Welcome to the Commanders Jartavius Martin S/CB Illinois Fighting Illini

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

Given that we were talking about trading up for Martin, that must mean he was ahead of Branch on the board.

[HoggLife]

13 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

Given that we were talking about trading up for Martin, that must mean he was ahead of Branch on the board.

Some had him as the #1 rated Safety.  I think of Branch was still on the board we would have still taken Quan. Now imagine the message boards after we passed up Gonzo in the 1st for another CB then passes Branch in the 2nd for Quan. People would have lost their minds. Oh my bad they did lose their minds anyways lol.

Edited May 1, 2023 by HoggLife

[Est.1974]

UDFA Kendal Smith also shows up on here.

 

 

[KDawg]

23 minutes ago, HoggLife said:

Some had him as the #1 rated Safety.  I think of Branch was still on the board we would have still taken Quan. Now imagine the message boards after we passed up Gonzo in the 1st for another CB then passes Branch in the 2nd for Quan. People would have lost their minds. Oh my bad they did lose their minds anyways lol.

People lost their minds here? I thought the reaction here was fairly measured. Some surprise, some frustration, some excitement, some indifference. But it was mostly measured. 

[XxSpearheadxX]

Having a real safety who can play nickel well is such a luxury. These days in the NFL it feels like you are always making a decision between a coverage player or  good against the run. Nice to have a natural safety who can drop into the slot and be effective. 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

On 4/29/2023 at 12:34 PM, XxSpearheadxX said:

 

 

This chart he had on there is something we should all remember:

 

Mock drafts and rankings do not matter much until you start to get to around the Senior Bowl. That's when journalists get to really talk to scouts and coaches. Everything changes from then on.

[Larry]

3 hours ago, HoggLife said:

Some had him as the #1 rated Safety.  I think of Branch was still on the board we would have still taken Quan. Now imagine the message boards after we passed up Gonzo in the 1st for another CB then passes Branch in the 2nd for Quan. People would have lost their minds. Oh my bad they did lose their minds anyways lol.

 

You new around here?   

[Going Commando]

16 hours ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

Given that we were talking about trading up for Martin, that must mean he was ahead of Branch on the board.

 

I think they probably did have Quan over Branch on their board.  I think they have a philosophy where they don't draft small defensive players, and I think they probably had Branch as being too slow to stay at corner and too small to play buffalo nickel.

 

I think Quan is being widely mis-labeled as a safety.  To me he looks like a corner with inside-outside flexibility, and the vast majority of his college snaps were at corner.  They had two good safeties at Illinois, so they didn't really play him there very much.  He's definitely got corner speed and man coverage talent, and I think he was drafted specifically to play the same role here that he did at Illinois--man cover slot speed.  I don't think that the FO believed Branch would still be able to do that role in the NFL after he ran a 4.58.

 

I really liked this pick, and along with picking Forbes and claiming Dantzler, feel that we've rebuilt the secondary and now have enough talent and speed in the group to mix our coverages better.  I think Quan will play starter's snaps if he stays healthy, because he's going to be our best option to single up on speed inside.  I absolutely love this guy's football IQ.  He gets a lot of love for his fluidity and explosive speed, deservedly, but I also think his recognition skills are elite.  This dude was targeted so much in college because teams were afraid to throw at the other guys in that secondary.  And he thrived under that pressure because he reads everything so well.  The only complaint I really have about him is that his ball skills are not that great.  Definitely a body-catcher, hands are pretty hard, and not that good at timing his plays on the ball.  But he still had three picks and a lot of PBUs because he reads things so well.  And I like that he's aggressive about playing the ball even though he can't catch.  He's gritty.

 

I think this guy is going to work out, health provided.  I think he can break the streak on our second round picks.

[skinny21]

@Going CommandoI’m a little confused about your comments about his catching - all 3 picks look like they were plucked (and quickly tucked) vs body catches… and none of them were easy catches either IMO (though I thought he made them look easy).

[Going Commando]

28 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

@Going CommandoI’m a little confused about your comments about his catching - all 3 picks look like they were plucked (and quickly tucked) vs body catches… and none of them were easy catches either IMO (though I thought he made them look easy).

 

These three INTs at the beginning of this highlight video?

 

 

The first two were gifts thrown right into his body.  The first was a backfoot underthrow placed inside against inside leverage that he basically just had to turn around for, the second was a cross-body lob thrown up into coverage as the QB got hit.  The third was his best play on the ball, but that's rare in his film.  You have to go into his cut ups to see the misplayed throws--early jumps/breaks, overrunning the route and having to paw back at the ball from the front of the catch window, drops, etc.  Those are more prevalent than you like seeing, and the picture is of an aggressive player who frequently put himself in position to play the ball, but just didn't finish.  I love him as a player, but I have to admit that I don't like his ball skills.

