How on earth did the Shanahans (outside of the 7 game win streak in '12) suck so bad in DC?

[ixcuincle]

Shanahan finished last in 3 out of his four years here. The coaching didn't have the talent to compete. They were starting John Beck FFS.

 

By the time they lucked into the QB lottery and got Cousins it was too late for them to take advantage.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Snyder hired three name "capital C" NFL coaching legends when he owned the team - Marty, Gibbs, Shanahan. He also hired one college legend.

 

And in all four cases - which was wildly misunderstood at the time because everyone thought Dan was a meddler - he gave them entirely too much freedom and let them perform weird experiments on the team.

 

Marty gutted them team down to the foundation and tried to win with Tony Banks and one audible. Gibbs was given an unlimited budget and exceeded it. Spurrier tried to recreate his college teams and prove everyone wrong about everything related to the NFL. And Shanahan was trying to invent the modern NFL we see with Hurts and Jackson almost on an impromptu basis while also trying to be Bill Parcells in 1986.

 

I think I figured it out once but during the prime RGIII era, the team had something like 15 draft picks and like 1/8th of the cap invested in the QB position. They basically were trying to do what the Eagles are currently doing except the Eagles have blue chip talent at every position on offense and a powerlifting QB on a rookie deal. The Skins had all the money and picks tied up in a waif of a QB.

 

The Shanahan era is just bizarre because they took offensive football ten years into the future in less than a month almost out of pure spite. The entire time, Mike really just wanted to have Cousins run play action and half boots.  

[Mr. Sinister]

16 hours ago, SkinsHokieFan said:

And lets take Dan out of the equation since he is off limits in this forum. 

 

The coaching staff Mike brought in is looking like one of the best of all time, rivaling what Bill Walsh had.

 

You have Kyle Shanahan, Sean McVay, Mike McDaniels, Matt LaFleur on that staff

 

Kyle went to the SB in year 3 

Sean immediatley turned around the Rams

Matt has been to the NFC title game and is looking like he will be ok post Rodgers 

and Mike McDaniels looks like he is a combination of Gibbs, Walsh and Andy Reid.

 

These guys were all on this staff at the same time from '10-'13, yet only won 6, 5, 10 (and were 3-6) and 3 games! 

 

Even with all of the organizational issues, it boggles my mind the record was so bad here in Washington 

 

Mike Shanahan was the HC and defacto GM, and was largely washed post-John Elway. Plus, Dan Snyder

 

It was never going to work, especially when you claim you need a "5 year plan." 

[ixcuincle]

I hear all the time about how that team had so many good coaches, or how Snyder was the GM and undercut Shanahan with Bruce Allen, and other such "conspiracy theories". I don't buy any of it.

 

McVay, Shanahan Jr, LaFleur and McDaniel were all on that staff, true.

 

It can also be true that the team lacked talent. I mean for his first 2 years he put out Rex Grossman. They never finished above last place, he though that he was a genius and that he could put John Beck in, promoted the guy like crazy, guess what, he doesn't do anything. Didn't they lose to the Bills IN Toronto under Beck. They were forgettable. Then again once they finally get a good generational prospect in RG3 Shanahan...[b]lets him play again in a playoff game despite his leg being ****ed up[/b]. Then RG3, all in for week one, starts him his last year, last place, fired.

 

People try to spin so much on how Shanahan was good here. He wasn't. They try to say that he didn't want McNabb. He certainly didn't want Haynesworth. But if he was so good, why didn't he do anything here? His best things he did here, draft Alfred Morris, draft Cousins /& RG3, and sign a good staff of assistant coaches. I'll give him that.

 

At the end of the day we needed a hardass to drive the ship and drop some discipline. In theory that would be Shanahan. But it failed because he just couldn't win games. He was given some **** talent, true. Nobody will deny that. Maybe Allen did undercut him and put McNabb in his lap. But when he had the CHOICE of starting talent, the results are very mixed. I could try to write off the first 2 years, but year 4 really did it. After that year you had in 2012, how do you drop that far back? There was no way he was saving his job after that. That for once and for all proved he couldn't win without Elway. He didn't do it in Denver, and he couldn't do it here. He was a mid coach.

[FootballZombie]

On 9/25/2023 at 9:46 PM, Conn said:

(he famously scouted players by their highlight videos because he believed he could coach the best out of them and bring them to their peak performance/production at all times)

 

I did not know that....

 

Add in an inflated sense of importance surrounding 40 times and dude would fit right in around here.

[Coopskin44]

Not to defend but the day before free agency we were hit with a $35 million cap hit thanks to O’mara and the nfl.That killed us!

[Riggo#44]

3 hours ago, Coopskin44 said:

Not to defend but the day before free agency we were hit with a $35 million cap hit thanks to O’mara and the nfl.That killed us!

