Vick indicted on felony charges (superdupermegamerge)

[hokie4redskins]

I agree with you that your innocent until proven guilty but the fact that Feds have a 95% conviction rate tells you that they pretty much don't attempt to prosecute unless they have you. These guys have a lot of evidence against Vick, just on the surface. They have at least 4 witnesses that will testify that Vick is the man. This is before they get anybody in the immediate opperation to roll over on him and believe me, that will happen. I respect your statements here but honestly, the Feds don't do this unless they got ya.

Unlike local courts or investigative bodies, they are not elected officials. They are appointed. This means that they don't have to reach for convictions. They basically do there job very systematically. Then, they present what they have and a decision is made to go forward based on there belief that they can get a conviction.

I hear ya. But does anybody have a link or graph to back up that 95% success-rate claim? I might've missed that post. I have a hard time believing that a bureaucratic, red-tape stricken entity like the Federal government can claim 95% successes in anything they pursue. Not to mention, you have to add the high-profile factor of Vick to the equation. Also, these so-called "informants" were probably heavily-bribed in interrogation. The feds probably lured them into saying exactly what they wanted them to say. It's still a "their word" vs. "Vick's word" situation. Any high-priced defense lawyer should be able to get this thrown out.

Again, we'll see.

[Bacon]

I feel bad for the Falcons and their fans. This season is going to be a nightmare.

You should check out their boards; everyone is expecting a sucky season.

[Mooka]

Does anyone know by what percentage dogfighting around the nation has decreased since they caught Vick and his people?

I seriously doubt there's any significant change.

There are no federal indictments for dog fighting unless you're Michael Vick.

[Zen-like Todd]

I hear ya. But does anybody have a link or graph to back up that 95% success-rate claim?

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/cityregion/s_464095.html

Beating a federal rap not easy

By Jason Cato

TRIBUNE-REVIEW

Monday, July 31, 2006

Like Las Vegas, the federal court system isn't built on winners.

About 95 percent of federal criminal defendants plead guilty. Of the remaining few who fight in court, nearly nine of 10 are convicted, according to national statistics.

But, on rare occasions, defendants go to trial, win and walk free.

Meet Ryan Schneiderlochner and James Grosjean.

Schneiderlochner, 34, a former Plum police officer, was acquitted July 24 of witness tampering. On the same day, another jury found Grosjean, vice president of a Collier construction company, not guilty of in a multimillion-dollar kickback scheme involving Allegheny Power and two local hospitals.

Many people familiar with Pittsburgh's federal court said they cannot remember another time when two acquittals came in the same week, much less on the same day.

"The odds are pretty stacked against defendants once an indictment is issued; that pretty much seals their fate," said Mark Allenbaugh, a Huntington Beach, Calif., lawyer and nationally recognized expert on the federal court system. "Once the indictment is issued, conviction is almost guaranteed."

Between 2000 and 2005, 99 percent of the 435,000 federal criminal defendants prosecuted nationwide were convicted. The conviction rate was the same for the 2,130 criminal defendants prosecuted during that period in the Western District of Pennsylvania.

Of the 420 people prosecuted last year in the Western District, 415 were found guilty by plea or jury, according to the Administrative Office of U.S. Courts.

A high conviction rate might spell tough-on-crime for some, but not for attorney Paul Boas, who defended Schneiderlochner.

"A 90-plus percent conviction rate isn't something that should be applauded. I think it's something you should worry about," Boas said. "That's what you see in totalitarian regimes."

He said Congress and the U.S. Supreme Court in recent decades have made it easier for federal prosecutors. He doesn't blame prosecutors for using weapons they're provided, but he thinks it has skewed the federal court system.

"Taking away someone's freedoms should never be easy," Boas said. "Unfortunately, it's become way too easy."

In federal court, charges typically are brought only when prosecutors are convinced they can get a conviction or plea. That leads to far fewer cases filed each year than state court, where more than 95 percent of criminal cases are handled.

While local federal prosecutors disposed of 420 criminal cases in 2005, more than 16,000 criminal cases were handled in Allegheny County Common Pleas Court.

U.S. Attorney Mary Beth Buchanan said plea deals are attractive to most federal defendants because her office prosecutes only cases that have been thoroughly investigated and evaluated. Federal prosecutors often work from the beginning with investigators, such as FBI agents, to build cases from the ground up -- a luxury not always enjoyed by county district attorneys.