 

Nobody has it all, and I don't think he has many other weaknesses.  He's fast, agile, strong, aggressive, and smart.  We've been burned by second round DBs so often that it makes me hesitant to crown him, but I think he can be a special player early in his career.

[Koolblue13]

22 hours ago, HoggLife said:

. Oh my bad they did lose their minds anyways lol.

Everyone was good until Day 3

21 hours ago, KDawg said:

People lost their minds here? I thought the reaction here was fairly measured. Some surprise, some frustration, some excitement, some indifference. But it was mostly measured. 

I was pretty pissed on day 3. Felt like we really blew it and there were a lot of players that I really liked. I think Daniels was a bad pick and was pushed because of position need (which we have a video of happening) and then we chased bad money after that.

[KDawg]

3 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Everyone was good until Day 3

I was pretty pissed on day 3. Felt like we really blew it and there were a lot of players that I really liked. I think Daniels was a bad pick and was pushed because of position need (which we have a video of happening) and then we chased bad money after that.

You hid it well.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

44 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

@Going CommandoI’m a little confused about your comments about his catching - all 3 picks look like they were plucked (and quickly tucked) vs body catches… and none of them were easy catches either IMO (though I thought he made them look easy).

 

He's got a lot of almost interceptions on his tape. Including some that could have been truly amazing plays he was close to making.

 

The bad, it went through his hands. The good, not many of our DB's in the past, especially slot DB's would even have the awareness and ability to attempt that. They'd be playing catch up and trying to not commit a DPI while their backs were turned to the ball.

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxQEk0TYJSg9bCCApr3EV_Hs5dk2W34Okw

 

Here's another missed interception. I want to begin by saying this is an incredibly difficult play and would have been an all time amazing interception if he had actually caughtit. But he jumped just a liiiittttlllee early and was maybe 1 inch from getting fingertips on the ball. A slightly better time jumped and he could have grabbed it. What's remarkable about this is you can see (especially in the one of the alternate angles) every last inch of his ridiculous 44" vertical in trying to snag it.

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxrarMbRRl2W14nScrv3PiirX0JUbHbzcb

 

What I like about Martin's tape, is that even the plays he couldn't make are still an improvement over what this team has had at Nickel corner before. He didn't make the play, but he was in position to and aware enough to attempt it. That's a big difference. At a certain point luck plays into sports, and Martin is skilled enough to create situations where he could get more lucky with a ball that wasn't quite placed right by the QB. He's got talent, period.

[Est.1974]

Spielman: When you watch Martin on tape, you watch his Illinois teammate Devon Witherspoon (selected fifth overall by the Seattle Seahawks) and safety Sydney Brown too. Martin plays over the slot, he can play free safety, and he can also line outside and play corner. Weak safety class, so he has the opportunity go in and start at free safety and help them as a nickel. Huge help for the Commanders whose 60 passing touchdowns allowed in the last two seasons are tied for the most in the NFL. 

[PeterMP]

5 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxrarMbRRl2W14nScrv3PiirX0JUbHbzcb

 

What I like about Martin's tape, is that even the plays he couldn't make are still an improvement over what this team has had at Nickel corner before. He didn't make the play, but he was in position to and aware enough to attempt it. That's a big difference. At a certain point luck plays into sports, and Martin is skilled enough to create situations where he could get more lucky with a ball that wasn't quite placed right by the QB. He's got talent, period.

 

To me, this is bad corner play.  Shouldn't he have been into the WR's body trying to push him towards the sideline at least boxing him out rather than letting the guy come back into the middle and get the ball?

 

I guess it shows his athleticism, but the better play is to me is rather than turning and trying to make a play on the ball would be just to keep running with the WR and keep him pinned to the sideline and deny the catch.

 

And that seems more like instinct to me than technique.  That seems like that might be hard to coach out of somebody.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

1 minute ago, PeterMP said:

 

To me, this is bad corner play.  Shouldn't he have been into the WR's body trying to push him towards the sideline at least boxing him out rather than letting the guy come back into the middle and get the ball?

 

I guess it shows his athleticism, but the better play is to me is rather than turning and trying to make a play on the ball would be just to keep running with the WR and keep him pinned to the sideline and deny the catch.

 

And that seems more like instinct to me than technique.  That seems like that might be hard to coach out of somebody.

 

That's fair, I think he's got a play where he did what you suggested. Or maybe that was Forbes (all this corner tape blends together). It's also possible he felt like the WR could not recover after he had pinned him to the sideline and that only he could make a play on it. If so, he was obviously wrong, but I understand him thinking the WR was out of the play as he was running on the yard markings at the boundary while the ball was thrown inside. If he had taken another step before attempting the play, it's entirely possible the WR would have been better pinned while the interception could have also happened. He misread when he could peel off and jump for the interception.

