NYT: What is it with 20-somethings?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

A Bachelor's is seemingly this generation's high school diploma

And that's the problem! How do you put the cat back in the bag. Though I agree that too many people are going to college now, how do you tell people to stop going when a college degree is a minimum requirement now? We'd almost need an entire philosophical shift in the country to undo this...

Imagine if you're a marginal high school student who probably "shouldn't" go to college. How do you actually buck the trend and not go unless you have the confidence that it won't be a requirement anymore?

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I just don't and will never understand this mindset. Where's your pride man?

I think the opposite mindset is probably wrong and led us down this path.

75 years ago, it was common for three generations to live together under one roof. Grandparents moved in with their children. The grandchildren lived at home until they got married. Occasionally, after marriage, the grandchild and their spouse stuck around for a while.

Children living with their parents until marriage was still fairly common into the 70s. My dad sort of did it. Granted, he spend two years in the army and a year in a dorm, but he mostly commuted to school and worked in a mill until he finally graduated and married my mom at 26. My mom's brother did it. He was able to buy a house immediately upon getting married.

It's entirely possible that we were nuts to ever change this system.

If you live in the same town as your parents, what purpose does spending $800 a month on rent serve?

Now, if you are 24, living at home, and having your mother do your laundry and change your sheets...well..that's a problem of a different kind.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Everyone finds their way. But college isn't just about "finding yourself". It's about having fun before the real world.

You should not be in college.

Sorry, it's the truth.

[Rdskn4Lyf21]

And that's the problem! How do you put the cat back in the bag. Though I agree that too many people are going to college now, how do you tell people to stop going when a college degree is a minimum requirement now? We'd almost need an entire philosophical shift in the country to undo this...

Imagine if you're a marginal high school student who probably "shouldn't" go to college. How do you actually buck the trend and not go unless you have the confidence that it won't be a requirement anymore?

There is no putting the cat back in the bag. There are increasing incentives, grants, and scholarships for people that quite frankly have no business being in college.

You should see the quality of work in my classes, even in my graduate classes. The worst part is, the teachers have to curve the hell out of everything to pass these kids.

[Spanky22]

And that's the problem! How do you put the cat back in the bag. Though I agree that too many people are going to college now, how do you tell people to stop going when a college degree is a minimum requirement now? We'd almost need an entire philosophical shift in the country to undo this...

Imagine if you're a marginal high school student who probably "shouldn't" go to college. How do you actually buck the trend and not go unless you have the confidence that it won't be a requirement anymore?

An excellent question that I wish I knew the answer to. Personally, I think that, at some point, college is going to price itself out of the equation. If this recession continues, it may be sooner rather than later. Government backed student loans are a huge part of the problem. Colleges have been allowed to raise their rates because the government has been handing out student loans for those rates, not unlike what happened in the real estate market. If government student loans became more selective and dried up, the price of college would have to come down or college will go back to being just the playground of the rich.

For example (from an article I read about a month ago in the NY Times, I think), a young woman got $120,000 in govt loans to go to NYU and get a women's studies/sociology degree. Now she is surprised that she cant get a job over $35,000. Her loan repayment bills almost take her entire paycheck. Will she ever be able to pay that loan off? Unlikely.

So the question is, atleast from my point of view, should govt student loans differ according to what degree you are getting? I think so. Someone getting a basic liberal arts (soc, psych, art history, womens studies, etc) should never be able to get a loan for $120,000. They'll NEVER pay it off. Its just bad business that a for-profit loan maker wouldnt do because they know that they wont get paid back. At some point, either the loan system has to change, causing the colleges to drop tuition drastically, or the people going to college have to realize that they shouldnt waste $60,000 on a crap degree where they spent most of the time partying and didnt learn anything.

/full disclosure - psych degree, spent more time having fun than learning. I was a stupid kid. In retrospect, for the most part, college was a waste of my and my parent's money, which of course is mostly my fault for getting a psych degree with no intention of going into more higher learning. You cant do crap with a BS in psych.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

The worst part is, the teachers have to curve the hell out of everything to pass these kids.

That's the other issue I'm seeing (and I'm not condescending as I noticed it when I was in college over 10 years ago). It appears that the college mindset is to get the kids to pass...not to let them sink or swim. It's almost like college is the new high school.

When I was a kid, college seemed like this scary, big place where the cream would rise to the top and those who didn't belong would have to come to that realization or work their asses off to pass. But, in reality, if you show up to class, you can very easily get through with a B average. Highly-regarded colleges and universities have open-book/open-note tests, group projects, etc.

