Let's All Get Behind Alex Smith! Or Not!! (M.E.T.) NO kirk talk---that goes in ATN forum

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, SWFLSkins said:

They have gotten better, but still can't get right, lol.

 

 

That pressure a constant in the NFL, that said, Kirk did himself no favors this week. Smith and Kirk are similar in playing styles, and probably good guys overall, but Smith clearly has learned more about perception. There is no Logos, t-shirts, slogans....just playing ball. 

and honestly, as a Pro anything, I would not want my Father making statements for me. Poor Look there.

 

I've watched every interview I can find about Alex.  He just comes off to me -- like Kelce says Mr. California.  Chill.  Chill. Chill. I agree staying out of social media will keep you out of trouble.   The thing is if you talk in an interview or tweet -- things can be easily taking out of context, parsed to death, etc.  I don't feel bad for athletes, celebrities, etc because heck they make a ton of money so they should be able to take the grief in stride -- but I can imagine the scrutiny over every word isn't a lot of fun for them.  So Alex staying out of that game keeps him out of trouble.  

[KillBill26]

55 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The more I listen to the beat guys (if their sources are good) the more I think Bruce isn't here for that much longer.  

 

I am not in the DC area, so you definitely have a better pulse of the beat guys than I do, but I would assume the only way Bruce leaves the Redskins is if it is his choice.  I don't think Dan would fire him.  If Dan has kept him around this long because he feels Allen has the political pull to get a new stadium deal done, then that means he has the political pull to make sure a stadium deal does NOT get done if he was bitter about Snyder firing him.  

 

I think the best we may be able to hope for is that Bruce is reassigned to a position that is solely related to a new stadium, and has nothing to do with player personnel or contract negotiations.  And hopefully he stays away from the podium as much as possible as well.

[KillBill26]

46 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

F. I think Bruce is a douche and incompetent.  

G. In part because of F, I totally sided with Kirk on the contract.

 

 

I agree with you that Bruce deserves criticism for the low-ball offer following the 2016 season in which Kirk had proven himself to be a decent starting qb in this league, and also the ridiculous press conference where Bruce basically blamed cousins for him not being re-signed are all on Bruce.  And his reputation among players and agents speaks for itself.  But there are two elements that have me cutting Bruce some, although maybe very little, slack in all of this.  And I don't know why I'm attempting to give him the benefit of the doubt at all, but:

 

1.  I don't blame the Redskins for not giving him a sizable offer following the 2015 season, as he only had a half season of good games.  He was terrible the first half of 2015.  Hindsight is 20-20, but to give a big deal to a QB who was far from a sure thing at that time is not a good approach.  Which leads me to this: later missteps aside, it's impossible to know how much that initial offering bothered Kirk.  And we don't know how much his agent was in his ear about what they perceived to be a low-ball offer.  The writing could have been on the wall by that point.

 

2.  Which leads me to my second point:  Is there any doubt that Kirk's agent played this perfectly? To get back to back tags at 44 mil, a fully guaranteed 90 million, and then have the chance to be an unrestricted free agent again at age 32, Cousins most definitely has maximized his earning potential.  

 

So combining these two points, I think we are overlooking the fact that cousins agent couldve used that low-ball offer in 2015 to convince cousins he was being disrespected from the get go, because then he could steer cousins down the path he wanted to go, (playing on the tags and not agreeing to a LTD too early).  Or they could've both realized it wasn't a matter of being disrespected, but decided they would both make it seem that way so the Redskins got the blame, and it wasn't perceived as Kirk never wanting a long term deal here ever, which is what I believe.  The Vikings also have a better team around him, which will help his next contract negotiation.  So my reaction to the whole contract situation is to give cousins agent credit more than to blame Allen.  And part of me feels this would've played out this way even if Allen didn't make those later missteps, but we will never know one way or another.  The Redskins only choices were:(1) ridiculously overpay to get a LTD, or (2) watch him walk.  In that light, I think they made the correct decision, and I don't blame Bruce for it.  I credit the agent.

[SWFLSkins]

2 hours ago, KillBill26 said:

I am not in the DC area, so you definitely have a better pulse of the beat guys than I do, but I would assume the only way Bruce leaves the Redskins is if it is his choice.  I don't think Dan would fire him.  If Dan has kept him around this long because he feels Allen has the political pull to get a new stadium deal done, then that means he has the political pull to make sure a stadium deal does NOT get done if he was bitter about Snyder firing him.  

 

I think the best we may be able to hope for is that Bruce is reassigned to a position that is solely related to a new stadium, and has nothing to do with player personnel or contract negotiations.  And hopefully he stays away from the podium as much as possible as well.