Once defendants see the evidence, Buchanan said, most recognize they'd be better off pleading guilty.

Those found guilty at trial often face tougher sentences for causing the government to expend additional resources -- and for not taking breaks provided by federal sentencing guidelines and prosecutors for pleading guilty.

For example, a federal drug raid of a Shadyside apartment in February 2005 turned up a makeshift meth lab in a unit occupied by a Ross police officer and his girlfriend. Each was charged with three counts of conspiring to make methamphetamine and possessing the necessary equipment.

The officer, Michael Baird, pleaded guilty after striking a deal to have two charges dropped. U.S. District Judge Alan Bloch limited Baird's sentence to four months of time served, plus one year of probation -- including six months of electronic monitoring -- and a $2,000 fine.

His girlfriend, Jennifer Paczan, was found guilty by a jury. Bloch sentenced her to 33 months in prison.

Former U.S. Attorney Frederick Thieman said defendants shouldn't face tougher sentences just because they went to trial.

"There's a ridiculous cost to exercising your constitutional right to go to trial," Thieman said. "The stakes are too high."

Buchanan said defendants always have the right to go to trial.

"If a defendant believes they did not commit the crime as charged, or if they believe the government cannot prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt, then a defendant absolutely has the right to a jury trial," Buchanan said.

Those who lose shouldn't expect leniency after the fact, Buchanan said.

"They can't have it both ways," she said.

For Grosjean, the construction company executive acquitted last week, there was no alternative other than fighting the charges, said his attorney, Philip Ignelzi. Grosjean turned down a deal on the eve of trial to plead guilty and receive probation, Ignelzi said.

"Pleading guilty was never an option, and we said that from Day One," Ignelzi said. "But it's a tremendous roll of the dice, even when you have a defendable case."

[Hooper]

Here's another problem for Vick: because of who he is and the spotlight on this case, the Feds are not going to let him off with a slap on the wrist plea bargain. He'll have to plead guilty to some serious stuff most likely. At the same time, does he really want to risk this thing going to trial? What if he's convicted? Federal sentencing guidelines are no joke -- he would definitely go to prison.

[Winning Season Please!]

I hear ya. But does anybody have a link or graph to back up that 95% success-rate claim? I might've missed that post. I have a hard time believing that a bureaucratic, red-tape stricken entity like the Federal government can claim 95% successes in anything they pursue. Not to mention, you have to add the high-profile factor of Vick to the equation. Also, these so-called "informants" were probably heavily-bribed in interrogation. The feds probably lured them into saying exactly what they wanted them to say. It's still a "their word" vs. "Vick's word" situation. Any high-priced defense lawyer should be able to get this thrown out.

Again, we'll see.

Do you hope Vick is innocent or just that he will beat the charges? Sounds like the latter to me and if that is the case then...:slap:

[hokie4redskins]

Question...what will you say when he is suspended from football? What will you say when he is convicted?

Suspended from football? I'll attribute that to Goodell's Orwellian NFL dictatorship. Even with Pacman (and I hate Pacman), when, by all accounts, it seems a man could no longer walk because of him, I was surprised Goodell suspended him before he was even charged with anything.

I fully expect Vick to be suspended by Goodell. An NFL suspension, however, does not indicate proof of guilt. Goodell is not waiting for any verdicts. This is almost his own little policy of preemption. Pacman hadn't been convicted of anything when Goodell imposed the suspension.

When he is convicted? Don't you mean, IF he is convicted. See this is my whole point. Most everybody in this thread has already reached a verdict.

I'll cross that bridge IF it comes. As stated, most of you have already crossed that bridge.

[ABQCOWBOY]

I hear ya. But does anybody have a link or graph to back up that 95% success-rate claim? I might've missed that post. I have a hard time believing that a bureaucratic, red-tape stricken entity like the Federal government can claim 95% successes in anything they pursue. Not to mention, you have to add the high-profile factor of Vick to the equation. Also, these so-called "informants" were probably heavily-bribed in interrogation. The feds probably lured them into saying exactly what they wanted them to say. It's still a "their word" vs. "Vick's word" situation. Any high-priced defense lawyer should be able to get this thrown out.

Again, we'll see.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_327633.html

Criminals fear the federal system because there is no parole, stiffer penalties and a 98 percent conviction rate, Mullen and Buchanan said.