 

But again, we're nitpicking a guy's almost interception. The WR he was going against was legit in Charlie Jones, who I think was drafted in the 3rd round (although maybe it was the 4th?).

 

Bobby McCain, Jimmy Moreland, etc would not have been in position to make that play and certainly could not have attempted the interception like Martin did.

 

At a certain point you draft for ability to make play, and hope guys like Martin realize he can take another step before jumping it.

[redskinss]

I knew our secondary had some problems and was wildly inconsistent but I had no idea we were tied for worst in the league in touchdowns given up over the last two years.

Makes the first two picks even better now.

 

 

Why were we so concerned about losing harris again?

Edited May 2, 2023 by redskinss

[Warhead36]

2 hours ago, redskinss said:

I knew our secondary had some problems and was wildly inconsistent but I had no idea we were tied for worst in the league in touchdowns given up over the last two years.

Makes the first two picks even better now.

 

 

Why were we so concerned about losing harris again?

Two words: William Jackson. I've never seen a bigger addition by subtraction in my life.

 

I also think the stat is inflated a bit by the murderer's row of QBs we faced in 2021. 

[PeterMP]

3 hours ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

That's fair, I think he's got a play where he did what you suggested. Or maybe that was Forbes (all this corner tape blends together). It's also possible he felt like the WR could not recover after he had pinned him to the sideline and that only he could make a play on it. If so, he was obviously wrong, but I understand him thinking the WR was out of the play as he was running on the yard markings at the boundary while the ball was thrown inside. If he had taken another step before attempting the play, it's entirely possible the WR would have been better pinned while the interception could have also happened. He misread when he could peel off and jump for the interception.

 

But again, we're nitpicking a guy's almost interception. The WR he was going against was legit in Charlie Jones, who I think was drafted in the 3rd round (although maybe it was the 4th?).

 

Bobby McCain, Jimmy Moreland, etc would not have been in position to make that play and certainly could not have attempted the interception like Martin did.

 

At a certain point you draft for ability to make play, and hope guys like Martin realize he can take another step before jumping it.

 

I will say for a 2nd round pick where you are generally expecting them to make an impact day 1, I think you can expect more than ability.  The person should have good technique, awareness, and judgement.

 

I also do not think this is really nitpicking a near interception.  He didn't even touch the ball.  And it isn't like it was a short gain or an incomplete.  Big play scoring plays are the scurge of essentially any modern NFL defense.  This the number 1 thing essentially any DC does not want to see happen.

 

He is an upgrade to McCain in coverage and I think overall.  (He can tackle and be physical.)

 

But he does have holes in his game (not saying that you said he didn't), and I think his upside has limits.

 

(Don't think he will ever make a pro bowl)

 

But yes I expect him to he better than McCain.

[skinny21]

4 hours ago, Going Commando said:

 

These three INTs at the beginning of this highlight video?

 

 

The first two were gifts thrown right into his body.  The first was a backfoot underthrow placed inside against inside leverage that he basically just had to turn around for, the second was a cross-body lob thrown up into coverage as the QB got hit.  The third was his best play on the ball, but that's rare in his film.  You have to go into his cut ups to see the misplayed throws--early jumps/breaks, overrunning the route and having to paw back at the ball from the front of the catch window, drops, etc.  Those are more prevalent than you like seeing, and the picture is of an aggressive player who frequently put himself in position to play the ball, but just didn't finish.  I love him as a player, but I have to admit that I don't like his ball skills.

 

Nobody has it all, and I don't think he has many other weaknesses.  He's fast, agile, strong, aggressive, and smart.  We've been burned by second round DBs so often that it makes me hesitant to crown him, but I think he can be a special player early in his career.

Hmm… I think we have a little disconnect here.  To be clear, I wasn’t questioning your take on his ball skills (although I hope you’re wrong, lol), or that his takeaways were a result of poor passes.  I was just confused about the body catching part since he used hands only to secure the 3 catches on there.  It’s such a minor thing in the context of what your overall point was - I probably shouldn’t have mentioned it.

 

 

It’s going to be interesting to see how they handle the corner positions, in conjunction with buffalo nickel.  For me, slot corner was probably the most glaring hole on the team pre-draft.  Heck, I might even have called it the one glaring hole, although Fuller and St Juste at least have the capability to play inside.  

Fuller, St Juste and Forbes vying for PT on the outside, possibly St Juste and Martin vying for slot corner, and then figuring out their top 3 safeties (if/when they go with 3 safeties) between Curl, Forrest, Butler and Martin.  To your point though, might make more sense to view Martin as a corner rather than a safety.