 

History has shown that was Snyder and Allen being their standard arrogantly incompetent selves. The league supposedly told them not to do it, but they didn't anyway and got the result. It's still bull**** and Mara still sucks hot holy ass for it, but that's more on the Dynamic Dip****s.

[XxSpearheadxX]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say Ol Danny boy was the catalyst for most things failure related. And some of Mike Shannahans ego also. 

[BringMetheHeadofBruceAllen]

On 9/25/2023 at 10:25 PM, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

Another way to answer…

 

 

Oh.My.God.

 

What in the h-e-double-hockey-sticks is that?? It better be in the '30 for 30' documentary that eventually comes out about the Snyder Era.

 

What a dweeb...

[Riggo-toni]

On 9/25/2023 at 9:27 PM, SkinsHokieFan said:

And lets take Dan out of the equation since he is off limits in this forum. 

 

The coaching staff Mike brought in is looking like one of the best of all time, rivaling what Bill Walsh had.

Uh, no. He hired Haslett and then forced him to convert to a 3-4 even though our D was solidly built for a 4-3. More to the point, he took full control over personnel. Remember, even with Elway, Lobsterman couldn't win a playoff game before he got Terrell Davis, and then he only won 1 playoff game after those 2 retired. All those offensive geniuses went to places with excellent GMs...Brucifer was brought in as Shannon's lackey (yes he was hired first, but that was at Shanahan's suggestion, meaning the Prince of Dimness owed him his job). Shanahan was awfully mediocre as GM in Denver, and given how his assistant coach won a SB there after he left, it's altogether possible he would have been even worse at it without Kubiak. Remember, this is the guy who thought John Beck was the best QB prospect in his class, and went into the season with Rex and Beck as his QBs.

We should have left him in retirement, hired a real GM, and hired the other Shanahan instead, but Lord Farquaad was incapable of understanding how a competent FO works.

[skinsfan66]

19 minutes ago, Riggo-toni said:

Uh, no. He hired Haslett and then forced him to convert to a 3-4 even though our D was solidly built for a 4-3. More to the point, he took full control over personnel. Remember, even with Elway, Lobsterman couldn't win a playoff game before he got Terrell Davis, and then he only won 1 playoff game after those 2 retired. All those offensive geniuses went to places with excellent GMs...Brucifer was brought in as Shannon's lackey (yes he was hired first, but that was at Shanahan's suggestion, meaning the Prince of Dimness owed him his job). Shanahan was awfully mediocre as GM in Denver, and given how his assistant coach won a SB there after he left, it's altogether possible he would have been even worse at it without Kubiak. Remember, this is the guy who thought John Beck was the best QB prospect in his class, and went into the season with Rex and Beck as his QBs.

We should have left him in retirement, hired a real GM, and hired the other Shanahan instead, but Lord Farquaad was incapable of understanding how a competent FO works.

Kyle blew the SB bowl win for Atlanta against the Patriots too.  

[PlayAction]

I don't remember the exact cost of these trades but RG3 was 3 firsts and a second.  McNabb was 2 seconds?  The draft picks were also high in the round.  We had the 35 million salary cap fine.  None of those trades or fines were his fault but they handicapped the team.  Shanny inherited a bloated payroll.  It is his fault for demanding that the star free agent DT change from the 3 tech in the 4:3 defense to nose tackle in the 3:4.  

[BringMetheHeadofBruceAllen]

With Belichick turning back into a pumpkin since Brady left we can see that many good coaches struggled without a good QB:

 

Chuck Noll from 83-91...no Bradshaw

Landry from 1980-88...no Staubach

Marv Levy without Jim Kelly

George Seifert without Young or Montana

 

Madden without Stabler

Don Coryell without Dan Fouts

Paul Brown without Otto Graham

Lombardi without Starr (ok that was only his one year here...but since it doesn't fit my hypothesis I'm going to conveniently ignore it.)

[Warhead36]

38 minutes ago, BringMetheHeadofBruceAllen said:

With Belichick turning back into a pumpkin since Brady left we can see that many good coaches struggled without a good QB:

 

Chuck Noll from 83-91...no Bradshaw

Landry from 1980-88...no Staubach

Marv Levy without Jim Kelly

George Seifert without Young or Montana

 

Madden without Stabler

Don Coryell without Dan Fouts

Paul Brown without Otto Graham

Lombardi without Starr (ok that was only his one year here...but since it doesn't fit my hypothesis I'm going to conveniently ignore it.)

I actually think Bellicheck being roughly around .500 since Brady left is a testament to how good he is. Just about any other coach would plummet to ~5 win territory after losing the literal GOAT. 

 

But your general premise is correct. Without the QB you got no shot.

[Riggo#44]

12 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Without the QB you got no shot.

