Trump on Trial (Trump indicted for a fourth time in Georgia. Expands his record of most indictments by a former president)

[Switchgear]

5 minutes ago, tshile said:

the conversation is bigger than what trump supporters will think. There is no control over that and we will have to deal with whatever that is. 
 

but the point is the way things have gone are a reflection of the overall importance of this specific case and situation, as others have outlined. 
 

no one’s suggesting the trump supporters be catered to. Or that trying to “reach” them is something worthy of doing. 
 

but the sensitivity and gravity of this situation is incredible. It’s real. And it seems some people don’t get it. And if at this point if a person doesn’t get it, they’re never going to get it, and there’s a reason for that (bias, being intellectually limited, etc)

I suppose I'm just intellectually limited, but how I see things playing out is delay after delay in every trial, to the point that the election passes. If he wins, he gets away with everything, and with the power of the office, gets to the business of attacking democratic institutions. The "sensitivity and gravity", as previously noted, is the trouble that will arise from his base if he's convicted. Catering to that, moving slowly for fear of angering people who are already angry and won't see any result they don't like as valid, had a hand in creating this mess.

[tshile]

6 minutes ago, LadySkinsFan said:

 

I'd be happy if they confined him to only one of his properties, ankle monitor, only out for court, doctors only. He's basically retired, he doesn't have to work. Also no access to phones with internet access, no computers, etc. So essentially prison without an actual prison. He can't communicate with anyone outside except his lawyers and doctors. 

I hate to say it but I think it’s plausible this is exactly what will happen.  
 

I won’t like it anymore than anyone else but I definitely understand why it’s plausible. 
 

it goes back to my initial reaction - I’m very disappointed there’s nothing about overthrowing the government or insurrection in these charges. But, I’m willing to accept the DOJ is way smarter than me about this - and chose their charges for a list of very specific reasons. 
 

Charges for insurrection and overthrowing the government, to me, would be what puts it over the top and makes what you said super unlikely. It makes life in prison the much more likely outcome. 
 

unfortunately that’s not what the DOJ did (although we may see additional charges before this over; and we may see something I’m talking about added)

Edited August 9, 2023 by tshile

[TheGreatBuzz]

2 minutes ago, tshile said:

it goes back to my initial reaction - I’m very disappointed there’s nothing about overthrowing the government or insurrection in these charges. But, I’m willing to accept the DOJ is way smarter than me about this - and chose their charges for a list of very specific reasons. 

 

And Jack Smith said the investigation is still ongoing.  

[PleaseBlitz]

5 minutes ago, tshile said:

agreed. My only point is it explains a number of things like delays, how the warrants took time and played out, why he wasn’t reacted down and paraded in cuffs. Why we don’t have a mugshot. And a ton of other things

 

becsuse if I did 1/3 of things he did they’d break my door down in the middle of the night with a swat team and parade me around in cuffs everywhere. I’d have a mugshot on every newscast talking about it. 
 

And I’d probably be sitting in prison awaiting my trial. 
 

the bar is set way higher here. And it’s not because he’s above the law and it’s not because the system is rigged

 

its because putting a former president in jail is incredibly sensitive and has a potential for very bad things. That’s all

 

Oh yes, Trump is not being treated like a common criminal by any stretch.  As usual, Trump is being treated far better than is normal, and yet will complain loudly about being treated worse than anybody has ever been treated.  

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 minute ago, tshile said:

But the root of people joining an insurrection was the belief that he won the election and it was stolen from him. We’re talking about 4 years of someone else being in control as the fundamental outrage that caused it all. 
 

and the point of outlining that was to ask - how exactly do you think “spending the rest of his life in prison” is going to resonate with these people? Do you think it’s likely to increase or decrease outrage? I think it’s incredibly obvious what the answer is. 

 

- "Belief that he won the election and it was stolen from him" is quite a bit different than "simply not winning re-election"

 

- If the preplanning, coordination between various groups, and the authority and validity of the presidential bully pit is not available, I think the reaction will be far, far less severe. It's like the difference between someone throwing a lit torch into a dry, dense forest in the middle of a decades-long drought, and someone throwing that lit torch into a healthy forest in the middle of a rainstorm. One can get out of control with insane ease and burn thousands of acres....the other, not so much. The conditions for an out-of-control "fire" just don't seem to be there this time, imo. Or, maybe I should say they could be there, but not in the way most people are fearing.

[LadySkinsFan]

About insurrection charges, it's possible that their witnesses didn't or wouldn't coorborate the necessary evidence for that charge. I mean we all saw it on TV on J6, and to charge it would really tie things up with multiple co-conspirators. 

