On her birthday, what is America?

[gbear]

As the clock runs out on this July 4th, I am left with this question which seems so simple, but none of my answers seem satisfactory.

 

The first obvious answer is the U.S. is the 50 states that make her up.  However, that answer has some obvious and some only slightly less obvious problems.  The most obvious problems with the answer are the U.S. Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico, Guam, CNMI, and American Samoa.  After all, are our territories also the U.S.?  An only slightly less obvious issue, are the problems of reliance on a map to define us.  Lines on a map have a very poor history in defining any country long term.  They are often arbitrary deliniations for peoples to fight.  Did the drawing of lines on a map define Israel?  

 

The only answer I have come up with to give me even the slightest satisfaction is "America is a social contract agreed upon in principal by our forefathers and renewed with each successive generation.  This social contract recognizes people born within certain geographical limits as belonging to and protected by these shared ideals.  Principal amongst these ideals is the idea the contract is a living deal,  allowing for change through the expressed will of the people.  The strength of this American ideal is the adaptive nature of our country to change as we have need whether it be due to war or changing values. Nothing need be permanent, not slavery, not prohibition, not even internment camps.

 

So as I look around at the last couple years with increases in mass shootings, increases in racial tensions, separations of families for immigration issues, and all the other self inflicted ills I take some heart in that last thought about the adaptability of America.  My wish for America is may we live the Samuel Beckett quote, "Ever tried. Ever failed. No Matter.  Try again.  Fail again.  Fail better."  It may be frustrating at times, but...

[88Comrade2000]

America is dead.  We live in Trumperica- The Western Republic of Russia now.

[Kosher Ham]

This is going to get me in trouble. That picture has always been odd to me. 

 

America does not have open doors to everyone these days and has not for about 40 years. 

Locking folks up for breaking the law and separating them is kind of normal. 

 

Racial tensions are raised by racist people. Sad that so many of all races feel that way. 

Same can be said for religions. Why do these folks think they are better than the next man/woman ? 

 

Sorry. 

 

To answer your question from my view... It is the only place where we can even have this type of discussion, the only place that you can make yourself a millionaire and people do not even know, the only place where we can go to any other place in the world. 

The flip side is negative in several ways... and I can see some of that also. 

I'd still rather live here. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Renegade7]

America is a country with people from other countries.  I stopped in the emergency lane on the interstate across from the pentagon intentionally to get a good view of the fireworks.  Ahead of me was a family with two women in burkas, one not, all enjoying the fireworks.  America to me is that all three of those women had that choice regardless of how anyone felt about it, and they were celebrating that.  One day, we'll look at the advantage we have in our diversity and different perspectives as a strength, not a weakness.  This is an experiment, lets not forget that, and the whole world is watching, has been watching.

[Zguy28]

8 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

America is a country with people from other countries.  I stopped in the emergency lane on the interstate across from the pentagon intentionally to get a good view of the fireworks.  Ahead of me was a family with two women in burkas, one not, all enjoying the fireworks.  America to me is that all three of those women had that choice regardless of how anyone felt about it, and they were celebrating that.  One day, we'll look at the advantage we have in our diversity and different perspectives as a strength, not a weakness.  This is an experiment, lets not forget that, and the whole world is watching, has been watching.

Or we'll devolve into a Purge type society. Could go either way, but I wouldn't bank on utopia. Humans seem to always generally choose what is best for individual self. This is one area of agreement in worldviews based on religion (doctrine of depravity) and atheistic evolution (Darwinism/survival of the fittest). It would be nice to see an embrace of what immigrants can do for the nation, but even that is somewhat self seeking. Rhetorical: Why not both welcome them to add value to America and take value (education and skills) back to their origin nation and enrich it as well?

[PeterMP]

8 hours ago, Kosher Ham said:

It is the only place where we can even have this type of discussion, the only place that you can make yourself a millionaire and people do not even know, the only place where we can go to any other place in the world. 

 

This isn't true today.  Certainly, through large parts of Europe and Canada this same conversation can be held.  Income and class mobility is higher in many of the more socialist democracies around the world today.  I'm not quite sure what the last part means, but I'm pretty sure that many Europeans and Canadians have as few if not even fewer travel restrictions on them and are more welcomed in some parts of the world then Americans.

 

To answer the question posed by the OP, I've got two answers one optimistic one not:

 

1.  A work in progress

2.  An idea that never existed and now a declining empire.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Declining empire, with everyone assessing blame but not accepting that they could be part of the reason, too.

[TradeTheBeal!]

A fairly attractive but kinda weathered chick with big fake tits that drinks too much and has emotional problems.  

