Bill Callahan and the Offensive Line

[NewCliche21]

1 hour ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

We run too many concepts, and Jay won't commit to running the ball.  And he's not good at teaching the run game.

 

MShanny understood the importance of a two-yard run.  Jay doesn't grasp that concept.  

 

I ask this genuinely:  What makes you think that?  McVay was calling the plays, so I'm not sure that's accurate. I'm not saying you're wrong, just want to hear your reasoning.

[RandyHolt]

I think Chase will do fine. Seeing the Bleacher Report would have Shanahan drooling, that's for sure.

 

It seems like everyone we have tried at center, has met reasonable expectation. LeRib did fine when forced into duty, despite not being a center, and is doing good down in New Orleans from what I read. Long same thing, a guy pushed to center - has held his own. Next man up, it's Chase.

 

To me, the center doesn't HAVE to be the one calling out pickups. Kirk has done it.  He just needs to hold his point, and have clean snaps. And potentially I suppose, double up on Lauvao's man. That may be our new run play base - double the guy on LG and design a play from there.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

29 minutes ago, NewCliche21 said:

I ask this genuinely:  What makes you think that?  McVay was calling the plays, so I'm not sure that's accurate. I'm not saying you're wrong, just want to hear your reasoning.

I'm too lazy to look it up, but I think Jay's stats as a career OC would lead you to believe that he tends to lean more on the passing game.  

 

It's not a total knock on Jay.  I think every OC/HC has their areas of expertise.  Jay's passing offense and WR development/production can't be ignored.  He schemes guys open.  But I think his preference (my perceived preference) for the passing game makes it so tempting to abandon the running game when we struggle early on.  

 

And I understand the concept of "it's on the players to execute" mentality, but teaching matters.  If you give ten coaches the same play with the same players, some coaches will get better execution.  I know Bill Callahan is a stud OL coach, so the amount of missed assignments we have leads me to believe their is some confusion schematically.  

 

Or, Callahan could suck and our OL could be overrated.  I just think that's a a bit of a knee jerk reaction. 

[wilco_holland]

I don't really care if the average per run is low. Getting 3 yards can be important and fine, but the main issue for me is that we can't get does 3 yards when we need them. When you are in the redzone or have a third and short...you need to be able to run the ball and grab that easy score/first down. Right now I feel we get to the point you might say:''Ey guys this is third and short (2 yards), let's run a pass play''. Because the odds of completing a pass in that situation might be higher then complete a freaking 2 yard run. (I tryed to do the numbers, but my head exploded).

[wilco_holland]

1 hour ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

I ask this genuinely:  What makes you think that?  McVay was calling the plays, so I'm not sure that's accurate. I'm not saying you're wrong, just want to hear your reasoning.

 

I looked it up!

 

2011 O-coordinator Cincy

20th in Passing Attempts

20th in Passing Yards

10th in Rushing Attempts

19th in Rushing Yards

 

2012 O-coordinator Cincy

19th in Passing Attempts

17th in Passing Yards

17th in Rushing Attempts

18th in Rushing Yards

 

2013  O-coordinator Cincy

12th in Passing Attempts

8th in Passing Yards

8th in Rushing Attempts

18th in Rushing Yards

 

2014 Washington HC

18th in Passing Attempts

11th in Passing Yards

21th in Rushing Attempts

19th in Rushing Yards

 

2015 Washington HC

20th in Passing Attempts

11th in Passing Yards

14th in Rushing Attempts

20th in Rushing Yards

 

2016 Washington HC

7th in Passing Attempts

2nd in Passing Yards

27th in Rushing Attempts

21th in Rushing Yards

 

The numbers look like Jay might be kinda commited to running the ball...but never had really great succes in running it. You do see that his passing game is higly effective. His position in pasing attempts is pretty low against the yards he gets from the attempts. So he passing game gets above average yard per pass. Running game looks to be the other way around. He keeps pounding but never gets really good results. 

[OVCChairman]

I'd imagine having Marvin Lewis as your HC helped him 'decide' he was going to dedicate to the run, as he seems like a trenches kind of guy to me.  

