The (only!) official ES all things Kirk Cousins should we shouldn't we off-season thread.

[PartyPosse]

4 minutes ago, petedaddy said:

 

AJ Green makes up for a lot, not sure you can really just dismiss him like he's just any old WR1

 

I'm not, but in terms of a supporting cast outside of him it's pretty sad. 

 

To give you an idea, last season the Redskins had 5 players with 583 receiving yards or more. In the three seasons that Gruden was OC in Cincy, the team had a collective 4 players with more yards than that receiving outside of Green. Now obviously that could be play-calling or it could be lack of talent, who knows? But I do know if you look at some of the names that have been there, I see a lot of guys who were expected to thrive but never did (Gresham, Hawkins, Shipley, Tate...)

7 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

Yeah, you're the Cousins expert that isn't fooled by yardage, TD's, first downs, completion percentage, QBRs, wins, comebacks and the distraction the rest of us find beguiling.  Tells us again why we can't believe our lying eyes.

 

What does that have to do with Cincy's supporting cast? At no point did Dalton have a collective group like Garcon, Jackson, Reed, Crowder. This has nothing to do with Cousins, this has to do with the way the team was built. Whatever your lying eyes wants to see doesn't change that. 

 

[Wildbunny]

Affirmation: Kirk is not Elite QB.

Question 1: Define Elite QB.

Question 2: Do you need an Elite QB to win the Superbowl?

Question 3: Where will Kirk stands in QB ranks when Roethlisberger, Rodgers, Brees and Brady will have retired in 2/3 years?

 

I always have a good laugh when I read that Kirk isn't even a Top 15 QB. Then, I always wonder who are those 15 guys better than him. I'll probably be able to argue against half those names. Now, if he's Top 10. In 2/3 years he'll be Top 5 (because improving, because guys retiring). Then you'll be glad to have him over more than 20 guys in this league.

[Morneblade]

Just in case everyone forgot how easy it is to find a good QB in this league, and why we should hold on to them when we get them.

2016	Kirk Cousins (16)
2015	Kirk Cousins (16)
2014	Robert Griffin III (7) / Kirk Cousins (5) / Colt McCoy (4)
2013	Robert Griffin III (13) / Kirk Cousins (3)
2012	Robert Griffin III (15) / Kirk Cousins (1)
2011	Rex Grossman (13) / John Beck (3)
2010	Donovan McNabb (13) / Rex Grossman (3)
2009	Jason Campbell (16)
2008	Jason Campbell (16)
2007	Jason Campbell (13) / Todd Collins (3)
2006	Mark Brunell (9) / Jason Campbell (7)
2005	Mark Brunell (15) / Patrick Ramsey (1)
2004	Mark Brunell (9) / Patrick Ramsey (7)
2003	Patrick Ramsey (11) / Tim Hasselbeck (5)
2002	Shane Matthews (7) / Patrick Ramsey (5) / Danny Wuerffel (4)
2001	Tony Banks (14) / Jeff George (2)
2000	Brad Johnson (11) / Jeff George (5)
1999	Brad Johnson (16)
1998	Trent Green (14) / Gus Frerotte (2)
1997	Gus Frerotte (13) / Jeff Hostetler (3)
1996	Gus Frerotte (16)
1995	Gus Frerotte (11) / Heath Shuler (5)
1994	Heath Shuler (8) / John Friesz (4) / Gus Frerotte (4)
1993	Mark Rypien (10) / Rich Gannon (4) / Cary Conklin (2)
1992	Mark Rypien (16)
1991	Mark Rypien (16)
1990	Mark Rypien (10) / Stan Humphries (5) / Jeff Rutledge (1)
1989	Mark Rypien (14) / Doug Williams (2)
1988	Doug Williams (10) / Mark Rypien (6)
1987	Jay Schroeder (10) / Ed Rubbert (3) / Doug Williams (2)
1986	Jay Schroeder (16)
1985	Joe Theismann (11) / Jay Schroeder (5)
1984	Joe Theismann (16)
1983	Joe Theismann (16)
1982	Joe Theismann (9)
1981	Joe Theismann (16)
1980	Joe Theismann (15) / Mike Kruczek (1)
1979	Joe Theismann (16)
1978	Joe Theismann (14) / Billy Kilmer (2)
1977	Billy Kilmer (8) / Joe Theismann (6)

[PartyPosse]

3 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

Affirmation: Kirk is not Elite QB.

Question 1: Define Elite QB.