[Renegade7]

37 minutes ago, Zguy28 said:

Or we'll devolve into a Purge type society. Could go either way, but I wouldn't bank on utopia. Humans seem to always generally choose what is best for individual self. This is one area of agreement in worldviews based on religion (doctrine of depravity) and atheistic evolution (Darwinism/survival of the fittest). It would be nice to see an embrace of what immigrants can do for the nation, but even that is somewhat self seeking. Rhetorical: Why not both welcome them to add value to America and take value (education and skills) back to their origin nation and enrich it as well?

 

It's not supposed to be utopia, it's supposed to be co-existence.  Reconciliation needs to be a big part of that, but we're better off with people coming to the country with their growing family and particular skillset. 

 

It's a competition in regards to where the smart people are, and we need immigration to avoid stalling birthrate that's happening around the world for several other countries, like Japan, Russia, and even eventually China. 

 

Pretty much every generation has the same conversation about letting in such and such group, we got over most of them, most of us have forgotten those phases in our history, now some are like they were here all along.  

[TD_washingtonredskins]

25 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

This isn't true today.  Certainly, through large parts of Europe and Canada this same conversation can be held.  Income and class mobility is higher in many of the more socialist democracies around the world today.  I'm not quite sure what the last part means, but I'm pretty sure that many Europeans and Canadians have as few if not even fewer travel restrictions on them and are more welcomed in some parts of the world then Americans.

 

To answer the question posed by the OP, I've got two answers one optimistic one not:

 

1.  A work in progress

2.  An idea that never existed and now a declining empire.

 

Great post...

 

It seems many other Western nations have surpassed America. This is still a great country and a place I'm proud to live, filled with great people. But, objectively, it seems that places like Canada and many European nations have it figured out a little more. Maybe there are fewer obstacles and challenges to governing those countries, but they seem like great places to live, with freedom of choice/speech, and the ability to take more care of their citizens. 

 

It does feel like this is a declining empire...it'll happen so slowly that it may not impact my generation or my children's, but society will look back one day as the 2000s being the twilight of what America had been for the prior century. 

[Renegade7]

What do yall mean by declining empire? 

 

If closing our overseas bases is part of that, that wouldn't change the overall strength of the military.  I would support this if we can other countries if do the same thing. Russia's economy is stagnant at best, unless they do something to offset their aging and shrinking population like China is about to go through, it will be very hard for either one to replace us as the primer superpower. 

 

We could take a step back in regards to influence on global scale, but we like to wait until we're needed anyway prior to end of World War 2.  Now that other powerful countries have recovered for most part, it may be in our best intrests to not need everything to go through us to get done.  World wants to blame us for not doing enough in Syria, we're not the inly country with a military.

[The Evil Genius]

****ed.

[Kilmer17]

America is on the verge of "something".  I just dont know what that is yet.

 

 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

4 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

What do yall mean by declining empire? 

 

If closing our overseas bases is part of that, that wouldn't change the overall strength of the military.  I would support this if we can other countries if do the same thing. Russia's economy is stagnant at best, unless they do something to offset their aging and shrinking population like China is about to go through, it will be very hard for either one to replace us as the primer superpower. 

 

We could take a step back in regards to influence on global scale, but we like to wait until we're needed anyway prior to end of World War 2.  Now that other powerful countries have recovered for most part, it may be in our best intrests to not need everything to go through us to get done.  World wants to blame us for not doing enough in Syria, we're not the inly country with a military.

 

To me, it really doesn't have much to do with our presence around the world or the territories we control. It's best described in this article: 

 

https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/decline-and-fall-empires

 

In short, I think we are on the down slope of being the great America that thrived and, at its height, was the beacon of hope. From the article (since some of it is tough to read for my simple mind): 

 

Quote

As I see it, we should expect the United States to remain an indispensable nation for another generation, perhaps even two, but probably not three. But the rise of the East is not the only dynamic we need to consider when projecting future power structures. As social development rises ever higher, revolutions in genetics, computing, robotics and nanotechnology are beginning to feed back into our biology, transforming what it means to be human. As these changes accelerate, old-fashioned debates about whether America is number one may become increasingly irrelevant.