 

I'm still interested to see if Fani Willis will use her state's RICO statutes.

[tshile]

3 minutes ago, Switchgear said:

I suppose I'm just intellectually limited, but how I see things playing out is delay after delay in every trial, to the point that the election passes. If he wins, he gets away with everything, and with the power of the office, gets to the business of attacking democratic institutions. The "sensitivity and gravity", as previously noted, is the trouble that will arise from his base if he's convicted. Catering to that, moving slowly for fear of angering people who are already angry and won't see any result they don't like as valid, had a hand in creating this mess.

Well. It’s one option to explain why some people don’t “get it”

 

I also listed bias. Which I think is a lot of it. 
 

many people think he’s a career criminal that should already be in prison for a number of other things. That he seriously harmed this country last time, and will do even more if he’s allowed a second run at it. That he’ll try again to overthrow the government, but be successful next time. That we’ll be reduced to a fascist state. 
 

while I share all of those concerns - I think it creates a bias in a lot of people who think this should just be wrapped up. That it’s taking too long.  That the way things are tracking is proof the system is rigged. That some people are above the law. 
 

that’s the bias I’m talking about. I think it explains a lot. 
 

but yes there are some people that bias is not the issue, they just lack the intellectual capability to digest all of this reasonably. 
 

there are other reasons which is why I put etc in there, but i see no reason to keep beating the dead horse. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

10 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

Just observing.  That belief that the election was being stolen was the result of a plan by Trump and the entire Republican Party, and their propaganda network.  

 

 

Absolutely, yes...I should have mentioned them as well. Really underscores the forces at work behind Jan 6 and the "Big Lie" that fueled it all.

[tshile]

2 minutes ago, LadySkinsFan said:

About insurrection charges, it's possible that their witnesses didn't or wouldn't coorborate the necessary evidence for that charge. I mean we all saw it on TV on J6, and to charge it would really tie things up with multiple co-conspirators. 

 

I'm still interested to see if Fani Willis will use her state's RICO statutes.

I’m sure one day, if trump is convicted and does not become president again, we will have books written by people involved that address and explain all of this. 
 

in the meantime I’m simply deferring to the expertise and judgement of the DOJ. Unlike seemingly 40% of our fellow citizens, I have not lost faith in our institutions. 

[LadySkinsFan]

Also, looking at the results from last night's Ohio election to change the state constitution, people are not prepared for We the People will really rise up and go to the polls next year to vote the Fascist Party out as much as possible. 

 

That's why I think the polls declaring that Trump and Biden are neck and neck are bogus.

[tshile]

14 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

Just observing.  That belief that the election was being stolen was the result of a plan by Trump and the entire Republican Party, and their propaganda network.  

 

Which is why I think the lack of insurrection and overthrowing the government charges sucks. 
 

because with those likely comes a significantly wider net of people being charged and a better more thorough dive into what happened here

 

that would probably also take forever, requires a lot of evidence that may not exist, and creates an even dicier situation in regards to the DOJ getting it right. 
 

“don’t let perfect be the enemy of good”

 

sometimes you have to settle for good. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

2 minutes ago, LadySkinsFan said:

Also, looking at the results from last night's Ohio election to change the state constitution, people are not prepared for We the People will really rise up and go to the polls next year to vote the Fascist Party out as much as possible. 

 

That's why I think the polls declaring that Trump and Biden are neck and neck are bogus.

 

 

I read or heard something like 98% of college-age voters voted "No" to that bill yesterday...the GOP really has no chance on a national level if (or when) the youngest voter demographic is motivated to show up.

[EmirOfShmo]

Interesting article by Laurence Tribe for you legal beagle types...

 

https://www.justsecurity.org/87498/kenneth-chesebros-misrepresentation-of-laurence-tribe-scholarship-in-his-efforts-to-overturn-the-2020-presidential-election/

 

[tshile]

27 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

 

I read or heard something like 98% of college-age voters voted "No" to that bill yesterday...the GOP really has no chance on a national level if (or when) the youngest voter demographic is motivated to show up.

There’s a law that passed somewhere raising the age to buy firearms to 21. It’ll be challenged up to scotus. 
 

but my gut thought was that if the dems are successful in raising the age of a constitutional right (to own firearms, in the broad sense (I understand we have higher age restrictions for things like handguns)), the republicans will go after the right to vote and raise the age. The precedent for the age in which you get to exercise a right to be changed from 18 to 21 will have been established. 
 