I'm not saying students don't get something out of this experience, but I am saying that I'm 100% certain that I learned less in college than someone probably did 40 years ago. Now, I got experience working in groups, delegating responsibilities, honing some technical skills, etc. (which, for all I know is more important).

All in all though, it just seems like kids get rubberstamped through college as long as they can afford to go. I wouldn't be surprised to find out of masters programs were similar...come up with the money and we'll get you your degree.

[zoony]

I think the opposite mindset is probably wrong and led us down this path.

75 years ago' date=' it was common for three generations to live together under one roof. Grandparents moved in with their children. The grandchildren lived at home until they got married. Occasionally, after marriage, the grandchild and their spouse stuck around for a while. [/quote']

Yah, they were called FARMERS. There was a reason my grandfather was one of 16 kids (3 adopted). There were 1000+ acres of unfertile land in Colorado to try to grow a bean sprout in. Took a few people to pull off.

My grandfather got a job in a Steel Mill in utah. Despite a relatively suburban setting, he still had 3 kids, and tried his best to maintain a chicken coop and a cow on his 3/4 acre lot. To some extent my father and his sisters were viewed as field hands, though not nearly as much as my grandfather was.

My dad had a huge garden when I was a kid. I had chores, lots of them. But, I was largely looked at as a son, not hired help. Though that wasn't always the case

Now, I've got a 10x10 square out back where I grow tomatoes. I don't see myself ever telling my son to go out and weed the garden. It's my garden, I put it in, I enjoy taking care of it. If he wants to weed the garden he can plant one himself.

It's called progress

Children living with their parents until marriage was still fairly common into the 70s.

Yah, as this country was slowly weening itself off the agrarian teat.

If you live in the same town as your parents, what purpose does spending $800 a month on rent serve?

If your parents make you feel comfortable enough living at home at the age of 24, your parents aren't doing their job.

But putting aside the idea that you might want to have an adult sex life, I would think the pride of doing something on your own would be the driving force. The same force that causes folks to do a good job in whatever they do, be it mop the floors at McDonalds or start out as an intern in a law firm.

Which probably explains why you never see Generation Y'ers mopping the floor at McDonalds anymore (they're above such things, thats what illegal immigrants are for)

so there.

....

[Rdskn4Lyf21]

That's the other issue I'm seeing (and I'm not condescending as I noticed it when I was in college over 10 years ago). It appears that the college mindset is to get the kids to pass...not to let them sink or swim. It's almost like college is the new high school.

When I was a kid, college seemed like this scary, big place where the cream would rise to the top and those who didn't belong would have to come to that realization or work their asses off to pass. But, in reality, if you show up to class, you can very easily get through with a B average. Highly-regarded colleges and universities have open-book/open-note tests, group projects, etc.

I'm not saying students don't get something out of this experience, but I am saying that I'm 100% certain that I learned less in college than someone probably did 40 years ago. Now, I got experience working in groups, delegating responsibilities, honing some technical skills, etc. (which, for all I know is more important).

All in all though, it just seems like kids get rubberstamped through college as long as they can afford to go. I wouldn't be surprised to find out of masters programs were similar...come up with the money and we'll get you your degree.

Students have ****ed more in graduate classes than undergraduate classes.

When there are discussions (which are graded and are even told to be professional) taking place that look like this:

"MY OPINION IZ THT SO N' SO...."

There is something really ****ed up. The wording and the capitalization is not an exaggeration either.

It all falls back to entitlement. All of the students are entitled to good grades, they are entitled to pass....no matter what intelligence or effort is there, they are entitled to that degree.

[Heisenberg]

Students have ****ed more in graduate classes than undergraduate classes.

When there are discussions (which are graded and are even told to be professional) taking place that look like this:

"MY OPINION IZ THT SO N' SO...."

There is something really ****ed up. The wording and the capitalization is not an exaggeration either.

It all falls back to entitlement. All of the students are entitled to good grades, they are entitled to pass....no matter what intelligence or effort is there, they are entitled to that degree.

That wasn't my experience in college at all. (I graduated a few years ago) I'd say that is more of a reflection of either the school you are attending or the degree you a pursuing. My guess would be a combination of both.

[China]

Can Generation Y Keep America Great?

By TOM FITZGERALD/myfoxdc

WASHINGTON - They are plugged in, logged on and the most tech-savvy generation in U.S. history. The young adults known as Generation Y also have something else going for them. They have a bit of an image problem with their older counterparts.