 

While in DC he's ranked 21st, 14th, 27th in rushing attempts... this while we were under the impression they employed a platoon style play calling system.  Jay would say 'run' or 'pass,' then the corresponding coordinator (say that 4 times fast) would select a play from the sheet, and McVay would then relay it into the QB.. WAAAYYY too many moving parts IMHO, but that's a different thread.  These numbers would lead me to believe that @AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy may be onto something with the early abandonment.  Other factors come into play though.. playing from behind, defensive scheme, etc... but those generally don't skew numbers to where we're in the bottom 12 in 2 / 3 of the seasons he's the top dog around here. 

[bedlamVR]

I kind of thought the same as Wilco - but did not have the numbers to hand. I think Jay totally grasp the concept and importance of the 2-yard run. What is interesting is he also has a tendency to utilize his RB/HB in the passing game a lot more (think Barnard with the Bengals) I think Thompson is going to be a huge part of this offense but to make that work then the defense cannot simply think pass everytime they see 25 in the backfield (as they did with MS - Thompson and Brandon banks) he has to as an OC make defenses  respect the run. 

 

What is interesting is Coach Gibbs is often thought of as a run first coach - But he was from the Air Coyell (sp) tree - He wanted to air it out all the time -  and was one of the first coaches to have a team with three recievers with over 1000 yards and a RB with over 1000 yards rushing in a single season. (I am thinking 1989) 

 

Perception is reality with a weak stomach 

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, wilco_holland said:

 

I looked it up!

 

2011 O-coordinator Cincy

20th in Passing Attempts

20th in Passing Yards

10th in Rushing Attempts

19th in Rushing Yards

 

2012 O-coordinator Cincy

19th in Passing Attempts

17th in Passing Yards

17th in Rushing Attempts

18th in Rushing Yards

 

2013  O-coordinator Cincy

12th in Passing Attempts

8th in Passing Yards

8th in Rushing Attempts

18th in Rushing Yards

 

2014 Washington HC

18th in Passing Attempts

11th in Passing Yards

21th in Rushing Attempts

19th in Rushing Yards

 

2015 Washington HC

20th in Passing Attempts

11th in Passing Yards

14th in Rushing Attempts

20th in Rushing Yards

 

2016 Washington HC

7th in Passing Attempts

2nd in Passing Yards

27th in Rushing Attempts

21th in Rushing Yards

 

The numbers look like Jay might be kinda commited to running the ball...but never had really great succes in running it. You do see that his passing game is higly effective. His position in pasing attempts is pretty low against the yards he gets from the attempts. So he passing game gets above average yard per pass. Running game looks to be the other way around. He keeps pounding but never gets really good results. 

Interesting that last year (with McVay calling the O), was the best showing from the run game (in terms of average vs attempts).  Also interesting that forcing the run (the two times his team was top 10 in attempts), were the two worst results.  

 

Of course, I'm leery of putting too much weight on these for numerous reasons, but it certainly looks like striving for a more balanced approach leads to solid running (breaking even ranking-wise) and better than average passing.  

[MassSkinsFan]

14 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

I can't imagine Long being out for two weeks is going to help us much. At least we'll see what we have in Roullier. Maybe we'll get a Taylor-like miracle.

 

I think it's going to help a lot. Roullier starting is what we need. 

 

My hunch is that since Kirk is comfortable with Long, and since Roullier is a rook, in Gruden's mind there's a 0% chance of making Roullier the starter even if he is marginally better than Long. But, if he is better than Long as a rookie, just imagine how he would improve over the course of the year if he played regularly.

 

I hope this is his week. I also hope he can win and hold the starting C spot.

 

Not only would that address Long's inadequacies at Center, they'd also help us at LG because then we'd have our replacement for Lauvao (Long).

 

Hail.

4 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

OK you heard it here first (in case it happens) Chase ends up at LG. Get yer best 5 onto the field.

 

Long to LG - Chase is a C. Don't bust his chops by putting him at G... 

 

Chase and Scherff (the real one, not the preseason 2017 one) together? Ooooh man!!!