 

Gauging from the new guys added to the staff, retaining certain ones, Doug Williams post draft interviews....I'd say Bruce is indeed on Stadiums and stuff. If you are not in DC why not follow the local beat guys on twitter? 

1 hour ago, KillBill26 said:

 

 

2.  Which leads me to my second point:  Is there any doubt that Kirk's agent played this perfectly? To get back to back tags at 44 mil, a fully guaranteed 90 million, and then have the chance to be an unrestricted free agent again at age 32, Cousins most definitely has maximized his earning potential.  

 

 

 

All the while saying it wasn't about the money... 

[wit33]

It’s been my belief that contract negotiations with players in the now and future are going to be increasingly difficult. The Skins were on the forefront of it with a QB, so it will be criticized by the masses, because it’s never happened before. Kirk wanted a fully guaranteed 3 years, Skins passed. That’s how I see it. 

 

Just look at todays NBA as a guide; the NFL will be similar in 5-10 years, as far as player movement/perceived control. I dislike it as a fan and think the product will suffer, but the kids will eat it up and everyone will follow. 

 

 

 

[Bifflog]

33 minutes ago, wit33 said:

It’s been my belief that contract negotiations with players in the now and future are going to be increasingly difficult. The Skins were on the forefront of it with a QB, so it will be criticized by the masses, because it’s never happened before. Kirk wanted a fully guaranteed 3 years, Skins passed. That’s how I see it. 

 

Just look at todays NBA as a guide; the NFL will be similar in 5-10 years, as far as player movement/perceived control. I dislike it as a fan and think the product will suffer, but the kids will eat it up and everyone will follow. 

 

 

 

 

Actually I think the parameters of the game will keep this in check.  There will be some of it, but also moneyball clubs that win without dumping huge amounts into one or two players.

[wit33]

5 minutes ago, Bifflog said:

 

Actually I think the parameters of the game will keep this in check.  There will be some of it, but also moneyball clubs that win without dumping huge amounts into one or two players.

 

I hope so. 

 

Its happening and becoming more accepted in NFL circles and fans somewhat. 

 

The NBA has made this leap and now the norm for headline players to move around the league. The NBA is doing its best to protect teams by rewarding players with ability to sign larger deals with teams they were drafted by. Maybe the NFL will do all the crazy stuff the NBA does with contracts. 

 

Fortunately Smith took a deal consistent with the past.  

[MisterPinstripe]

52 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

I hope so. 

 

Its happening and becoming more accepted in NFL circles and fans somewhat. 

 

The NBA has made this leap and now the norm for headline players to move around the league. The NBA is doing its best to protect teams by rewarding players with ability to sign larger deals with teams they were drafted by. Maybe the NFL will do all the crazy stuff the NBA does with contracts. 

 

Fortunately Smith took a deal consistent with the past.  

Different sport. In the NBA one guy can take a team to the Finals, NFL you can't do that so you can't compare the two leagues and player movement.

[NoCalMike]

I believe Alex Smith plays with a chip on his shoulder but he keeps it well hidden and doesn't wear it on his sleeve like some players do.

 

Living in NorCal, I was a pretty close witness to the disaster that was the first six seasons of his career.  He was pretty much blamed for everything, not that he didn't deserve some of it, but that franchise during that stretch was about as dysfunctional as any in the NFL, changing out coordinators annually, lack of any kind of talent on offense. (They managed to slowly build a good defense though).  When the tide finally turned for the 49ers, Smith all of the sudden showed he was a solid QB and was a big part of some huge wins.  He played pretty damn well in the playoffs and outside of a fumble on special teams, might have very well led the 49ers over the Giants in the NFC Championship to go to the Superbowl.  What thanks did he get?  Getting benched the following season after Kap flashed some ability as a read option weapon at QB. 

[Skinsinparadise]

5 hours ago, KillBill26 said:

 

I agree with you that Bruce deserves criticism for the low-ball offer following the 2016 season in which Kirk had proven himself to be a decent starting qb in this league, and also the ridiculous press conference where Bruce basically blamed cousins for him not being re-signed are all on Bruce.  And his reputation among players and agents speaks for itself. 

 

This is 90% of my argument so we mostly agree on this point alone.

 

5 hours ago, KillBill26 said:

 

1.  I don't blame the Redskins for not giving him a sizable offer following the 2015 season, as he only had a half season of good games. 

 

In theory neither do I.  But as I've read more articles in depth about teams like the Eagles and others that seem to be a step ahead -- the best ones seem to be ahead of the curve in evaluating their own players and making projections quickly -- it helps ultimately save teams money and keep players in the fold.  Ironically Scot said something like this not long ago.   Personally I think they should have given him a generous offer at the beginning of 2017.  According to Mike Jones if they did so then versus low balling him again -- a deal might have happened.  After that a convergence of bad luck weighed in -- McVay leaving and the ugliness of the Scot departure.  No doubt from that stand point some luck -- bad luck was a factor.