Here is a piece from an article speaking about a case that the ATF is prosecuted in Pittsburgh. The case is over illegal firearms but it does give a Federal Conviction Percentage of 98%.

In regards to the witnesses, doesn't matter. I will say with high confidence that the methodes used to obtain info from these witnesses will stand up in court. Chances are that they have already given testimony to the Grand Jury and that it has already been presented as evidence for justification of indictment. Basically, don't count on the Feds screwing up this case like the City of LA did with OJ. They are going to have all there ducks in a row and every one of them will be quacking on command.

[Ellis]

Suspended from football? I'll attribute that to Goodell's Orwellian NFL dictatorship. Even with Pacman (and I hate Pacman), when, by all accounts, it seems a man could no longer walk because of him, I was surprised Goodell suspended him before he was even charged with anything.

I fully expect Vick to be suspended by Goodell. An NFL suspension, however, does not indicate proof of guilt. Goodell is not waiting for any verdicts. This is almost his own little policy of preemption. Pacman hadn't been convicted of anything when Goodell imposed the suspension.

When he is convicted? Don't you mean, IF he is convicted. See this is my whole point. Most everybody in this thread has already reached a verdict.

I'll cross that bridge IF it comes. As stated, most of you have already crossed that bridge.

are you retarded?

:shhh:

[Boss_Hogg]

Several witnesses saw Vick at the dog fights, one even shouted out his name during a fight taping and was quickly "hushed" up by his posse.

I like VT and I used to cheer for Vick but this whole things makes me want to vomit.

The evidence is there, the Duke laccrosse case was different in that it was fuzzy from day 1.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19814494/

-Have a look

[Bacon]

When he is convicted? Don't you mean, IF he is convicted.

Go ahead and live in a fantasy land, but 95% chance of conviction is pretty high.

[Capt Rich Fla]

I bet they wish they still had Matt Schaub!

Tough luck for Vick.

Thank you! What a shame! Shaub was a better qb anyway. He may not have had the rushing yards, but the man had crazy skills. Just wait to see him play for the texans. They will not be the same pushovers anymore. Mark my words.

[turbodiesel#44]

You are officially a f'ing idiot.

What he said.

Sorry guys, as a peace offering, I have made you guys a new sig

[Winning Season Please!]

When he is convicted? Don't you mean, IF he is convicted. See this is my whole point. Most everybody in this thread has already reached a verdict.

I'll cross that bridge IF it comes. As stated, most of you have already crossed that bridge.

Ok IF...In reality I put that in there just to screw with you.

The fact that you must cross that bridge when you come to it proves that you have your hommer glasses on or you condone animal cruelty. IF he is convicted then he is a piece of :pooh: no matter if he is a Hookie, Falcon or even if he was a Redskin. He is a piece of :pooh: .

[Dirk Diggler]

I hear ya. But does anybody have a link or graph to back up that 95% success-rate claim? I might've missed that post. I have a hard time believing that a bureaucratic, red-tape stricken entity like the Federal government can claim 95% successes in anything they pursue. Not to mention, you have to add the high-profile factor of Vick to the equation. Also, these so-called "informants" were probably heavily-bribed in interrogation. The feds probably lured them into saying exactly what they wanted them to say. It's still a "their word" vs. "Vick's word" situation. Any high-priced defense lawyer should be able to get this thrown out.

Again, we'll see.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2940312

What do these federal charges mean for Michael Vick?

Vick is in real trouble. He is up against the might and majesty of the U.S. government with all of its agents, all of its investigative techniques, and all of its skilled prosecutors. If he has any doubts about the power and skill of the forces arrayed against him, he can call Scooter Libby, former chief of staff to Vice President Cheney, or he can call Lord Conrad Black, the disgraced media mogul now facing time in a federal penitentiary. If he still isn't convinced, he can call Jeff Skilling, the zillionaire Enron CEO who is now residing in a federal pen. All three of them hired brilliant (and expensive) lawyers. All three thought they could explain their way out from under federal charges. And all three were convicted. Vick can, and probably will, hire some of America's best defense lawyers, but they will face a serious battle

[hokie4redskins]

In federal court, charges typically are brought only when prosecutors are convinced they can get a conviction or plea. That leads to far fewer cases filed each year than state court, where more than 95 percent of criminal cases are handled.

So, I guess everybody believes everything they read in the newspaper? I'd like to see these "national statistics" the author is referring to.