[Koolblue13]

Oh, don't get me wrong. If somehow out 7th round Center with zero impressive film to show, suddenly blows up and looks like a good starting professional in the next two preseason games, I'll be ecstatic. 

 

But I doubt that happens and if anything our entire Offense is now going to suffer.

[MassSkinsFan]

12 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Oh, don't get me wrong. If somehow out 7th round Center with zero impressive film to show, suddenly blows up and looks like a good starting professional in the next two preseason games, I'll be ecstatic. 

 

But I doubt that happens and if anything our entire Offense is now going to suffer.

 

Zero impressive film? I haven't seen anything from the preseason but I did see some impressive film from his college career. I think I'm being (possibly too) optimistic, based on what I've seen on film, and you're being pessimistic based on... film?

[Master Blaster]

4 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

I think Chase will do fine. Seeing the Bleacher Report would have Shanahan drooling, that's for sure.

 

It seems like everyone we have tried at center, has met reasonable expectation. LeRib did fine when forced into duty, despite not being a center, and is doing good down in New Orleans from what I read. Long same thing, a guy pushed to center - has held his own. Next man up, it's Chase.

 

To me, the center doesn't HAVE to be the one calling out pickups. Kirk has done it.  He just needs to hold his point, and have clean snaps. And potentially I suppose, double up on Lauvao's man. That may be our new run play base - double the guy on LG and design a play from there.

 

 

Great since one of the main running plays is "DUO," which features doubles everywhere. 

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, MassSkinsFan said:

 

Zero impressive film? I haven't seen anything from the preseason but I did see some impressive film from his college career. I think I'm being (possibly too) optimistic, based on what I've seen on film, and you're being pessimistic based on... film?

I remember we all watched the film when he was drafted and everyone came away laughing at such bad highlight film .

 

Obviously that means nothing. Film and all. Point is that he is a 7th rounder for a reason. If he is even mildly close to competent, it's a home run right now, but let's pump the brakes here.

 

Know what's a great way to start appreciating a starter that people have soured on? Have a 7th round rookie replace him. 

[RandyHolt]

Finlay Article on "Mangold may not make sense" 

 

"If the team truly believes Long should not miss any regular season action, Mangold is probably not a fit. At 33-years-old with an impressive resume, Mangold likely doesn't want to come back just to be a backup, and Gruden has repeatedly talked about Long's ability and potential in the middle of the line. "

 

Edit: wait... middle of the line?  I assume that includes LG

 

Hey JP good up the great work!

[Riggo'sRangers]

Roullier has almost the exact same measurables as Travis Fredrick.  It's really strange how similar their numbers are.  Here's an article that seems convinced he will start in the NFL. It reads as if blocking is natural for Chase. We shall see, but I hope he gets a real shot.  It is always a wonderful gift to get lower round contributions.  Hail

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/draft-pff-scouting-report-chase-roullier-cg-wyomng

[MassSkinsFan]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

I remember we all watched the film when he was drafted and everyone came away laughing at such bad highlight film .

 

Obviously that means nothing. Film and all. Point is that he is a 7th rounder for a reason. If he is even mildly close to competent, it's a home run right now, but let's pump the brakes here.

 

Know what's a great way to start appreciating a starter that people have soured on? Have a 7th round rookie replace him. 

 

I agree with that last sentiment, 100%. Too bad we didn't apply the same logic when Ribs outplayed Licht in 15. Ugh. I'm still bitter about that one.

 

But, I posted some positive feedback based on looking at Roullier's film. I just don't remember other people saying they thought he was awful based on film (though I do remember a lot of negative opinion not based on film).

 

BTW he's a sixth rounder. That doesn't change what you're saying though. 

 

Here's to him surprising us. 

[TSO]

9 hours ago, CTskin said:

I'm a big Gruden fan, but I can't remember a regime that has driven us so crazy with the Compton/Grant/Luavao stuff.

 

Really? Are we talking about ES here?  

 

Warning: incoming mega post because this topic intrigues the heck out of me  

 

Gibbs/Williams with Rabach, Brunell, Phil Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Ade Jimoh, Warrick Holdman, Todd Wade, Jason Fabini and probably more I'm missing. 

