrific length and hops, and is equally good finishing with either hand. He just kind of glides when he moves, including when he leaps and as you're watching you're like, "woah, he's still going up."

[StillUnknown]

I talked about this with LKB in the NBA thread, but I wanted Wizards fans thoughts on these questions:

1.) Do you think the Wizards are more talented next season than Toronto, Cleveland, Detroit, Milwaukee, Atlanta, Philly, and Indy?

Yes, Yes, Yes, No, Yes, No, No (provided Hibbert stays)

2.) Do you think Chicago takes a significant step back if DRose is hurt most of the season?

I think they still win enough games to finish no worse than the 4th or 5th seed

3.) What are Brooklyn's prospects for next season like if Dwight has to miss a lot of time because of his back injury?

Even without Dwight, I think they're good for the 3rd or 4th spot. Gotta think Joe Johnson improves playing with an elite PG.

4.) How good is Indy if Portland signs Roy Hibbert?

If they stay healthy, big assumption with Portland's bigs, and keep Batum, I think they could be 5th or 6th seed.

5.) Are the Knicks a contender in the East next season?

If contender means capable of beating the Heat, I say no chance.

6.) Is Boston?

Looking forward to seeing how their acquisitions and draft picks help out, KG isn't getting any younger. That series against the Heat had the feeling of a "last hurrah". Rondo is still one the best in the game, but I'm not sure he can carry the aging the bodies of KG & Pierce.

7.) What are our chances of finishing second in the Southeast division?

I'm completely discounting Charlotte, and its hard to know what Orlando will look like. Atlanta is due for a fall back without JJ. With the state of the other franchises competing for that #2 spot, I think we have the best shot.

8.) Do you all think we will make the playoffs?

We'll make the playoffs as an 8 seed, but with a sub .500 record. Then we shock the world and take down the Heat in round 1. At which point, I will get Grunfeld's face tattooed on my arm.

Edited July 10, 2012 by StillUnknown

[lovetoaster]

Seriously? Kemp's athleticism was right there with Griffin's. Him and Vince Carter are the two best in-game dunkers in my mind. And he was more skilled offensively. Much better handles. And a better defender.

Yeah, you are right, I loved Kemp and he was definitely a bad man. But it is easy to remember how it ended for him when he did not have that athleticism. I guess we don't know how things are going to end up with Griffin yet.

Kemp was definitely a better defender and ball handler, but Griffin has him beat on rebounding. I think Griffin can get a lot better offensively, but time will tell.

[StillUnknown]

Marc Stein

‏@ESPNSteinLine

Amnesty scuttle: Hearing Wiz giving "renewed consideration" to releasing Andray Blatche through amnesty clause during July 11-17 window

Marc Stein

‏@ESPNSteinLine

Wiz obviously don't want to eat $23+ mil still owed Blatche. But they also want to move on w/out him & know trade would be near-miraculous

Marc Stein

‏@ESPNSteinLine

In other words Wiz have 'til July 17 to keep scouring for Blatche trade. Wiz choice then, I'm told, is amnesty or pay Blatche to stay home

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

You really think Cleveland and Milwaukee are more talented than we are? I'd take Wall and Beal over Kyrie and Waiters.

I just don't how you can say that. Kyrie is better than Wall by a pretty dramatic amount at this moment. Beal and Waiters...well...no one knows.

(I'm just completely unsold on Wall right now).

PS

I don't think anyone has actually looked at Toronto's projected starting five for next year. It's raw as can be, but the ceiling for all their starters is pretty enticing.

And NBA insiders are saying crazy things about Valanciunas.

If Valanciunas would have been picked in the 2012 Draft last week, after playing the season with Lietuvos Rytas in Lithuania?

"I'd say he goes 2," one general manager said recently. "If he's in the Draft based on his body of work over the last 12 months, then I think he goes 2."

"I think No. 2," another executive said. "He was 5 last year, and you could say this is a stronger Draft class (in 2012). But considering his size and how hard he plays, and that he's been playing professional basketball another year, it certainly wouldn't be any lower than he was last year."

"Second or third," said a personnel veteran. "He didn't get any worse, that's for sure. He's really good."

Good enough that Valanciunas at No. 5 in 2011 is going to turn out to be an excellent investment, even if he didn't play in the NBA at all last year?

"Absolutely," the third executive said.

It almost didn't happen for Toronto. The Cavaliers should have taken Valanciunas with the fourth choice. They needed a center and had already lucked into the No. 1 pick by virtue of a trade with the Clippers that turned gold when L.A.'s selection won the lottery. The Cavs took Kyrie Irving, the eventual Rookie of the Year, so the miss on Valanciunas was much more palatable. Even though he would have been a Lithuanian center in a city where a Lithuanian center, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, was one of the popular athletes of his generation in any sport.

