2023 Offseason Mini Camp, OTA’s, Training Camp Discussion Thread: Hallelujah, Josh Harris & Co. Era Edition

[Skinsinparadise]

13 minutes ago, philibusters said:

 

To a certain extent analytics are just stats.   But they are stats that try to factor in context and be more predictive of the future than simple stats.   For example a relative simple stat for QB's is passer rating whereas a popular one in analytics is EPA per drop back which accounts for things like sacks and down and distance  For example, in EPA completing a 7 yard pass on 3rd and 6th is worth more than completing a 12 yard pass on 3rd and 20.

 

Sure.  As you mentioned the idea though is they go deeper than the basics.

 

Stats like yards and yards per attempt have been around forever.    

 

The idea of PFF, Football Outsiders, etc is to go deeper.  How how much time did the QB had to throw the ball, how accurate was the throw, how deep or short, drops, garbage time versus non, etc.  They throw a full soup of stats to give a fuller and more detailed picture.

 

As for how good or not they are at it is a different debate.  But the advent of Sharp, Football Outsiders, PFF, wasn't about citing the basic numbers that were readily avaialble for the last 40 years or so ago.

 

How much does Ron value or understand this stuff?  Not sure.  For example Ron cited Dyami Brown's contested catch score with PFF as a reason for drafting him.  But actually from what i recall it was a mediocre score, 40% or so, nothing hot.   Dyami had other things going for him, but it wasn't contested catches as his highlight attribute.  I had Ron's back then so I let it go.  But now the gloves are off. 

 

According to Fortier when Ron gets into a conversation about anayltics he lends to citing basic stats like yards-YPC, so his impression is its the old school numbers that he majors in.  Another reporter forgetting whom had the same impression from discussions with Ron.

 

When Ron mentioned he studied the anayltics himself to evaluate Wentz, he didn't give a single example of what that meant as to the numbers.

 

I didn't give him a hard time for when he missed that the team was eliminated after the Browns game.  But when you throw that in the soup with everything else, he doesn't seem like a dude well versed in anayltics, numbers.  

 

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

7 minutes ago, bowhunter said:

This is where it gets hard to separate Ron the roster GM from Ron the coach. We really don't know what RR the Coach would be like if he had a good O-line and a QB.

Perhaps he would turn the passing game WFO if it seemed unstoppable. I'm not opposed to keeping RR the coach if he finds a way to win with the roster at hand, but I'm perfectly fine with removing him from roster building decisions down the road. Every victory this year is much more of a testament to coaching than it is having the best team on the field.

 

I am much more into Ron the coach than the FO guy.  

 

But I don't think i'd want him as the coach either.  But I wouldn't hate the idea. 

 

I do hate the idea of having him as the mastermind of building this roster.  I don't think he's awful at it.  But IMO he's hopelessly mediocre with a lack of a killer instinct or innovation.

[bowhunter]

Agree @Skinsinparadise and it's really hard to separate the two. RR the coach has to Coach in a certain way because he has a very limited roster (due to lack of foresight and urgency by the FO.)

[wit33]

People who’ve played Madden over last 30 years have been using analytics before Brad Pitt did so. 
 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, bowhunter said:

Agree @Skinsinparadise and it's really hard to separate the two. RR the coach has to Coach in a certain way because he has a very limited roster (due to lack of foresight and urgency by the FO.)

 

I don't think its hard to seperate whether you like how a coach coaches versus the FO.  I get your point tha the FO guy limits the coach, perhaps in this case.

 

But at the same time when you got Logan Paulsen who actually works for the team more or less politely saying that Daboll--Martindale outschemed Rivera with lesser talent and with the season on the line in their matchups, it registers as not too crazy.

 

I think Rivera is a solid, average coach.    Most national rankers put him somewhere near the bottom, and I do think that's harsh.

 

I sort of like him as a head coach, don't love him.  And as for the FO, I think he's so so.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[oraphus]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I don't think its hard to seperate whether you like how a coach coaches versus the FO.  I get your point tha the FO guy limits the coach, perhaps in this case.

 

But at the same time when you got Logan Paulsen who actually works for the team more or less politely saying that Daboll--Martindale outschemed Rivera with lesser talent and with the season on the line in their matchups, it registers as not too crazy.

 

I think Rivera is a solid, average coach.    Most national rankers put him somewhere near the bottom, and I do think that's harsh.

 

I sort of like him as a head coach, don't love him.  And as for the FO, I think he's so so.

Rivera is a nice guy but not a good coach..  he is pretty much bottom of the barrel. I don't even consider him a coach.. he is not an Xs and Os guy.. he is more of a facilitator who lets all the coaches under him make decisions. Probably a pretty good trait for a coach and a boss, but in football he is so hands off that it takes him way too long to understand that things aren't working.