 

Zorn with Demetric Evans, Rabach, Randle El, Jason Fabini, Leigh Torrence, arguably Jason Campbell towards the end, Phil Daniels and more for sure that I can't remember. 

 

Shanny with Rabach, Lichtensteiger, Grossman, Will Montgomery, Chester, Josh Wilson, Tyler Polumbus, Madeiu Williams, etc... 

 

And don't forget both Kedric Golston and Reed Doughty who were constant targets here all throughout the entire tenure of all the above regimes as well as Gruden's where almost every snap they got was condemned.  

 

What I've learned throughout all this is that, while most of the time we're (somewhat) right that the player is a weak link and needs to be replaced, we're damn near always wrong about believing that the coaches are idiots and don't know that themselves. That there actually IS a replacement who's an upgrade on the roster and they're just inexplicably holding them back. 

 

We often find that the replacement or backup we love here is even worse. Hence, why that weak link who is starting or playing significant snaps has been able to hold onto their jobs. Surprise surprise, the staff that sees these players infinitely more than we do had their reasons, as frustrating as it is to accept. 

 

There's an appeal there for us fans to having the hope that an answer is just sitting right there, waiting to play more. 

 

Sometimes it is what it is. We suck at that position. The best player we have at that spot is actually the guy starting, and he's just not that good, but those behind him aren't ready yet or are even worse. 

 

Some of the names above, like Polumbus, Montgomery, Josh Wilson and Chester would even go elsewhere, start on their respective teams, and play relatively well, even on championship/contending teams. 

 

As for Gruden, I'll give my thoughts on Lauvao and Compton... I get frustrated just like anyone else here about their play. On the surface, and as a fan, how can we not? But I try not to assume the coaches are just that idiotic and don't see it. Sometimes loyalty comes into play and they don't want to move on from a guy, but I think that's certainly rarer than we assume. Players know players, and coaches know they can lose a locker room fast if they go that route. 

 

So I paid close attention to Kuandjio last season when he'd play whether in the preseason or during the season, wanting to see if he was a legitimate replacement for Lauvao. Same goes for Spaight. 

 

With Kuandjio, I was very unimpressed with him during the preseason last year. The blog entries I made back then detailed it all. Which was a big disappointment because a lot of us were hoping, even assuming, he'd step up and take the job from Lauvao. When he got the start to replace an injured Lauvao against the Browns last season, I posted that I was worried based on his preseason play.

 

Fortunately, he had a solid performance. Had one really bad series, a few other bad plays sprinkled throughout, but the rest was good. Better than Lauvao usually performs? No, not really. And who knows what would've happened had he kept playing with opponents getting more tape on him. He got another start later in the year, and I believe he played okay there, but I can't remember as I didn't hone in on him. Either way, from what I saw I definitely couldn't say there was a discernible difference between Lauvao and Kuandjio. And now look, dude is playing on the third string team all TC/Preseason. 

 

As for Spaight, he had an awesome preseason last year. Which only created more anxiousness within all of us to see him play over Compton. When Compton got hurt and he was going to get the start against the Panthers, it was to the point that we simply assumed he'd be an upgrade, just keep his job afterwards and that was that. 

 

But he was borderline terrible against the Panthers. I know it's unfair to judge him off of his first start, essentially. He, like Compton, was playing behind an absolute woeful Dline. And maybe he wasn't as prepared as he should've been. I don't know. But it was bad. He certainly didn't do any better than Compton. 

 

So... those are just two recent examples of players sitting behind poorly performing starters who we assume will do better, and they don't.

 

Now, I get the very real possibility that those type of players would eventually do better as they gain more experience, but I also think that we can't assume such given the evidence, and that it's much more likely that the coaches see something we're not seeing in why certain players are starting over others, as badly as they'll be playing at the time. I believe it's just an indication of a weak spot on the roster than it is of a coach just being stubborn or overly loyal. 