Cleveland passing on Valanciunas in favor of power forward Tristan Thompson started a chain reaction that only last week became clear. The Cavaliers couldn't go power forward again in 2012, also at No. 4, so they passed on Thomas Robinson to take Dion Waiters.

http://www.nba.com/2012/news/features/scott_howard_cooper/07/06/valanciunas/?ls=iref:nbahpt1

It's really fascinating to think that Cleveland could have rolled out Irving, Valanciunas, and Thomas Robinson this year if they had been patient. That's would be a hellacious young nucleus. (Thomas Robinson is probably not going to make multiple all-star teams, but he is ideal to be the third best guy on a playoff team).

Edited July 10, 2012 by Lombardi's_kid_brother

[Hersh]

I just don't how you can say that. Kyrie is better than Wall by a pretty dramatic amount at this moment. Beal and Waiters...well...no one knows.

(I'm just completely unsold on Wall right now).

I'm not totally sold on Wall yet either, but while Kyrie is a better pure scorer than Wall, Wall is a better assist guy. They are close in rebounds per 48 minutes, as well as steals, but Wall still leads in those categories.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I'm not totally sold on Wall yet either, but while Kyrie is a better pure scorer than Wall, Wall is a better assist guy. They are close in rebounds per 48 minutes, as well as steals, but Wall still leads in those categories.

Wall puts up numbers. And he is insanely athletic. Kyrie just looks like a guy that knows how to play basketball. To me, that's the difference between them.

With Irving, you look at hime and say, he just needs to get better. It's all there right now.

With Wall, it's more complicated. He needs to develop a jumper. He needs to play slower. He needs to understand team defense better. There are major holes in his game that just don't exist with Irving. He covers them up with being super-athletic. But that kind of advantage is always a bone spur away from being diminished.

[No Excuses]

1.) Do you think the Wizards are more talented next season than Toronto, Cleveland, Detroit, Milwaukee, Atlanta, Philly, and Indy?

Toronto: Yes

Cleveland: Yes

Detroit: No

Milwaukee: Yes

Atlanta: No

Philly: No

Indy: No

To me, the X factor for this year is Nene. When healthy, he'll make a damn good 1-2 punch with Wall. But I'm not convinced yet that we'll be able to keep him healthy.

On paper, we have talent, but the talent doesn't mesh well. This team will have to beat people down with size in the middle. There is a serous lack of finesse. And we have a rather mediocre bench unless Vesely, Singleton and Crawford make significant improvements.

[Destino]

You really think Cleveland and Milwaukee are more talented than we are? I'd take Wall and Beal over Kyrie and Waiters. I'd take Nene over Varejao. And I'd probably take Seraphin over Tristan Thompson. Last year they were probably more talented than we were at the start, but we've made so many big changes and had Seraphin emerge, I think we've overtaken them.

Monta and Brandon Jennings are good, Ilyasova is good, Larry Sanders and John Henson should be good defenders, Mbah a Moute and Dalembert are already good when they are healthy. Milwaukee is a pretty good team, they play great defense and have a good defensive minded coach. They're probably a better team than we are, but I think we've got more talent than them. I think that'll be the case for a while too. The ceiling for Wall/Beal dwarfs the ceiling for Ellis/Jennings IMO and it's also a better pairing of skills IMO. Vesely, Booker, and Seraphin are superior to their young group of Sanders, Henson, and Ekpe Udoh. It also doesn't help Milwaukee that they're division is full of comparably matched middling teams. I think we've got them.

All of this can be explained simply by stating that right now I don't rate John Wall highly. I can't ignore how serious a let down year two was for him and pretend that he's going to turn it all around in year three.

It's a flawed team but it should be a good defensive team with dynamic PG play. That can definitely get you into the playoffs. Especially since we've got some effective low post scorers.

I think the way we performed at the end of the year is a much better indicator of our future than the way we played at the beginning. That being the case, this team should get to .500. If we're not at least close to that, I'd consider it a large disappointment.

I see the team struggling to score. Wittman will let Beal, Crawford, and Wall shoot too much instead of structuring his offense around Okafor, Nene, and Seraphin. Instead of using movement to get the bigs better scoring chances he'll (once again) use the bigs to give the shot jacking perimeter players a breather on offense.

[Going Commando]

Wall puts up numbers. And he is insanely athletic. Kyrie just looks like a guy that knows how to play basketball. To me' date=' that's the difference between them.

With Irving, you look at hime and say, he just needs to get better. It's all there right now.

With Wall, it's more complicated. He needs to develop a jumper. He needs to play slower. He needs to understand team defense better. There are major holes in his game that just don't exist with Irving. He covers them up with being super-athletic. But that kind of advantage is always a bone spur away from being diminished.[/quote']

Or you can look at it that Kyrie will never be as good as Wall when they each reach their primes because he's not nearly as big and athletic.