Question 2: Do you need an Elite QB to win the Superbowl?

Question 3: Where will Kirk stands in QB ranks when Roethlisberger, Rodgers, Brees and Brady will have retired in 2/3 years?

 

I always have a good laugh when I read that Kirk isn't even a Top 15 QB. Then, I always wonder who are those 15 guys better than him. I'll probably be able to argue against half those names. Now, if he's Top 10. In 2/3 years he'll be Top 5 (because improving, because guys retiring). Then you'll be glad to have him over more than 20 guys in this league.

For every one previously elite QB that retires (Manning) you get two or possible three more that move into conversation (Winston, Mariota, Prescott, Wentz - I know, different years, but still).

 

Also, don't think Rodgers is retiring anytime soon. Neither Brady for that matter.

[Wildbunny]

6 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

For every one previously elite QB that retires (Manning) you get two or possible three more that move into conversation (Winston, Mariota, Prescott, Wentz - I know, different years, but still).

 

Also, don't think Rodgers is retiring anytime soon. Neither Brady for that matter.

2 of them still have a real long way to go.

 

2/3 years isn't anytime soon. Brady will be 42/43, Rodgers 35/36. This thing can be quick at time.

[wit33]

Can careless where he ranks, just hope to see him do more elite type things:

 

manipulate the pocket, run when opportunities exist, create plays in and outside the pocket (at opportune times, don't need these to be a part of his game necessarily), give WRs opportunities at 50/50 balls, more back shoulder throws, improve on last year's red zone numbers (not all his fault, but plays a role), improve upon time and situational awareness.

 

Please, I say this with wanting to resign and not caring where he ranks. It's what i want out of the QB for the Skins. In no way is this bashing him, as I feel he deserves to be paid and have the opportunity to lead the Skins for years to come. 

 

The elite and ranking stuff is whatever, just want him to continue to improve. With that said, if he doesn't improve, I think the Skins will still be solid and have a chance to win. 

 

Lets get a deal done, please!

[PartyPosse]

2 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

2 of them still have a real long way to go.

 

2/3 years isn't anytime soon. Brady will be 42/43, Rodgers 35/36. This thing can be quick at time.

I just meant move into the conversation of belonging in the top 10, not to elite status. 

 

Brady also claims to want to play to 45, which sounds ridiculous until you consider he's been healthy and continues to put up elite numbers. Wouldn't surprise me to see him play another 5-6 years. 

 

Rodgers at 35 is still young. 

 

There will also be a boatload of potentially elite QBs coming into the NFL next year. Obviously it's all speculation but in terms of what's still out there, what just came to the NFL and what's on the horizon for the NFL in terms of quality QB play, I personally don't think Cousins will ever be a top 5 QB in this league. He may. I can't predict the future and I certainly would have no problems eating crow if he does (unless it's for another team, then he can go **** himself lol). 

[petedaddy]

34 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I'm not, but in terms of a supporting cast outside of him it's pretty sad. 

 

To give you an idea, last season the Redskins had 5 players with 583 receiving yards or more. In the three seasons that Gruden was OC in Cincy, the team had a collective 4 players with more yards than that receiving outside of Green. Now obviously that could be play-calling or it could be lack of talent, who knows? But I do know if you look at some of the names that have been there, I see a lot of guys who were expected to thrive but never did (Gresham, Hawkins, Shipley, Tate...)

 

What does that have to do with Cincy's supporting cast? At no point did Dalton have a collective group like Garcon, Jackson, Reed, Crowder. This has nothing to do with Cousins, this has to do with the way the team was built. Whatever your lying eyes wants to see doesn't change that. 

 

 

Well then that begs the question what would Kirk have done in Cincy with those guys?

 

I'd have to really think about it, but my first blush is that I would trade Garcon + Jackson for AJ Green

 

I think you're not giving Kirk enough credit, but I know you're not as high on him as I am.  If Crowder was drafted in Cincy, would he just be a punt return guy with 15 catches a season with Dalton?  

 

some of the other receivers like sanu, hawkins, and marvin jones have had success on other teams too

 

It feels like you're trying to give the credit to the receivers and not to kirk, and that i don't agree with at all

 

 

[Why am I Mr. Pink?]

When deciding what to pay Cousins, what does it matter whether he is top 10 or top 15? 

 

I think deciding what Cousins should paid should be based off what QBs are available to us. Glennon got 3/45/18.5 ....