 

[China]

 

Once the religious, the hunted and weary
Chasing the promise of freedom and hope
Came to this country to build a new vision
Far from the reaches of kingdom and pope
Like good Christians, some would burn the witches

Later some got slaves to gather riches

 

But still from near and far to seek America
They came by thousands to court the wild
And she just patiently smiled and bore a child
To be their spirit and guiding light

 

And once the ties with the crown had been broken
Westward in saddle and wagon it went
And 'til the railroad linked ocean to ocean
Many the lives which had come to an end
While we bullied, stole and bought our a homeland
We began the slaughter of the red man

 

But still from near and far to seek America
They came by thousands to court the wild
And she just patiently smiled and bore a child
To be their spirit and guiding light

 

The blue and grey they stomped it
They kicked it just like a dog
And when the war over 
They stuffed it just like a hog

 

And though the past has it's share of injustice
Kind was the spirit in many a way

But it's protectors and friends have been sleeping
Now it's a monster and will not obey

 

(Suicide)
The spirit was freedom and justice
And it's keepers seem generous and kind
It's leaders were supposed to serve the country
But now they won't pay it no mind
'Cause the people grew fat and got lazy
And now their vote is a meaningless joke
They babble about law and order
But it's all just an echo of what they've been told
Yeah, there's a monster on the loose
It's got our heads into a noose
And it just sits there watchin'

 

Our cities have turned into jungles
And corruption is stranglin' the land
The police force is watching the people
And the people just can't understand
We don't know how to mind our own business
'Cause the whole worlds got to be just like us
Now we are fighting a war over there
No matter who's the winner
We can't pay the cost
'Cause there's a monster on the loose
It's got our heads into a noose
And it just sits there watching

 

(America)
America where are you now?
Don't you care about your sons and daughters?
Don't you know we need you now
We can't fight alone against the monster

[Elessar78]

In not even two years what America has stood for for decades and her alliances have been dramatically reduced. 

[zoony]

A place where people have no idea how good they have it.  

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Another good, but older, read about the decline of the American empire...sorry, this topic fascinates me because I always wonder if those other historic empires saw the end coming? This article is interesting because it's from 2010 and we have 8 years of reality to bounce against the points. 

 

https://www.thenation.com/article/decline-and-fall-american-empire/

 

Quote

As a half-dozen European nations have discovered, imperial decline tends to have a remarkably demoralizing impact on a society, regularly bringing at least a generation of economic privation. As the economy cools, political temperatures rise, often sparking serious domestic unrest.

 

1 minute ago, zoony said:

A place where people have no idea how good they have it.  

 

I hope nothing I'm contributing is giving that impression. Of course this is still one of very few nations on the planet where this way of life is tolerated. We are free and many cannot say that. My points are that I think we are on the down slope of the "greatness" that was experienced. 

[Renegade7]

@TD_washingtonredskins. If someone is going to suggest that our existence will be diluted by technology, why wouldn't this affect China which is projecting to have a population drop? It's not talked about a lot, but most of china's economic boom has come from vast investment in infrastructure, not dominated by actually sustaining businesses.  That's why they have some abandon cities with empty highways, and they've been borrowing like crazy to keep it up.  That's more unsubtainable then what we're doing.

 

This is going to look like fixing a map that had rampent gerrymandering in regards to our influence internationally: any change that works to normalize the map will look like a retreat or decline.  No country is supposed be spread out like we are, we did that to make sure no one else did instead.  It seems clear that even our greatest current state adversaries are looking for regional dominance, not global.

 

The world is caught back up to relevancy, the 50s and our total geopolitical dominance was predicated on our rivals being rubble.  Our economy is too large and diverse for us not to remain an economic superpower, we have too many nukes not to be considered a military superpower.  

 

What I'm trying to say is saying we won't be as dominant as we were is not to stay we won't stay a superpower, we held down the fort while everyone got back on their feet, we should be able to scale back now, we should have that conversation and seriously consider it.

 

[NoCalMike]

America is hope. It's not perfect, but the resiliency of hope absolutely must remain.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

1 minute ago, Renegade7 said:

The world is caught back up to relevancy, the 50s and our total geopolitical dominance was predicated on our rivals being rubble.  Our economy is too large and diverse for us not to remain an economic superpower, we have too many nukes not to be considered a military superpower.  

 

What I'm trying to say is saying we won't be as dominant as we were is not to stay we won't stay a superpower, we held down the fort while everyone got back on their feet, we should be able to scale back now, we should have that conversation and seriously consider it.

 

 

Great post. 

 

I agree with what you wrote. But isn't even going from "the" superpower to "a" superpower a decline by definition? It doesn't mean this will be a bad place to live in 10/20/100 years, it just means that we might be today what Great Britain was about 100 years ago. 

[Renegade7]

11 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Great post. 

 

I agree with what you wrote. But isn't even going from "the" superpower to "a" superpower a decline by definition? It doesn't mean this will be a bad place to live in 10/20/100 years, it just means that we might be today what Great Britain was about 100 years ago. 

Thanks.