Maya Enista is 26 years old and a self proclaimed proud member of Generation Y. When it comes to the naysayers, she says, “I think every generation faces criticism".

That criticism she says are the often repeated opinions of her elders: that Generation Y is apathetic, self centered and generally looking out for itself.

“I actually welcome that argument,” said Enista. “I love fighting that fight.”

As the Chief Executive Officer of mobilze.org, she works to get Generation Y involved in social issues. It’s a topic she says that her peers are interested in and spurred her to pursue developing her website.

“I knew and believed in the optimism, engagement and energy of our generation,” Enista said.

But some numbers paint a different picture of Generation Y. The United States ranks 12th in the world among 25-35 year olds without college degrees. Likewise, the New York Times reports that 37 percent of unemployed young adults currently out of work. That is the highest since the 1930s. And 23 percent of them aren’t even seeking work.

Experts say it is combination of a bad economy and a tough road ahead. Rosetta Thurman, an author and expert on Generation Y, says a third of Generation Y is actually living with their parents.

Click on the link for the full article

[TD_washingtonredskins]

It all falls back to entitlement. All of the students are entitled to good grades, they are entitled to pass....no matter what intelligence or effort is there, they are entitled to that degree.

Well, I agree with that. I think that's a huge problem right now. However, someone has to allow that entitlement mentality to work! It's one thing for kids to feel entitled and wear down their parents...but the colleges/professors don't have to give in to that behavior.

Again though, the entitlement mentality was touched on in zoony's post too. Too many kids (20-somethings) would rather sit on their parents' couch and wait for a great job rather than take a lesser job to get out on their own. These kids believe that a high school degree entitles them to a college degree which entitles them to a well-paying job. If any of those things don't pan out, then it's circumstances that caused it, not them. But, instead of settling for plan B and working toward plan A...a lot of them sit around and complain about it until plan A is handed to them.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Allow me to, once again, explain the world to everyone.

Why does everyone go to college now? There are two reasons.

In the 50s, you had three choices once you graduated high school.

1. Go to college.

2. Get a manufacturing job.

3. Make a career out of the military.

That was pretty much the list.

In the 60s, we had the largest draft since WWII. However, it was an inherently unfair draft - one that was based on the idea of deferments. So, if you chose option #2, in 1965, instead of working for General Motors, you were likely going to find yourself working for General Westmoreland.

Most of my father's friends graduated in '63 or '64. Most of them planned to go into the steel mills like their fathers. Hell, steel workers in the 60s earned more than professional athletes. At 18, you could make twice as much as the teacher who nearly flunked you. My dad's best friend graduated on Friday and worked a double on Saturday.

However, a lot of those guys entering the workforce in '63 or '64 realized that they were risking going to Vietnam and getting killed. So, they did what any rational person would do. They found the cheapest state college they could afford.

So, without warning, a large group of students matriculated to our universities who - by all rights - didn't really want to be there and didn't necessarily belong there.

Now, professors are smart people. They understood the game. And they realized that if flunked young Anthony in English Lit 101, he was probably going to end up in Vietnam. In other words, that subjective F could be a death sentence. You know what? Let's just him a C- and keep the young man alive.

That began the idea of grade inflation.

That takes us into the 70s and 80s when the US manufacturing base pretty much died.

Now your list after high school looked like this:

1. Go to college.

2. Join the military.

3. Get a minimum wage job with no hope of advancement.

#3 did not look so good to anyone. So, now you had children of college graduates who figured that if did could get a degree, so can I? And you had people with no alternative in the jobs market.

Now, as I mentioned, colleges are run by smart people. They figured out, more students means more federal loans. And more potential donors. Hell, any one of these kids could accidently become the Condo King of Chicago. And that means a new Basketball Arena.

By all means, keep them in school!!!!

So, that C- becomes a B.

And that's the story of Christmas, Charlie Brown.

[PCS]

I remember this bit done by a comedian on one of those HBO or Showtime comedy shows back in the mid 80's.

"I went back to _______ and stayed with my parents for a couple of weeks. That reminded me of why I moved out in the first place."

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Yah, they were called FARMERS. There was a reason my grandfather was one of 16 kids (3 adopted). There were 1000+ acres of unfertile land in Colorado to try to grow a bean sprout in. Took a few people to pull off.

I think they were also called immigrants.

My great grandmother had six children, a husband, three stepchildren, and two borders living in her home (a relatively small row house). Through the years, nearly all of her 30 grandchildren lived with her at one point or another.