 

----------------------------------------------------

 

Colin Kaepernick	QB	29	SF	TBD	Market Value
Jay Cutler	QB	33	CHI	TBD	-
Ryan Fitzpatrick	QB	34	NYJ	TBD	Market Value
Robert Griffin III	QB	27	CLE	TBD	-
Chase Daniel	QB	30	PHI	TBD	-
Case Keenum	QB	29	LA	TBD	-
Shaun Hill	QB	37	MIN	TBD	-
Matt McGloin	QB	27	OAK	TBD	-
Blaine Gabbert	QB	27	SF	TBD	-
Mark Sanchez	QB	30	DAL	TBD	-
Dan Orlovsky	QB	33	DET	TBD	-
Christian Ponder	QB	29	SF	TBD	-
Thaddeus Lewis	QB	29	SF	TBD	-
T.J. Yates	QB	29	MIA	TBD	-
Ryan Nassib	QB	27	NYG	TBD	-
David Fales	QB	26	CHI	TBD	-
Bruce Gradkowski	QB	34	PIT	TBD	-
Austin Davis	QB	27	DEN	TBD	-
Charlie Whitehurst	QB	34	CLE	TBD

[PartyPosse]

4 minutes ago, petedaddy said:

 

Well then that begs the question what would Kirk have done in Cincy with those guys?

 

I'd have to really think about it, but my first blush is that I would trade Garcon + Jackson for AJ Green

 

I think you're not giving Kirk enough credit, but I know you're not as high on him as I am.  If Crowder was drafted in Cincy, would he just be a punt return guy with 15 catches a season with Dalton?  

 

some of the other receivers like sanu, hawkins, and marvin jones have had success on other teams too

 

It feels like you're trying to give the credit to the receivers and not to kirk, and that i don't agree with at all

 

 

It's not a question of credit, it's a question of the talent there. Cousins did his job in distributing the ball around very well. I won't deny that. 

 

In terms of Sanu, Jones and Hawkins, Both Mohammed and Marvin were only there for one season with Gruden (2012, neither played all that much as rookies), Hawkins had one decent season with Cleveland but has been non-existent really in the last couple years probably due to the ****show that is Cleveland. 

 

I too would trade PG and DJ for Green, but that's not really how it works in football. Even if you did negate Green with those two in terms of depth, you're still sitting on Jordan Reed, Crowder and, to an extent, Vernon Davis. Not too shabby. 

[HOF44]

2 hours ago, bowhunter said:

Devils advocate response.: So Wade Phillips=Joe Barry?

 

 

No and Im mainly taking head coaches.  You hitch yourself to a hall of fame or SB caliber QB and you're a "great" coach. There are a couple of exceptions, the main one being Gibbs. You can't be incompetent, but in the end great coaching with mostly average players fails.  I don't believe the opposite to be true. 

[petedaddy]

9 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

It's not a question of credit, it's a question of the talent there. Cousins did his job in distributing the ball around very well. I won't deny that. 

 

In terms of Sanu, Jones and Hawkins, Both Mohammed and Marvin were only there for one season with Gruden (2012, neither played all that much as rookies), Hawkins had one decent season with Cleveland but has been non-existent really in the last couple years probably due to the ****show that is Cleveland. 

 

I too would trade PG and DJ for Green, but that's not really how it works in football. Even if you did negate Green with those two in terms of depth, you're still sitting on Jordan Reed, Crowder and, to an extent, Vernon Davis. Not too shabby. 

 

Sanu and Marvin Jones were there 2012 and 2013

 

I don't see the receiving talent on the roster in 2016 so head and shoulders above the 2013 Bengals of AJ Green, Marvin Jones, Mohamed Sanu, Andrew Hawkins, Jermaine Gresham, and Tyler Eifert (his rookie season, but still a first round talent)

 

You're also leaving out Gio Bernard who was one of the biggest threats receiving vs stone hands Robert Kelley

[wit33]

I watched a game between the Skins and Bengals and saw no real difference between both QBs playing in that game. Sure, other factors exist, but just watching it certainly didn't appear the Skins had an edge at the QB position. I was actually surprised at how well Dalton improvised in that game.

 

I think both are in same territory. 

[PartyPosse]

6 minutes ago, petedaddy said:

 

Sanu and Marvin Jones were there 2012 and 2013

 

I don't see the receiving talent on the roster in 2016 so head and shoulders above the 2013 Bengals of AJ Green, Marvin Jones, Mohamed Sanu, Andrew Hawkins, Jermaine Gresham, and Tyler Eifert (his rookie season, but still a first round talent)

 

You're also leaving out Gio Bernard who was one of the biggest threats receiving vs stone hands Robert Kelley

Sorry, I meant Sanu and Jones were rookies in 2012 and didn't play much where as they were bigger parts in 2013.