 

To answer your question, and this is jus my opinion, but that depends on what you are measuring.  If your looking at our geopolitical, economic, and militaristic dominance, yes that monopoly is on decline.  But when I think of true decline I think more in terms of our economic and military rating, not our ranking. 

 

An analogy, we've been getting home field through the playoffs since the 50s.  Most other countries and traditional powers were under 500, but now we're seeing some that were never over 500 now getting 50 wins.  There will eventually be other 60 win, maybe even 70 teams, but where we fit in that is if we keep winning between 60 and 70 games ourselves.

 

If our GDP drops and or something happens to our nuclear arsenal, then we're talking decline in my mind, then were talking us winning only 50 games or being below 500.  There are a few countries you wouldn't expect admitting to needing us even they don't get along with us, that's different then the fall of so many empires before us.  Britain also willing shrank their military over time after giving up control of whole countries, not military bases as would be in our case.  I don't believe the personality of our country will allow in becoming jus another military power, #1 will always be that goal because we don't trust anyone.  

[TD_washingtonredskins]

2 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Thanks.

 

To answer your question, and this is jus my opinion, but that depends on what you are measuring.  If your looking at our geopolitical, economic, and militaristic dominance, yes that monopoly is on decline.  But when I think of true decline I think more in terms of our economic and military rating, not our ranking. 

 

An analogy, we've been getting home field through the playoffs since the 50s.  Most other countries and traditional powers were under 500, but now we're seeing some that were never over 500 now getting 50 wins.  There will eventually be other 60 win, maybe even 70 teams, but where we fit in that is if we keep winning between 60 and 70 games ourselves.

 

If our GDP drops and or something happens to our nuclear arsenal, then we're talking decline in my mind, then were talking us winning only 50 games or being below 500.  There are a few countries you wouldn't expect admitting to needing us even they don't get along with us, that's different then the fall of so many empires before us.  Britain also willing shrank their military over time after giving up control of whole countries, not military bases as would be in our case.  I don't believe the personality of our country will allow in becoming jus another military power, #1 will always be that goal because we don't trust anyone.  

 

This is what I was referring to. You put it very eloquently. We once dominated the landscape and now we are more open to challenges (and I think the gap will continue to shrink). We are the Patriots. Eventually the Bills or Jets or Dolphins will put something together to regularly win 12 games per year and not get swept by us every year. 

[Renegade7]

 

14 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

This is what I was referring to. You put it very eloquently. We once dominated the landscape and now we are more open to challenges (and I think the gap will continue to shrink). We are the Patriots. Eventually the Bills or Jets or Dolphins will put something together to regularly win 12 games per year and not get swept by us every year. 

Understood, and I feel where your coming from.  I'm not as intimidated (not saying you are) as I probably should be by this reality, but that's because I know it's in everyone's best intrests if we all catch up.  How many global issues are chain reactions from weak or failing states?  My concern is our stance on diplomacy how we get along with other countries. 

 

What trump is doing is taking us in the direction of being part of the axis powers, but if he's gone, it will be labeled a close call a generation from now.  Most empires that fell didn't have another that would step in to help them when the bottom started falling out, who our friends are matter just as much as where we rank militarily. 

 

This is one of the few things I agree with Trump on, if you look at miltary capabilities of countries like Germany and realize the smaller countries aren't much better, NATO is a speedbump without us, they need to step up, we need them to step up.  If we're smart, we need to reach out to African Union more before China gets anymore of a foothold there.

[TheGreatBuzz]

I think America and it's people need to decide what we want from our military.  Let's face it, no country on earth comes close to our strength (keeping nukes out of it).  Even including nukes, there are only a few that can destroy the entire world.  And we could do it multiple times more than they can.  Look at our Navy alone.  WE have 11 active aircraft carriers with 2 under construction with 2 more on order.  And we generally keep up that pace.  The next nearest country has 2.  

 

Do we need all that?  Well that is the decision that needs to be made.  Are we fine not being the world police?  Some say sure but they forget if we aren't, someone else will be and are we willing to be in their shadow.  Do we need to be able to respond quickly to any corner of the globe?  Maybe not.  But are we then okay letting a crisis somewhere in the world go without our help?  

 

Remember this:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-24/boxing-day-tsunami-how-the-disaster-unfolded/5977568

Quote

The Boxing Day tsunami in 2004 is believed to be the deadliest tsunami in history, killing more than 230,000 people across 14 countries.

 

I was there a couple days later helping with relief/clean-up.  I won't even share some of the stories but let's just say it was horrible.  Are we fine letting that be someone else's problem while we send a few items of assistance?