 

5 hours ago, KillBill26 said:

 

  Which leads me to this: later missteps aside, it's impossible to know how much that initial offering bothered Kirk.  And we don't know how much his agent was in his ear about what they perceived to be a low-ball offer.  The writing could have been on the wall by that point.

 

From what was said about the low ball offer though -- it wasn't done in a vacuum with smiles and lollipops. There was acrimony behind the scenes that went beyond the money.   I get the whole notion that hey he made a low ball offer so what -- I'd agree with that, too.  It was about all the other stuff going on at the time along with it and as to the money they doubled down on the same approach two years in a row.  If it was just doing so in 2016 according to Mike Jones it would have likely been fine. 

 

5 hours ago, KillBill26 said:

 

2.  Which leads me to my second point:  Is there any doubt that Kirk's agent played this perfectly? To get back to back tags at 44 mil, a fully guaranteed 90 million, and then have the chance to be an unrestricted free agent again at age 32, Cousins most definitely has maximized his earning potential.  

 

He did.  But my theory though is Kirk got to play mercenary because he has little reason to want to be here.  And by that I don't mean it in the way that some of Kirk's detractors explain here like he just wanted to chase the money or just didn't like the Redskins as some global feeling about the team.  Just about everyone reporting on it said it was about Bruce.  What else? Bruce?  Anything else?  How about Bruce.    And by Bruce again it wasn't purely the low ball offers but the behind the scenes stuff that came along with it.  I've elaborated plenty as to what that stuff was.

 

5 hours ago, KillBill26 said:

  So my reaction to the whole contract situation is to give cousins agent credit more than to blame Allen.  And part of me feels this would've played out this way even if Allen didn't make those later missteps, but we will never know one way or another.  The Redskins only choices were:(1) ridiculously overpay to get a LTD, or (2) watch him walk.  In that light, I think they made the correct decision, and I don't blame Bruce for it.  I credit the agent.

  

I disagree on this part.  They misplayed the contract even Scot admitted they made mistakes when he was here.  Then according to some of the beat guys covering the story they tried the vinegar as opposed to honey approach with Kirk behind the scenes -- and that made Kirk less interested in staying and by that i am not purely talking about the money.  

 

Having said all of that, I enjoyed your post.  Lot of moving parts, detail --grey area discussion, nuance -- good stuff.  The one thing I am glad about Kirk going is wow is the subject polarizing with the fan base and I think that's filtered into Alex Smith discussion -- where you are either all in or all out -- no nuance, no happy mediums. It's not the case with everyone but it does seem the case with some people   Yeah we can like a player but not like every thing about them.  For example, I can think Alex has a good two years left in him not sure about after that -- and that doesn't secretly mean I hate the dude and I am not all in.    As for Kirk, I've said on this thread multiple times, he's on the spot, I have more faith in him than some on this thread but you got me on him too -- I think he will be successful but will see.  Kirk and Alex have some vocal critics and they both have opportunities to shut them up.  Should be a fun watch.

[SWFLSkins]

 

[SWFLSkins]

 

[Dancing Bear]

On 7/17/2018 at 1:41 PM, MassSkinsFan said:

Enough Kirk versus Alex talk - let's bring back Rex Grossman!!!

 

 

Just kidding.

 

Welcome Alex! We have confidence in you. Go out there and win.

[wit33]

On 7/17/2018 at 5:52 PM, MisterPinstripe said:

Different sport. In the NBA one guy can take a team to the Finals, NFL you can't do that so you can't compare the two leagues and player movement.

 

Who cares about championships, it’s about money and using the open market to hold teams hostage. 

 

Another example being the Steelers and Bell. The Steelers offered him the largest RB contract in the league, but Bell and group know that a team with dollars in open market will overpay for his services. 

 

I guess the player wins because he got the most money for himself. I get it, just sucks as a fan. I’ll adjust and still follow though. 

 

[BurgundyMalaise]

I just hope he finds a way to chill out on the rhetorical "right?" after his press conference questions lol.

 

Small thing but damn that annoys me when people do that

[Califan007 The Constipated]

43 minutes ago, MondayNightCowboyKilla89 said:

I just hope he finds a way to chill out on the rhetorical "right?" after his press conference questions lol.

 

Small thing but damn that annoys me when people do that

 

I know, right?...

[SWFLSkins]

 

A good read and fair analysis. Though If one guy wants to be here, you don't have much choice but to pick that guy....lol

[SWFLSkins]

 

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

8 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

Who cares about championships, it’s about money and using the open market to hold teams hostage. 

 

Another example being the Steelers and Bell. The Steelers offered him the largest RB contract in the league, but Bell and group know that a team with dollars in open market will overpay for his services. 