It's called progress

Progress has also created the McMansion. We now have families of 3 living in 4500 square foot homes that they cannot afford.

You could just as easily call it stupidity. I don't have a big problem with an "entitlement mindset" so much as I disagree with people on what they are entitled to.

If your parents make you feel comfortable enough living at home at the age of 24, your parents aren't doing their job.

Maybe they like you.

[Raub]

So, in about 3-4 years I'll be able to retire. My kids are 18 and 15. When I retire, they'll be 22 and 19. I can most likely retire completely, aside from a PT job maybe...if I can downsize our house and expenses (i.e. not have to support my kids). So, should I continue to have to work solely to support 2 ADULT children?

[Rdskn4Lyf21]

That wasn't my experience in college at all. (I graduated a few years ago) I'd say that is more of a reflection of either the school you are attending or the degree you a pursuing. My guess would be a combination of both.

If you graduated a few years ago, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you didn't take the majority of your classes online. If you didn't, did you read every student's essays and assignments that they would turn in. Don't take shots at my degree or my school without knowing the circumstances :slap:

Well, I agree with that. I think that's a huge problem right now. However, someone has to allow that entitlement mentality to work! It's one thing for kids to feel entitled and wear down their parents...but the colleges/professors don't have to give in to that behavior.

Unfortunately they do because their departments and deans do. I've seen too many circumstances of this at high schools and other colleges where the students will get a handful of them to cause a stir. If the teacher won't respond in the way that they'd like, they just go higher up.

[zoony]

I should start out by saying there is a ton of stuff about Generation Y to admire. And I mean that sincerely. Their creativity, intelligence, and open-mindedness is probably the best of any generation in this nation's history.

That said, my one real concern with Y is the unwillingness of so many of them to get their hands dirty. To WORK for it.

There seems to be some sort of mindset that you graduate high school and go to college and then possibly go to grad school or otherwise, then enter the workforce at $100k. There is an idea in their head about what business should be like and if the job doesn't hold to that standard they leave or look for something else. Are all of them that way? Absolutely not.

But, I've been in management and a corporate recruiter now for over 4 years and I've seen enough resumes and talked to enough people to have a little more than what is commonly called anecdotal evidence. Finding that young, hungry, do what it takes 23 year old fresh out of college is pretty much the holy grail.

You don't need a college degree, or any level of smarts for that matter, to make a million dollars. You really don't. Know what you need? A willingness to do what it takes, often what the other guy won't.

The guy that picks up my trash is a perfect example. If I'm outside I'll often stop and chat with him, and over the years I've gotten to know him pretty well. He drives a beat up truck and picks up trash for 10 hours a day, 5 days a week. I was casually talking to him (yesterday, actually) and I asked him how business was. He says he is maxed out- he currently has 950 customers.

I asked my wife what we pay last night. $30 a month.

So, rough calculation, this guy is grossing almost $30k a month. I GUARANTEE his truck is paid for, so his only overhead is insurance. He doesn't have any help. He also told me he'll often go out on the weekend and clean up housing sites (for contractors) for a $100 fee.

Now, I ask you. What generation Y'er would ever even consider this line of work? Don't answer it, no need. Chances are, when this guy retires an illegal immigrant will take over.

[Stugein]

Everyone finds their way. But college isn't just about "finding yourself". It's about having fun before the real world.

Sooo..not going to college somehow precludes having fun? The bars, concerts and clubs I hit and the lasting friendships I made in my post-high school years while working full time would've somehow been enriched had I been going to school full time instead?

Maybe I'm a wet blanket, but college should be about attaining a higher level of education so that you are better able to engage in intellectual pursuits and be a more valued, highly productive practitioner in your chosen career field. If having some fun along the way is a part of that, cool. But if someone feels that college should primarily be about personal discovery, having a good time and sowing their wild oats..well, that's a terribly irresponsible waste of money imo. If that's why you are in college, then you are there for all the wrong reasons.

[zoony]

I think they were also called immigrants.

Many european cultures and far-eastern cultures are traditional this way' date=' no doubt.

Italians, Greeks, etc. Big on inter-generational living. As part of the Americanization process though after a few generations this is phased out. Our culture of self-reliance and hard work wins out, in the end.

And I'm sure we're all familiar with the great numbers of Italians, Greeks, and Japanese that settled in West Virginia that helped form your view of the world.