 

Save for Joe Gibbs 

[Warhead36]

21 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

Save for Joe Gibbs 

Gibbs had real good QBs. None of em were HOF-ers on their own, but he essentially had the career of a HOF QB divided into three different guys across his first tenure. I mean Theismann won a league MVP. 

[Riggo-toni]

Gibbs had a HoF GM who put together the 72 Dolphins, was a scout for SB champion Chiefs, and got the Chargers to their only SB. Beathard officially has only 4 rings because he left before 91 season, but he put together the core of that team as well.

[Riggo#44]

9 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

9 hours ago, Riggo#44 said:

Joe Gibbs 

Gibbs had real good QBs.

He had mediocre QBs, surrounded by incredible talent. Theismann was the only one who was actually good.

[Redwards]

On 9/26/2023 at 11:23 AM, Redd said:

Talent. The team has a bad habit of overrating below and average players. 
 

Those coaches learned what not to do after making mistakes here.😑

 

Organization has a problem for going after former great older coaches instead of taking risks on younger coaches with modern ideas.

Absolutely correct.

 

With the HOG now in place, I believe the part in bold is about to change.  At least, I hope so.  I'm terrified - not scared - terrified of any more years of Ron & Co. after this one.  I actually want us to consistently compete for championships (not mere playoff spots) again in my lifetime.  We're never getting there with the current crew.  

[SkinsFTW]

16 hours ago, Riggo#44 said:

He had mediocre QBs, surrounded by incredible talent. Theismann was the only one who was actually good.

And Theismann wasn't good for long. He was basically done after that SB loss, average in 84 and bad in 85. They went 12-4 with Jay Schroeder. That OL was elite. Almost any QB in the league would have looked good behind it then add Riggins/Monk and they should have been in a couple more SBs with an actual good QB. Imagine the 84-86 Redskins with Marino or even Dave Kreig.

 

 

Back to the topic though. Shanahan hadn't won a thing since Elway and Davis. I was one of the few around here against the hire, in reality it didn't matter who was hired. But he's in the HOF by now if not for Doofus Dan.

[c slag]

In the beginning it kinda looked like the McNabb-Shanahan pairing was going to work out with a couple early season wins 

 But then later in the season it fell apart and we kinda went into the next year not knowing whom was going to be at QB 

So they replaced McNabb with Grossman 

 Back in those times they would have interviews with the assistant coaches on that TV show Redskins Nation,  I think it was called, with Larry Michael the old radio announcer 

 

[Riggo#44]

6 hours ago, SkinsFTW said:

Imagine the 84-86 Redskins with Marino or even Dave Kreig.

I often wonder "what if" we lost Super Bowl 17, draft Marino instead of Green. Not that I'm complaining, but Gibbs might be Belicheck.

[Redwards]

10 hours ago, SkinsFTW said:

And Theismann wasn't good for long. He was basically done after that SB loss, average in 84 and bad in 85. They went 12-4 with Jay Schroeder. That OL was elite. Almost any QB in the league would have looked good behind it then add Riggins/Monk and they should have been in a couple more SBs with an actual good QB. Imagine the 84-86 Redskins with Marino or even Dave Kreig.

 

 

Back to the topic though. Shanahan hadn't won a thing since Elway and Davis. I was one of the few around here against the hire, in reality it didn't matter who was hired. But he's in the HOF by now if not for Doofus Dan.

One of the interesting things in that era that didn't develop, has me drooling every time I think about it: John Elway was a gnat's eyelash away from the Broncos trading him to the Skins.  They nixed it at the last minute.  I remember watching an interview with Joe Gibbs years and years ago talking about this.  

 

Can you imagine Joe Gibbs with John Elway playing behind center for him?  We'd have eclipsed the 49ers as the team of the decade by a mile.  We would have been unstoppable.  

Edited September 29, 2023 by Redwards

[Warhead36]

4 hours ago, Riggo#44 said:

I often wonder "what if" we lost Super Bowl 17, draft Marino instead of Green. Not that I'm complaining, but Gibbs might be Belicheck.

We probably go toe to toe with the 49ers as the dynasty of the 80s, but its tough to give up a ring in hand.

[Riggo-toni]

6 hours ago, Riggo#44 said:

I often wonder "what if" we lost Super Bowl 17, draft Marino instead of Green. Not that I'm complaining, but Gibbs might be Belicheck.

I'd rather have won the SB and traded up a couple spots. Better still, make a mega trade for an additional first and take both.

At one point we had Doug Williams, Mark Rypien, and Stan Humphries on the roster at the same time.  Gibbs traded Humphries to Beathard for a 4th wasted on a punter who got cut in camp, while Stan took SD to the SB. The mid 90s might not have been so bleek if we held on to Humphries instead of drafting Heath Stupider...but knowing Norvo the Clown he probably would have cut him like he cut Wychek, Rich Gannon, and Keenan McCardell when he got here.