 

2013 and 2016 were close in terms of talent wash. However, the original point was Cousins had a far inferior surrounding cast.

 

Bernard was a great weapon for Dalton but I also didn't mention Thomspon as a key contributor either.

[onedrop]

5 minutes ago, wit33 said:

I watched a game between the Skins and Bengals and saw no real difference between both QBs playing in that game. Sure, other factors exist, but just watching it certainly didn't appear the Skins had an edge at the QB position. I was actually surprised at how well Dalton improvised in that game.

 

I think both are in same territory. 

which game, when and where?

[jjpomeroy]

2 minutes ago, wit33 said:

I watched a game between the Skins and Bengals and saw no real difference between both QBs playing in that game. Sure, other factors exist, but just watching it certainly didn't appear the Skins had an edge at the QB position. I was actually surprised at how well Dalton improvised in that game.

 

I think both are in same territory. 

 

Other factors?  How about the god awful Skins defense?  

 

I am a 58 year old distance runner and could have thrown for 300+ yards against our defense (at least on 3rd downs).  Maybe an exaggeration, but you can't negate the impact of our defense.  Also, as pointed out many times before - the inability of the Skins defense to get three and outs put our offense at a huge disadvantage in both field position and time with the ball.

[petedaddy]

7 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

Sorry, I meant Sanu and Jones were rookies in 2012 and didn't play much where as they were bigger parts in 2013.

 

2013 and 2016 were close in terms of talent wash. However, the original point was Cousins had a far inferior surrounding cast.

 

Bernard was a great weapon for Dalton but I also didn't mention Thomspon as a key contributor either.

 

and your original point was that Dalton hadn't had much to work with outside of AJ Green, I was just clarifying that

 

i also think it can't be repeated enough how head and shoulders above everyone else listed AJ Green is

[PartyPosse]

1 minute ago, petedaddy said:

 

and your original point was that Dalton hadn't had much to work with outside of AJ Green, I was just clarifying that

 

i also think it can't be repeated enough how head and shoulders above everyone else listed AJ Green is

Dalton had Green and a bunch of #3 receivers IMO. Never had a legit competent #2 at any point. I would put both Garcon and Desean as low-end #1 but would just as much call them both high-end #2 (it's really a matter of definition). Reed, there is no doubt is an elite TE in the top 3 in the NFL (when healthy of course). 

 

Regarding Green, yeah, he, Jones and Brown are the top of the class in terms of Receivers IMO. 

[wit33]

8 minutes ago, jjpomeroy said:

 

Other factors?  How about the god awful Skins defense?  

 

I am a 58 year old distance runner and could have thrown for 300+ yards against our defense (at least on 3rd downs).  Maybe an exaggeration, but you can't negate the impact of our defense.  Also, as pointed out many times before - the inability of the Skins defense to get three and outs put our offense at a huge disadvantage in both field position and time with the ball.

 

It looked like two average teams playing that day. No real advantages that I could see. Just my opinion though 

[Veryoldschool]

1 hour ago, PartyPosse said:

For every one previously elite QB that retires (Manning) you get two or possible three more that move into conversation (Winston, Mariota, Prescott, Wentz - I know, different years, but still).

 

Also, don't think Rodgers is retiring anytime soon. Neither Brady for that matter.

 

Winston, Mariota, Prescott and Wentz are in the conversation of who is an elite QB?  I don't find you credible when you are nitpicking Cousins now I find your views absurd.

 

 Cousins has at least put up elite stats for a couple of seasons whereas these other guys?  Prescott plays behind a great line with a tremendous running game.   think he'd be running for his life if he played on the Skins.  The other guys?  They didn't bust like like Griffin and may become good but mentioning them in a discussion about an All Pro QB  like Cousins is silly at this point.

[PartyPosse]

2 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

Winston, Mariota, Prescott and Wentz are in the conversation of who is an elite QB?  I don't find you credible when you are nitpicking Cousins now I find your views absurd.

 

 Cousins has at least put up elite stats for a couple of seasons whereas these other guys?  Prescott plays behind a great line with a tremendous running game.   think he'd be running for his life if he played on the Skins.  The other guys?  They didn't bust like like Griffin and may become good but mentioning them in a discussion about an All Pro QB  like Cousins is silly at this point.