There is a reason LeBron James is the most dominant force in the game and it's not just about his BBall IQ. Paul Pierce shares LeBron's IQ but has never been a comparable force.

Well, John Wall is that LeBron-like kind of athlete at PG.

Kyrie is the type of player who isn't going to get much better than what he is now. John is a player that's already outproducing him as a raw talent.

John doesn't need Kyrie's handles because he gets to the rim against anybody at any time he wants already. John could certainly use Kyrie's shooting ability, but he generates offense anyway by being a slasher and a far better passer than Kyrie.

And when each reach their defensive potential, Kyrie won't be close to as good defensively. He's not as big, strong, or fast. With John, you see the flashes of utter brilliance the same as you saw with LeBron early in his career. The chase down blocks. The strip steals that lead to monster dunks. Stopping three on ones in transition. Flying into position and taking charges.

LeBron was not a good shooter nor a good defender early in his career. But the things that made him special were his freakish athleticism, hustle, unselfishness, and rare court vision. John has all of those same qualities.

The skills and awareness will come for John. Everyone who has ever played with him has said it's only a matter of time before he's completely unstoppable. I give it three years before he's the undisputed best PG in the league.

[Hersh]

Wall puts up numbers. And he is insanely athletic. Kyrie just looks like a guy that knows how to play basketball. To me' date=' that's the difference between them.

With Irving, you look at hime and say, he just needs to get better. It's all there right now.

With Wall, it's more complicated. He needs to develop a jumper. He needs to play slower. He needs to understand team defense better. There are major holes in his game that just don't exist with Irving. He covers them up with being super-athletic. But that kind of advantage is always a bone spur away from being diminished.[/quote']

I'm not disagreeing with anything you said, but I think something else that will dictate how these two compare is how the teams are built around them. I think it's impressive that Wall averaged 8 assists per game for a terrible shooting team. IF the Wiz surround him with better shooters, his potential as a double digit assist guy is there. I don't see Kyrie having that same assist potential even when surrounded by better talent cause he is a scoring pg. Maybe if he set his mind to getting more assists he would, but it's just not his game.

[Destino]

I'm not totally sold on Wall yet either, but while Kyrie is a better pure scorer than Wall, Wall is a better assist guy. They are close in rebounds per 48 minutes, as well as steals, but Wall still leads in those categories.

Wall is also a year ahead of Irving.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

The skills and awareness will come for John. Everyone who has ever played with him has said it's only a matter of time before he's completely unstoppable. I give it three years before he's the undisputed best PG in the league.

Time will tell, I guess. I just don't have your confidence that Wall is one day going to do everything he does poorly really well.

[pjfootballer]

Wall puts up numbers. And he is insanely athletic. Kyrie just looks like a guy that knows how to play basketball. To me' date=' that's the difference between them.

With Irving, you look at hime and say, he just needs to get better. It's all there right now.

With Wall, it's more complicated. He needs to develop a jumper. He needs to play slower. He needs to understand team defense better. There are major holes in his game that just don't exist with Irving. He covers them up with being super-athletic. But that kind of advantage is always a bone spur away from being diminished.[/quote']

I like this assessment.

All of this can be explained simply by stating that right now I don't rate John Wall highly. I can't ignore how serious a let down year two was for him and pretend that he's going to turn it all around in year three.

While Wall didn't get worse in his 2nd year, I'm not sure he took the next step to getting better. I was expecting a better jumper from him this year. I was thinking he'd make the team better, but I think he treaded water, IMO.

[MonkFan8]

It's not really an encouraging sign that Kyrie is drawing rave reviews at the Select camp while we only hear mummers about John.

I don't know, I just have a bad feeling about the guy. I'd love to be 100% wrong and him turn into the star I thought he would be even before he got to Kentucky.

[Going Commando]

All of this can be explained simply by stating that right now I don't rate John Wall highly. I can't ignore how serious a let down year two was for him and pretend that he's going to turn it all around in year three.

I think John will absolutely make big strides this season and I can see him pushing for All Star consideration.

If last season was a big let down, I'll take it because he was still one of the best PGs in the conference despite the fact the team was horrible for most of the year and he doesn't know how to shoot or play team defense yet.

In terms of wholistic PG play, John is already in rare company with his ability to score, rebound, and assist teammates. I think CP3 and DWill are the only other guys with his kind of averages.

John's intangibles are special. His build and athleticism is the most special at PG in the league. ( I feel like this needs to be endlessly repeated, because it's getting shrugged off). He'll get it figured out.