So then you say.. well no, Ron is more of a GM - yet he fails horribly as a GM as well. Poor hires.. brought it the same Carolina staff that failed miserably there, just to 'surprise, surprise' fail again here. Poor drafting and FAs have been nothing special. He is about as unimaginative, old school, half brained, meat head coach you can ask for.   

Him getting fired can't come soon enough!  I Hope Harris can see that sooner than later. 

[Conn]

31 minutes ago, oraphus said:

Rivera is a nice guy but not a good coach..  he is pretty much bottom of the barrel. I don't even consider him a coach.. he is not an Xs and Os guy.. he is more of a facilitator who lets all the coaches under him make decisions. Probably a pretty good trait for a coach and a boss, but in football he is so hands off that it takes him way too long to understand that things aren't working.

So then you say.. well no, Ron is more of a GM - yet he fails horribly as a GM as well. Poor hires.. brought it the same Carolina staff that failed miserably there, just to 'surprise, surprise' fail again here. Poor drafting and FAs have been nothing special. He is about as unimaginative, old school, half brained, meat head coach you can ask for.   

Him getting fired can't come soon enough!  I Hope Harris can see that sooner than later. 

Don’t hold back man, you might leave some people unsure of where you stand if you can’t be more clear 

[KDawg]

I understand we're in the "I hate Rivera" phase of his tenure, but I can't **** on the guy. Sorry. I hate a lot of his moves and strategies, too. 

 

But just in case anyone here forgot... the man navigated this flaming turd ship during the end of the Snyder era, went through the whole name change sheboggle and then sat in limbo while Snyder was playing hide and go seek on his yacht (allegedly) towards the end of the ownership.

 

Rivera, to me, will always gain my appreciation for not letting the flaming turd ship sink.

 

It's time to move on from him as a GM and as a coach if we aren't successful this year... and our OL doesn't seem like it's going to allow for a ton of success...

 

But I will never take away what that man guided this thing through. Ever.

Edited August 2, 2023 by KDawg

[oraphus]

1 hour ago, Conn said:

Don’t hold back man, you might leave some people unsure of where you stand if you can’t be more clear 

I hear he likes to kick puppies as well... just a rumor though. 

[SkinsFTW]

6 hours ago, bowhunter said:

RR the coach has to Coach in a certain way because he has a very limited roster (due to lack of foresight and urgency by the FO.)

 

So he has to coach in a certain way because of his own lack of foresight and urgency, yep, exactly. 

 

It's funny too when you listen to his statements during the season every year. Like last year he said things would be running well if we had a QB, then he said we finally got one (so did Doofus Dan) and it once again blew up in their faces, but they never ever draft one of the early QB's, and no I don't let them off the hook for drafting DL #2 overall when we had absolutely no QB at the time. They have a 5th rounder at QB now, hope it works out because that is the only dude you've drafted since you took over 4 years ago.

[Koolblue13]

I'll be happy when Rons gone and I appreciate his stewardship of the team at the end of the Snyder era. I won't speak bad of him when he retires.

 

At least it wasn't a turd like Herm Edwatds.

[SkinsFTW]

Just now, Koolblue13 said:

At least it wasn't a turd like Herm Edwatds.

 

I disagree, Herm Edwards would have been much more entertaining. Even better would have been the Rex Ryan the Foot guy. 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

12 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I actively want Charles off the roster.  He reminds me a ton of the Jay Gruden man crushes on players who couldn’t play, like Fat Rob Kelly and Luavao.  

 

Keeps getting opportunities for little to no reason. 

 

That's a good reference! It's also one of those failing to admit past draft picks just did not work out to the detriment of depth. We get the reason you (Jay Gruden or whoever) had the man crush when they were a prospect or a rookie, but this is Year 3 or 4...it's been time to call it.

[MartinC]

13 hours ago, bowhunter said:

Agree @Skinsinparadise and it's really hard to separate the two. RR the coach has to Coach in a certain way because he has a very limited roster (due to lack of foresight and urgency by the FO.)

There is talent on this roster. In some ways under Ron’s watch we have done a pretty good job building the roster into one that’s massively underrated nationally - and to some extent by us!

 

There has been a lot of draft capital put into the D and we have one of the better defensive lines and now possibly secondaries in the league. Linebacker is still an area of concern but it’s also an area you can scheme around to some extent. The D is one of the better units in the league.

 

On offense we have excellent skill position players. As a three our receivers are a very very strong position group. Running back is solid but lacks a real top tier talent, I would say the same for TE, though the team seem high on the group. 
 

O’line and QB are the huge question marks that will define the season. If you added a stud LT and legit top tier starting QB to this exact roster it’s playoff caliber. Obviously finding a legit top tier QB is easier said than done - we’ve been looking for about 30 years and counting. 