IF you read the rest of the conversation after, I clarified that they could move into the conversation at some point that they could potentially be top 10 QBs in the NFL, not that they are elite. 

[CTskin]

1 hour ago, Wildbunny said:

Question 2: Do you need an Elite QB to win the Superbowl?

 

I always have a good laugh when I read that Kirk isn't even a Top 15 QB. Then, I always wonder who are those 15 guys better than him. I'll probably be able to argue against half those names. Now, if he's Top 10. In 2/3 years he'll be Top 5 (because improving, because guys retiring). Then you'll be glad to have him over more than 20 guys in this league.

In response to question 2- No, he's not. Once a decade or so, maybe even less frequent than that, a team with a below average defense wins the Super Bowl. Those freak teams are led by an elite, #1-3 kind of QB. Kirk is good, but certainly isn't that, so until we sure up the defense, there'll be no ring talk. I love his stats as much as the next guy, but his head worries me. He's 29 years old and lacks composure on the big stage. Even looking back at his big MSU games, this flaw is a constant. For every well-played big game, he had two poor ones. So, it doesn't give me a whole lot of optimism that he'd be able to string together three or four good ones to make a playoff run.

 

The above paragraph felt pretty negative, but I still want him signed as he's certainly better than half the starters in the league. If he stays in the Gruden system, he'll be considered top 10 in the coming years. But remember, for every retiring Peyton, there's a young buck Carr/Mariota/Winston climbing the ladder.

[Morneblade]

2 hours ago, wit33 said:

I watched a game between the Skins and Bengals and saw no real difference between both QBs playing in that game. Sure, other factors exist, but just watching it certainly didn't appear the Skins had an edge at the QB position. I was actually surprised at how well Dalton improvised in that game.

 

I think both are in same territory. 

 

Here's a big difference. Cincy had a top 10 defense. Redskins had a really bad defense. So if the guy going against a top 10 D looks as good as a guy going against our trash, he's a better player.

[elkabong82]

11 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Do I think the reporters are just making this stuff up?  Not at all.  I bet their sources are telling them what they are reporting.  

 

Here's what Jones said yesterday.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/football-insider/wp/2017/03/21/making-sense-of-the-redskins-free-agent-signings-thus-far/?utm_term=.1cf5ae539eab

They have a talented quarterback, but don’t want to pay him what he’s worth, and he’s not budging either, so they probably need to find another guy. Good luck with that. It took all this time to find Kirk Cousins, and they still don’t fully appreciate him.

 

 

Agreed on all. I don't think many reporters outright make stuff up, though some do and have even been called on it. But I do think a healthy portion run with speculation that confirms what they WANT to be true. I think Al Galdi called them out recently for doing this too when a bunch of the Kirk stuff flew back in their faces. Unfortunately for us the big local paper enjoys the **** of negative takes and will ramp up the negative speculation and many fans bite.

 

You can hear speculation that Kirk inquired about a trade and you can take that and speculate if it means Cousins doesn't want to be here, you can then speculate it's because the team is dysfunctional, and then by doing so you confirm your bias/what you want to be true. In rality, it was simply that Kirk asked if the team was just planning on a trade, Kirk has been ok with staying or going if situation is right. And that's it. But you can see how the speculation train is conveniently used by reporters to fit in the line with their beliefs and/or agendas. And it becomes a vicious cycle at times where reporters base their speculation of the specualtion of others and it can take them to ridiculous points. This happens in many aspects of life, so much so that they turned into dangerous events (Salem, Red Scare). So while I don't think most reporters make stuff up I do very much believe that they run with speculation to fit their on going narrative and at times they do get irresonsible with it, hence why really I don't believe any of them about Kirk right now. Nobody was really reliable during Von Miller stuff either. Only ones I trust are direct statements from team and Kirk, and a select few twitter insiders. 

49 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

Here's a big difference. Cincy had a top 10 defense. Redskins had a really bad defense. So if the guy going against a top 10 D looks as good as a guy going against our trash, he's a better player.

 

Add to that: Cincy had a better run game than us, their QB has been starting for 6 seasons in a fairly consistent offensive scheme, and they had better red zone targets. Despite all that, Kirk had a much better game statistically than Dalton.

[ThomasRoane]

1 hour ago, Morneblade said:

 

Here's a big difference. Cincy had a top 10 defense. Redskins had a really bad defense. So if the guy going against a top 10 D looks as good as a guy going against our trash, he's a better player.

Your response is WWE vicious!  Well played Sir.