Progress has also created the McMansion. We now have families of 3 living in 4500 square foot homes that they cannot afford.

You could just as easily call it stupidity. I don't have a big problem with an "entitlement mindset" so much as I disagree with people on what they are entitled to.

You're all over the place

Maybe they like you.

Maybe. But I don't really care for them.

So, in about 3-4 years I'll be able to retire. My kids are 18 and 15. When I retire, they'll be 22 and 19. I can most likely retire completely, aside from a PT job maybe...if I can downsize our house and expenses (i.e. not have to support my kids). So, should I continue to have to work solely to support 2 ADULT children?

It is obvious you don't really love your children. Get back to work, sucker.

[No Excuses]

When I was a kid, college seemed like this scary, big place where the cream would rise to the top and those who didn't belong would have to come to that realization or work their asses off to pass. But, in reality, if you show up to class, you can very easily get through with a B average. Highly-regarded colleges and universities have open-book/open-note tests, group projects, etc.

That is not my experience at all so far. It falls true for general requirement classes (basic sociology, psychology etc.) but all the courses related to my major and concentration (Genetics) are as challenging as they can get. You can't afford to go give a C effort and expect anything better. The research papers I have to write every two weeks have to be completely flawless for me to get an A. Also a B in college is pretty much useless now. If you are aiming for B's, then you really shouldn't be wasting your time and money on college.

Which brings me to my other point; useless courses that we are forced to take. I don't understand why I have to take classes and waste my brain power on material I won't even bother remembering when the course ends. It's a complete waste of money to have fixed have general course requirements. I should be free to chose what type of electives I feel like studying instead of having a stupid list that narrows down my options and forces me to take useless classes (Philosophy and Sociology). If it was in my power, all my electives would be geared towards religion and criminology but here I am taking all these history classes that I have no interest in.

[Heisenberg]

If you graduated a few years ago, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you didn't take the majority of your classes online. If you didn't, did you read every student's essays and assignments that they would turn in. Don't take shots at my degree or my school without knowing the circumstances :slap:

I wasn't just "taking shots" at anything - simply pointing out my perspective.

You're the one who took your experience - online apparently - and made a blanket statement about the entitlement culture and quality of college students as a whole. I was simply offering up my perspective that happened to be completely different.

I don't think I'd need to read every student's essay to develop an opinion. I depended on other students in almost every class for group work and writing particular portions of a project. I think my experience is comparable enough for me to discuss your argument.

If you take that as a "shot" - then I don't know what to tell you.

[z0eboy]

it's because the older generation has no integrity... the "20 ish" have regressed, check out our society... too many chiefs not enuff indians. One of my favorite songs Nas - "If I ruled the world"

[zoony]

Now your list after high school looked like this:

1. Go to college.

2. Join the military.

3. Get a minimum wage job with no hope of advancement.

This list is bull****.

Auto mechanics make $60k a year starting out. It's a tough job, though.

Electricians and plumbers, about the same, and much more during the boom. Seems like those jobs have mostly been taken by illegal immigrants.

The guy I hired to frame my garage in 2005 was running a crew and working 7 days a week, 12 hours a day. He was also making $250k annual. The guy was caucasion, I think, but was roughly the color of a Pakistani. He had muscles on top of muscles.

He complained the entire time he was working about the inability of finding anyone other than illegals to work his crew.

And this is relatively rural TN. Can't imagine what it's like in the metro areas.

[endzone_dave]

It all falls back to entitlement. All of the students are entitled to good grades, they are entitled to pass....no matter what intelligence or effort is there, they are entitled to that degree.

Where do you think they are learning the idea of entitlement from? If someone can't afford their house payment anymore, then the government should pay it for them. If someone doesn't have a job that provides health care, someone should give it to them. You can't fire me from my job for poor performance, I'll hire a lawyer...

[Rdskn4Lyf21]

I wasn't just "taking shots" at anything - simply pointing out my perspective.

You're the one who took your experience - online apparently - and made a blanket statement about the entitlement culture and quality of college students as a whole. I was simply offering up my perspective that happened to be completely different.

I don't think I'd need to read every student's essay to develop an opinion. I depended on other students in almost every class for group work and writing particular portions of a project. I think my experience is comparable enough for me to discuss your argument.

If you take that as a "shot" - then I don't know what to tell you.

I was joking about the "shots" thing...stupid me thought one of the smilies would make that understood.

My experience is not just online. It's from going to classes and working at different schools. Our generation is full of whiny, entitled ****es. That's the truth of it.