Now that the team is better, I think you'll see John's numbers increase even if he makes no improvement whatsoever. That's not going to be the case though. First and foremost, I think he makes big strides as a game manager. He's been talking about how he's studying Tony Parker. He'll become a passable shooter and he'll improve defensively plus continuously add to his bag of tricks as a finisher.

He'll be an All Star eventually.

I see the team struggling to score. Wittman will let Beal, Crawford, and Wall shoot too much instead of structuring his offense around Okafor, Nene, and Seraphin. Instead of using movement to get the bigs better scoring chances he'll (once again) use the bigs to give the shot jacking perimeter players a breather on offense.

I actually like Wall, Beal, and Crawford as a three guard group and wouldn't mind seeing them dominate the offense. Nene thrives with limited opportunities and Seraphin will be easy to feed for buckets as a secondary option.

I want Wall to dominate the ball this year and kill teams with a high screen drive and dish game.

---------- Post added July-10th-2012 at 01:22 PM ----------

Wall is also a year ahead of Irving.

Wall was a better distributor and put up better all around numbers than Irving as a rookie. Also I think the lockout was a culprit in the lack of development from a lot of the rookies. Even Blake Griffin took something of a step back this season.

---------- Post added July-10th-2012 at 01:26 PM ----------

For those doubting Wall, just listen to the other players in the NBA talk about him. They see it in him. Wall is special.

---------- Post added July-10th-2012 at 01:47 PM ----------

Another way to look at Wall is he essentially walked into the NBA a 16-8-5 PG.

His jumping off point was as a high level starting PG despite all his rough edges. He came into the league and day one played at a level that good PGs like Kyle Lowry and Ty Lawson will spend their entire careers working to peak at.

Wall is 20, he will get better. And he's the most athletically gifted PG in the league. He may not start as blazing fast as a high skill player like CP3. But eventually there will come a point when John's skill levels will catch up to his talent and he will overwhelm his competition with his sheer giftedness and be an All Star.

[nuposse87]

I've said it elsewhere, Wall is a respectable jumper away from making it no contest IMO. Kyrie is a great talent and the statistics back it up. I have to think, the Cavs as an organization gave him a better chance to succeed early on. You are also comparing two rather different styles in PG play. Kyrie comes off more as a scoring PG. I see more Rose in Kyrie (except w/o the elite athleticism but somehow more efficient) than CP3. Wall will never be a scoring threat, I don't think he will ever average more than 22ppg, nor should he. The difference in defensive play is also quite stark. Kyrie isn't a bad defender, just rather average. Wall turned the corner in that department in my eyes last season. He can play lock down D and plays very good help D. His concept of team defense does need to improve, but with competent teammates in town now, I figure that transition won't be as big a issue. Still, it just comes down to Wall's ability to acquire a reasonable jumper, it is a make or break 3rd year for him.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

IWall is 20, he will get better. And he's the most athletically gifted PG in the league. He may not start as blazing fast as a high skill player like CP3. But eventually there will come a point when John's skill levels will catch up to his talent and he will overwhelm his competition with his sheer giftedness and be an All Star.

Couldn't you say this about 40 players over the last two decades?

And - out of curiosity - who is Wall going to beat out for the All Star team?

In the East, you have Rose, Rondo, DWill, and Irving. Rose and Rondo are probably going to be on the next eight All-Star teams. If Brooklyn gets Howard and sets the league on fire next year, DWill will be voted in as a starter. And who knows what happens if Jeremy Lin comes back and gets the Yao Ming treatment from overseas voters.

Do you think in three years, Wall will be considered better than Rose?

Part of the problem with Wall as your best player is I don't see how he ever gets higher than Third Team All NBA.

These are just the point guards he will be competing with pretty much forever: Westbrook, Paul, Rose, Rondo, Rubio, DWill, and Irving. Can a team be elite if your best player is the fourth or fifth best player at his position in the league?

Edited July 10, 2012 by Lombardi's_kid_brother

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Hey, I watched three Cavs games this year and like four youtube mixtapes. Can I give my opinion of Irving?

[Hersh]

I think it's still way too early to really judge Wall in any meaningful way. Replace Wall with the best PG in the league last year and the Wiz still don't come close to making the playoffs. Let's not forget what Wall was working with a starting lineup at the beginning of the season that included McGee, Lewis and Blatche, with rookies, 2nd year players, Nick Young and Roger Mason coming off the bench. That's the makings of a terrible team.

Having said that, Wall needs to take a step this year and there really are no excuses if he doesn't. Nene, Ariza, Okafor alone represent significant upgrades and I believe Beal does as well. We still lack enough outside shooters, but things are still much better for Wall now.

---------- Post added July-10th-2012 at 07:21 PM ----------

Hey, I watched three Cavs games this year and like four youtube mixtapes. Can I give my opinion of Irving?

Sure, but I've seen the commercial of Irving dressed as the old man so my opinion will carry more weight.