 

I guess the player wins because he got the most money for himself. I get it, just sucks as a fan. I’ll adjust and still follow though. 

 

It will be interesting to see how "Those" teams fair with the big cap hit acquisitions. 49'rs & Vikings who play each other will be fun to watch. See how long teams can make the $$ work

[JoeJacobyHOForRIOT]

Jordan Reed is going to be the key to Alex Smith's success this season. A healthy Reed alongside Vernon Davis would be lethal. If Reed gets hurt again i don't have the confidence in WR's to carry the load.

[SWFLSkins]

23 minutes ago, JoeJacobyHOForRIOT said:

Jordan Reed is going to be the key to Alex Smith's success this season. A healthy Reed alongside Vernon Davis would be lethal. If Reed gets hurt again i don't have the confidence in WR's to carry the load.

 

I don't agree. Now if you lose Chris Thompson along with Reed, you got a point. Remember Guice can catch as well. I think Alex develops a thing for Richardson. Most Seattle fans saying he was on the cusp and is going to surprise us, Doc poised to breakout as well. Crowder, he is going to do whatever he can to elevate his value. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

37 minutes ago, JoeJacobyHOForRIOT said:

Jordan Reed is going to be the key to Alex Smith's success this season. A healthy Reed alongside Vernon Davis would be lethal. If Reed gets hurt again i don't have the confidence in WR's to carry the load.

 

I'm hoping that we see major steps from Sprinkle too. Certainly he can't do what Reed does, but I'd like to see him become more of a weapon in the passing game. With Davis aging and Reed almost a lock to miss some games, he may be relied upon at some point this year. 

 

The one thing he probably already does better than both vets in front of him is block. If he can become a reliable pass catcher, he has a shot to be the most well-rounded TE on the team by 2019. 

[JoeJacobyHOForRIOT]

57 minutes ago, SWFLSkins said:

 

I don't agree. Now if you lose Chris Thompson along with Reed, you got a point. Remember Guice can catch as well. I think Alex develops a thing for Richardson. Most Seattle fans saying he was on the cusp and is going to surprise us, Doc poised to breakout as well. Crowder, he is going to do whatever he can to elevate his value. 

I hear what you are saying i just feel like when you look at Alex Smith's history he has always favored his Tight Ends (Kelce in KC and Vernon Davis SF) . I feel like he is the kind of QB who excels when he has that stud go to TE and it opens everything else up. The Homer in me says if Reed is healthy we could be a top 10 passing team this year. The Pessimist in me says losing Reed with be a domino effect that are questionable WR core wouldn't be able to make up for.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, SWFLSkins said:

 

I don't agree. Now if you lose Chris Thompson along with Reed, you got a point. Remember Guice can catch as well. I think Alex develops a thing for Richardson. Most Seattle fans saying he was on the cusp and is going to surprise us, Doc poised to breakout as well. Crowder, he is going to do whatever he can to elevate his value. 

 

I think I am a combination of these two points.  Thompson and Reed are super stars.  But both are often injured unfortunately.  I'd say they are the biggest wildcards of the season.   If those two are healthy than in my view the Redskins supporting cast at least is in the ball park of what the Chiefs had -- so if that happens = big season IMO.  That doesn't happen = mediocre season.

 

For me I can't recall a season where my feeling is if the team were a stock the beta number would be this big -- the variance in my mind about the season is big.  If all breaks right, I can see them go 11-5 and have the best season of Dan's tenure.  But the odd thing to me about this team is so many key players are injury prone hence the variance in my mind.  I wouldn't be shocked if they go 11-5 and likewise I wouldn't be shocked if they go 7-9.

 

And within the fan base also the variance seems to be high.  Some think we are loaded and Alex is an upgrade and everything will be work out great.  Others see a team going the other way.  Some are in between.   Ditto the media -- some think this is one of the worst teams in the NFL, some mediocre, some think its an underrated up and comer.  I just can't recall this much variance before the season ever.

 

And the pressure is ramped up.  Jay is supposedly on the spot.  Bruce supposedly, too.  The Alex versus Kirk stuff.  Is this the last stand of Jordan Reed.  Doctson?  On and on and on.  Should be a wild season from that stand point.  And the reason why I think the pressure is on is I am not so sure everyone survives a mediocre season, some say they won't even survive a slow start -- and heck if it all goes north in a good way than you got some vindication for people who have been maligned.  Can't wait to see it all play out.

 

[SWFLSkins]

15 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 I wouldn't be shocked if they go 11-5 and likewise I wouldn't be shocked if they go 7-9.

 

15 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 Can't wait to see it all play out.

 

 

One hundo %. Nothing shocks me anymore, lol.