 

I mean, at least the majority of the time. I'm not saying that doesn't happen. In fact, that's why it's so important to have a well-structured FO where coaches, who can be more emotional, too loyal, and short-sighted, shouldn't have too much power in personnel decisions. I just believe it doesn't happen anywhere remotely close to as much as we think. 

[TSO]

2 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

I remember we all watched the film when he was drafted and everyone came away laughing at such bad highlight film .

 

 

It wasn't a highlight film. He didn't have one, lol. That's what we were laughing at. 

 

It was basically clips of him from one or two consecutive games someone put together. 

 

PCS posted that video in the "Welcome To" thread. There just was nothing else out there on YouTube. I believe it was even a couple games from his junior or sophomore year, I can't remember, over two years ago or something. But it wasn't anything remotely close to "film" that meant anything or to judge him off of.  

 

But I agree with you, it's hard to believe he'll somehow be an improvement over Long, or even equal. It's unfair actually to expect that out of him. 

[MassSkinsFan]

23 minutes ago, thesubmittedone said:

But I agree with you, it's hard to believe he'll somehow be an improvement over Long, or even equal. It's unfair actually to expect that out of him. 

 

Why is it unfair to believe he could do as well as Long? I know he's a rookie. I also know he didn't have a highlight reel how many decent, not superb, OL do coming into the draft?). He's #2 at center on our depth chart. If he were really that bad, wouldn't he be #3? He's already earned the #2 job as a rook, why couldn't he perform as well as #1? If he were truly a huge risk at C, I'd think there would be mitigation to put someone into the C role who could avoid any huge problems. There are people available.

 

That said, this is a lot of pressure for a rookie. Let's hope he responds well to it.

 

On another note, I have a bit of a crazy theory, as a former center:

 

I think Gruden, who played QB, may be putting too much emphasis on chemistry between QB and C. I won't deny that it's good for them to like each other and be a high-functioning unit. That's a given. But, I think that given two Cs where one is demonstrably a bit better than the other, Gruden would go with the weaker guy if the QB liked him better (whether that has to do with personality, mechanics of the snap, center's cologne, etc...). I have absolutely no evidence of this. Just a hunch. Does this belong in the Conspiracy Thread? 

 

Hail.

[TSO]

Just now, MassSkinsFan said:

 

Why is it unfair to believe he could do as well as Long? I know he's a rookie. I also know he didn't have a highlight reel (neither did Scherff but how many decent, not superb, OL do coming into the draft?). He's #2 at center on our depth chart. If he were really that bad, wouldn't he be #3? He's already earned the #2 job as a rook, why couldn't he perform as well as #1? If he were truly a huge risk at C, I'd think there would be mitigation to put someone into the C role who could avoid any huge problems. There are people available.

 

Well, I was the one who said the lack of a highlight reel meant nothing, so I'm with ya there. 

 

But I think you listed why it's unfair. He's a rookie. He's playing at a position that is notoriously difficult to grasp quickly since it requires a mastery of the offense, an offense he's been in for what? 4 months? 

 

But you're right. He quickly made his way up the depth chart. Jay and Callahan seem to be super high on him. So I certainly hope he surpasses expectations and does great. 

 

I'm just saying I think it's unfair for people to assume he will and that it won't be an indictment on him as a player if he struggles, you know? It's not exactly an easy situation.  

[freakofthesouth]

8 hours ago, wilco_holland said:

The numbers look like Jay might be kinda commited to running the ball...but never had really great succes in running it. You do see that his passing game is higly effective. His position in pasing attempts is pretty low against the yards he gets from the attempts. So he passing game gets above average yard per pass. Running game looks to be the other way around. He keeps pounding but never gets really good results. 

 

Interesting info here to sort of see how Gruden has historically called his offense... good to see evidence of him game-planning to run the football.

 

I think for his first couple of years in Cincy he really didn't have a backfield that was very good; it wasn't until Geovanni Bernard in 2013 that the rushing attack improved, but even then, he was more of a satellite back for them.

[joeken24]

So full disclosure....I'm originally from Cincinnati. So I'm extremely familiar with Jay Gruden. He likes big WRs, big lineman, a scat back and a power runner on his offense (much like the rest of the league). In my opinion, the problem with big lineman is the inability to get to their point of attack in the zone scheme. Especially when we zone block in the short game where defenders are shooting the gaps.