[skinny21]

3 hours ago, redskinss said:

I knew our secondary had some problems and was wildly inconsistent but I had no idea we were tied for worst in the league in touchdowns given up over the last two years.

Makes the first two picks even better now.

 

 

Why were we so concerned about losing harris again?

Agree - our secondary needed help.  As to Harris, I think it comes down to how Forrest and St Juste performed.  How much of that speaks to his tutelage though, I don’t know.

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

Two words: William Jackson. I've never seen a bigger addition by subtraction in my life.

 

I also think the stat is inflated a bit by the murderer's row of QBs we faced in 2021. 

Yeah, absolutely on both counts.

[Going Commando]

4 hours ago, PeterMP said:

 

To me, this is bad corner play.  Shouldn't he have been into the WR's body trying to push him towards the sideline at least boxing him out rather than letting the guy come back into the middle and get the ball?

 

I guess it shows his athleticism, but the better play is to me is rather than turning and trying to make a play on the ball would be just to keep running with the WR and keep him pinned to the sideline and deny the catch.

 

And that seems more like instinct to me than technique.  That seems like that might be hard to coach out of somebody.

 

Yeah it was a bad play.  You can't get beat deep for a TD when you're the corner in that kind of cover 1 look because the safety is so far away and can't realistically help you over the top.

 

Quan actually played that well, up until the ball was on its way.  You can tell he diagnosed the route off of the release, avoided the pick, got turned up field and squeezed Charlies Jones against the boundary.  He's thinking "Jones is too far outside and the ball is going to have to come back inside shoulder to stay in bounds, I'm going to have a play on the ball."  So he peals off the coverage and turns to play the ball.  The problem was he misplayed the ball.  Jumped too early, and the result is terrible.

 

That's the downside of playing really aggressively.  If you mess up, the other team scores six.  The safe play is what you describe.  The next level play is to play the ball like Quan did, but actually time it right and come down with the pick.  Personally, I like that Quan keeps an aggressive style even after coverage failures.  It makes mistakes frustrating and costly, but the reward is worth it for the times he turns the ball over because they can completely swing games.

[kingdaddy]

1 hour ago, skinny21 said:

Hmm… I think we have a little disconnect here.  To be clear, I wasn’t questioning your take on his ball skills (although I hope you’re wrong, lol), or that his takeaways were a result of poor passes.  I was just confused about the body catching part since he used hands only to secure the 3 catches on there.  It’s such a minor thing in the context of what your overall point was - I probably shouldn’t have mentioned it.

 

 

It’s going to be interesting to see how they handle the corner positions, in conjunction with buffalo nickel.  For me, slot corner was probably the most glaring hole on the team pre-draft.  Heck, I might even have called it the one glaring hole, although Fuller and St Juste at least have the capability to play inside.  

Fuller, St Juste and Forbes vying for PT on the outside, possibly St Juste and Martin vying for slot corner, and then figuring out their top 3 safeties (if/when they go with 3 safeties) between Curl, Forrest, Butler and Martin.  To your point though, might make more sense to view Martin as a corner rather than a safety.

Sounds to me like we're gonna roll with Forbes, St. Juste on the outside, Martin in the slot and Curl/Forrest as the safeties....If we keep Fuller maybe he rotates in with Martin moving around? 

Dantzler is likely in the mix too with Reeves making the team as well. Then there's Wildgoose and Castro-Fields? This draft really sets up our secondary for several years if we can keep them all and they pan out. 

[bird_1972]

31 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

Sounds to me like we're gonna roll with Forbes, St. Juste on the outside, Martin in the slot and Curl/Forrest as the safeties....If we keep Fuller maybe he rotates in with Martin moving around? 

Dantzler is likely in the mix too with Reeves making the team as well. Then there's Wildgoose and Castro-Fields? This draft really sets up our secondary for several years if we can keep them all and they pan out. 

 

I forgot about Castro-Fields. We took him off of someone's practice squad (Philly maybe?). In the run up to the draft, he was supposed to be pretty good I think. Would be interesting to see more of him in preseason.

[KDawg]

Quan might be my least favorite pick not counting Jones, who I don’t have much of an opinion on. He’s fine as a player. I love his aggression. It’s clear he’s talented. And he’s a good tackler and sticky enough to be an upgrade at the slot corner spot. 
 

But his interceptions were mostly all due to quarterbacks throwing horrific passes. There’s one where he’s a good 6 yards behind a receiver on a stop route. 
 

I’m real concerned with the idea that we had him higher than Branch (if true) and even wanted to trade up for him. Glad we didn’t.

 

I think he benefitted significantly from Spoon being in the same secondary. And Brown, but I think he and Brown are comparable as prospects. 

But, he seems capable enough and will likely be a solid contributor. I think he’s safer than Henry, who has a way higher bust chance than Quan. 
 

We’ll see.