Assuming the 95% is accurate, I can pretty much guarantee you the 5% of people who do indeed beat federal charges are bloody rich as all hell. Hmm, Vick is bloody rich as all hell. This would seem to work in his favor.

Another key word missed by a lot of you was "plea." I do not think Vick will be doing any time for this, IF he is indeed found guilty. They got his name on the indictment, and the best the Feds will hope for at this point is to get Vick and his lawyer to plea bargain, IF he was indeed guilty of something.

Again, we shall see.

[Winning Season Please!]

So, I guess everybody believes everything they read in the newspaper? I'd like to see these "national statistics" the author is referring to.

Assuming the 95% is accurate, I can pretty much guarantee you the 5% of people who do indeed beat federal charges are bloody rich as all hell. Hmm, Vick is bloody rich as all hell. This would seem to work in his favor.

Another key word missed by a lot of you was "plea." I do not think Vick will be doing any time for this, IF he is indeed found guilty. They got his name on the indictment, and the best the Feds will hope for at this point is to get Vick and his lawyer to plea bargain, IF he was indeed guilty of something.

Again, we shall see.

Again, it sounds like you don't care about innocence, just Vick getting off.:doh:

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I posted a link that was already posted from loljocks.com.

Anyway, I hope Vick ends up with a pit bull for a cellmate.

[Capt Rich Fla]

No, I just meant that he hasn't been CHARGED with anything yet... I mean he's only been indicted by a grand jury... I mean don't villify the man until you've got the "beyond a shadow of a doubt"....

I actually had a lengthy conversation with a dog, and here's what I learned...

Sandpaper is not smooth

A roof is over my head

Given the choice of being a chiuaua in Beverly Hills or a Pitt Bull in a rough inner city neighborhood who has to kill his own to survive, the dog adamantly said: "Rough"

Dogs would rather be in that situation...

With everyone stepping up that shadow of a doubt is turning into an anvil cloud. You can feel the air starting to chill a bit and hear the distant thunder.

[Stophovr6]

http://loljocks.blogspot.com/2007/07/falcons-react-to-michael-vicks.html

This is funny until you scroll to the bottom...at which point you may cry.

I posted that some pages back, did you get it from KSK? I love KSK.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Suspended from football? I'll attribute that to Goodell's Orwellian NFL dictatorship. Even with Pacman (and I hate Pacman), when, by all accounts, it seems a man could no longer walk because of him, I was surprised Goodell suspended him before he was even charged with anything.

I fully expect Vick to be suspended by Goodell. An NFL suspension, however, does not indicate proof of guilt. Goodell is not waiting for any verdicts. This is almost his own little policy of preemption. Pacman hadn't been convicted of anything when Goodell imposed the suspension.

When he is convicted? Don't you mean, IF he is convicted. See this is my whole point. Most everybody in this thread has already reached a verdict.

I'll cross that bridge IF it comes. As stated, most of you have already crossed that bridge.

Suspension, IMO, is the very least of Vicks worries. They got him. Of particular importance in this case is the fact that they have made this Conspiracy. Because this has been clasified as conspiracy, it means that they don't have to prove Vick new about any of this. It means that this case can be taken forward against Vick and he can be held responsible for anything that happened at his legal residency. Basically, Vicks defense posture suggesting that he didn't know what was going on and that his family took advantage of him will not fly. He's screwed.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I posted that some pages back, did you get it from KSK? I love KSK.

Yea...I did.

KSK is awesome.

[Stophovr6]

I wonder what kind of trouble Vick would be getting into right now if he wasn't a wealthy superstar.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

You mean, like the Duke rape case? Yeah, that seemed pretty "damaging" too. Forget the trial!!!! Let the public crucify Vick the way they were willing to do to the Duke Lax players!!!! Screw the justice system!! Screw "innocent until proven guilty"!!!!

As an attorney, I want to thank you for pointing out the number one reason why cases like the Duke lacrosse case are important and why it was extremely important that Nifong be punished for his actions. 98 percent of the time, prosecutors carefully consider the evidence and present a solid case. 2 percent of the time, they go off the reservation. Unfortunately, that 2 percent of the time becomes representative of the entire system.

From the time taken in preparing this and from the detailed provided, it looks like the federal prosecutors are very well prepared. I get no impression that this is a politically-minded witch hunt.

[Vinnick]

I wonder what kind of trouble Vick would be getting into right now if he wasn't a wealthy superstar.

He would just be a punk betting 50 bones on a dog fight.