[redskinss]

Enough with the giant pity party for Christ's sake.

We haven't even played one pre season game and 3 quarters of this board is acting like we've been eliminated from the playoffs because that's what they're predicting is going to happen.

It's almost as if they're trying to will it into existence so they can say, see I told ya so.

There are very legitimate concerns with the offensive line and quarterback and yes even the coach but for crying out loud could we please give them a chance to prove us wrong before we go judge jury and executioner. 

This place really is the mob sometimes and when one person lights a torch, like a moth to a flame the torches all start coming out. 

[Chris 44]

Interestingly on yesterdays Hoffman / Paulson podcast. Paulson was talking about how the O line if it continues to progress like it has the last 2 days, it may turn out to be 

"pretty good". Stated the run installation has seemed to help in generating more communication between the line and adjusting assignments. Provided a detailed example of one play where the line really worked together. Believes that over time the unit will be better than the sum of its parts. I know this goes against the grain of most reports but it offers a glimmer of hope that maybe they are not going to be as bad as many of us think. Its not going to be great by any stretch of the imagination but perhaps not a total disaster?

[redskinss]

5 minutes ago, Chris 44 said:

Interestingly on yesterdays Hoffman / Paulson podcast. Paulson was talking about how the O line if it continues to progress like it has the last 2 days, it may turn out to be 

"pretty good". Stated the run installation has seemed to help in generating more communication between the line and adjusting assignments. Provided a detailed example of one play where the line really worked together. Believes that over time the unit will be better than the sum of its parts. I know this goes against the grain of most reports but it offers a glimmer of hope that maybe they are not going to be as bad as many of us think. Its not going to be great by any stretch of the imagination but perhaps not a total disaster?

Nope, just means our defensive line isn't as good as advertised. 

Get with the program chris!

[Chris 44]

Just now, redskinss said:

Nope, just means our defensive line isn't as good as advertised. 

Get with the program chris!

Yeah, your right, lol. I'm back on board now, back to our regularly scheduled programming.

[Koolblue13]

I'm kinda happy Charles is already injured, so we can move on from that and open a roster spot to hopefully a decent FA or one of the youngsters step up.

[HigSkin]

 

 

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, Chris 44 said:

Interestingly on yesterdays Hoffman / Paulson podcast. Paulson was talking about how the O line if it continues to progress like it has the last 2 days, it may turn out to be 

"pretty good". Stated the run installation has seemed to help in generating more communication between the line and adjusting assignments. Provided a detailed example of one play where the line really worked together. Believes that over time the unit will be better than the sum of its parts. I know this goes against the grain of most reports but it offers a glimmer of hope that maybe they are not going to be as bad as many of us think. Its not going to be great by any stretch of the imagination but perhaps not a total disaster?

 

Basically playing four guys at new spots since Cosmi has kicked inside.  Don't care if all four guys were former Pro-Bowlers, that kind of turnover takes a lot of time to iron out.  It's going to take a couple of months of work to get them totally comfortable as a unit.  And they'll have setbacks if Cosmi or Gates get hurt.

 

We know we're in for a rough start to the season on offense given the turnover situation on the line, and given Sam Howell's inexperience.  They're going to take a while to find their identity, and our D will have to lead the way I. September and October.  But we're built to be competitive deep into the year because of this D.

 

I think the ceiling for the line is higher than people realize as they view the line struggling in it's infancy.  I don't look at a line comprised of a bunch of UDFAs and seventh round picks and see only it's lack of pedigree.  I see that Cosmi and Paul have a 1.68 and 1.71 10 yard split respectively, which is 99 and 94 percentile for IOLs.  They might be the fastest guard tandem in the NFL, and they are absolutely going to be able to reach that front side IDL or ILB on outside zone.  I see Leno and Wylie as above average starting linemen that we got for major bargain contracts because they were picked 246 and undrafted, respectively.  To me, they've proven themselves at the NFL level and their lack of pedigree actually played to our advantage.  And in Gates I see a decent swing lineman who can bring some size and stability to a unit whose primary issue the past two years was a lack of stability at C.  And behind him we have two interesting options to hedge against the same kind of disastrous injuries that killed us the year before.

 

I think they'll eventually be fine once they gel.  And I think Howell will get comfortable behind them, especially as he gets better at diagnosing coverages and pressures over the course of the season.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

[HigSkin]

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[DWinzit]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

I'm kinda happy Charles is already injured, so we can move on from that and open a roster spot to hopefully a decent FA or one of the youngsters step up.

I am very happy Paul is getting more looks. I'd be happier if it was because he has outplayed Charles over Charles was injured. I healthy Charles is still going to be an asset to our team whether starter or backup.