 

Cincinnati normally runs power blocking with their big back and zone with their scat back. They obviously mix it up a bit. But, maybe that's the issue with us. I saw a few plays in short yard situations where Kelly got caught up (to allow a pulling TE or a G to get to there assignment).  Absolute BS!!! 

 

I say do what you do best.....pass, screen, draw and take the occasional "shot" to keep 'em honest. In the short down and distance, use power to move the chains. Hell, go I-formation with an extra lineman if you have to!! Stop trying to fool people!! Do your job!!! Convert the 3rd/4th and inches and score the short yardage TD for god's sake!!! Jeez!

 

But, the Patriot are 0-2 in the preseason and they lost to freaking Blake Bortles and the Jaguars, so I'll stay calm.

 

We'll see.....

 

[Koolblue13]

6 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

It wasn't a highlight film. He didn't have one, lol. That's what we were laughing at. 

 

It was basically clips of him from one or two consecutive games someone put together. 

 

PCS posted that video in the "Welcome To" thread. There just was nothing else out there on YouTube. I believe it was even a couple games from his junior or sophomore year, I can't remember, over two years ago or something. But it wasn't anything remotely close to "film" that meant anything or to judge him off of.  

 

But I agree with you, it's hard to believe he'll somehow be an improvement over Long, or even equal. It's unfair actually to expect that out of him. 

Oh yeah, I'm speaking with a loooot of jest about his "film" 

 

Still the point stands and it's pretty funny, but hey, fingers crossed we luck out. He has looked really good.

[DC Lumber Co.]

My take on a couple topics/themes posted here.

 

1. Chase Roullier: The fact that Gruden/Callahan didn't flinch when plugging him in as our only backup center on the roster is high praise for a rookie (let alone a 6th rounder). It raised an eyebrow for me early on that Roullier had no true competition for the job, but his play in the preseason has lived up to the hype.

 

What is holding him back from unseating Long I think, is how much emphasis Gruden puts on making all the line calls. Similar to the situation with Compton on defense though...at some point if the difference in talent is clearly big enough wouldn't it make sense to roll with the better player thinking that the plays he makes over the incumbent would make up for any of the calls he misses pre-snap? Also, you'd have to think the players offensive/defensive call-skills would improve at a faster rate while playing as a starter as well. 

 

FWIW, I'm not ready to hand the starting job to Chase as much as im hoping he does just to have Long as an additional option to compete for the LG spot. This was my last season giving Luavao the benefit of the doubt, hoping he was finally healthy or something... But the dude just isn't working.

 

2. More on the guard play: Arie being relegated to 3rd string is very telling. And its been for two consecutive weeks now, so we know it wasnt just to see what we had in the UDFA guards. Looks like Kalis is further along than Catalina at this point, and wonder if Catalina is best suited for time on the PS. Didnt an analyst come out and predict Kalis would make the 53 shortly after he was signed iirc? Kalis is getting the most push in the run game out of any of our guards it seems fwiw.

 

I'm not overly concerned with our line right now. Especially at tackle. Trent & Moses can crush in both power and zone. It starts and ends with the interior. If the running game gaffs continue into the regular season I hope we arent afraid to try some different players/combos at LG/C. Im hoping its mostly communication and scheming issues in the preseason, but I have little faith its anything but talent in the case of Luavao.

 

 

[Riggo'sRangers]

8 hours ago, DC Lumber Co. said:

. Didnt an analyst come out and predict Kalis would make the 53 shortly after he was signed iirc? Kalis is getting the most push in the run game out of any of our guards it seems fwiw.

"Kyle Kalis is the one major UDFA signing of note. He's a tough, nasty blocker with a nice degree of athleticism. I could see Kalis making the roster as a backup." - Draft Analyst, 5/10/17.  It's actually a pretty good write up.  By what I've see so far it is pretty spot on.  Hail

http://draftanalyst.com/grading-draft-washington-redskins