It would conveniently help them with a demo that consistently voted against them (when they bother to vote …)

[PleaseBlitz]

19 minutes ago, EmirOfShmo said:

Interesting article by Laurence Tribe for you legal beagle types...

 

https://www.justsecurity.org/87498/kenneth-chesebros-misrepresentation-of-laurence-tribe-scholarship-in-his-efforts-to-overturn-the-2020-presidential-election/

 

 

 

Hell hath no wrath like a misconstrued Harvard constitutional scholar. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

18 minutes ago, tshile said:

There’s a law that passed somewhere raising the age to buy firearms to 21. It’ll be challenged up to scotus. 
 

but my gut thought was that if the dems are successful in raising the age of a constitutional right (to own firearms, in the broad sense (I understand we have higher age restrictions for things like handguns)), the republicans will go after the right to vote and raise the age. The precedent for the age in which you get to exercise a right to be changed from 18 to 21 will have been established. 
 

It would conveniently help them with a demo that consistently voted against them (when they bother to vote …)

 

Damn, I hadn't thought of that lol...****.

[China]

Special Counsel Obtained Search Warrant for Trump’s Twitter Account

 

Prosecutors working for Jack Smith, the special counsel who has twice brought indictments against former President Donald J. Trump, obtained a search warrant early this year for Mr. Trump’s long-dormant Twitter account as part of their inquiry into his attempt to overturn the 2020 election, according to court papers unsealed on Wednesday.

 

The warrant, which was signed by a federal judge in Washington in January after Elon Musk took over Twitter, which is now called X, is the first known example of the special counsel’s prosecutors directly searching Mr. Trump’s communications and adds a new dimension to the scope of the special counsel’s efforts to investigate the former president.

 

The court papers, which emerged from an appeal by Twitter challenging the judge’s decision to issue the warrant, did not reveal what prosecutors were looking for in Mr. Trump’s Twitter account, which the tech company shut down just days after the attack on the Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021.

 

But the papers indicate that prosecutors got permission from the judge not to tell Mr. Trump for months that they had obtained the warrant for his account. The prosecutors feared that if Mr. Trump learned about the warrant, it “would seriously jeopardize the ongoing investigation” by giving him “an opportunity to destroy evidence, change patterns of behavior, [or] notify confederates,” the papers said.

 

Click on the link for the full article

[LadySkinsFan]

29 minutes ago, tshile said:

There’s a law that passed somewhere raising the age to buy firearms to 21. It’ll be challenged up to scotus. 
 

but my gut thought was that if the dems are successful in raising the age of a constitutional right (to own firearms, in the broad sense (I understand we have higher age restrictions for things like handguns)), the republicans will go after the right to vote and raise the age. The precedent for the age in which you get to exercise a right to be changed from 18 to 21 will have been established. 
 

It would conveniently help them with a demo that consistently voted against them (when they bother to vote …)

 

It's going to have to be a Constitutional amendment to change the age of voting. It will never pass out of Congress let alone 3/4 of the states.

 

Besides the 2nd Amendment states well regulated militia, that means it can be regulated, something the NRA ignores.

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, China said:

Special Counsel Obtained Search Warrant for Trump’s Twitter Account

 

Prosecutors working for Jack Smith, the special counsel who has twice brought indictments against former President Donald J. Trump, obtained a search warrant early this year for Mr. Trump’s long-dormant Twitter account as part of their inquiry into his attempt to overturn the 2020 election, according to court papers unsealed on Wednesday.

 

The warrant, which was signed by a federal judge in Washington in January after Elon Musk took over Twitter, which is now called X, is the first known example of the special counsel’s prosecutors directly searching Mr. Trump’s communications and adds a new dimension to the scope of the special counsel’s efforts to investigate the former president.

 

The court papers, which emerged from an appeal by Twitter challenging the judge’s decision to issue the warrant, did not reveal what prosecutors were looking for in Mr. Trump’s Twitter account, which the tech company shut down just days after the attack on the Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021.

 

But the papers indicate that prosecutors got permission from the judge not to tell Mr. Trump for months that they had obtained the warrant for his account. The prosecutors feared that if Mr. Trump learned about the warrant, it “would seriously jeopardize the ongoing investigation” by giving him “an opportunity to destroy evidence, change patterns of behavior, [or] notify confederates,” the papers said.

 

Click on the link for the full article

 

Wire fraud evidence, another charge that they don't even have to bring against Trump, just his minions.

 

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by LadySkinsFan

[Darrell Green Fan]

3 hours ago, tshile said:

well. I’m trying to avoid figuring out how confident I am. I’m just trying to watch and understand what’s going on. 
 

as far as delays - what I’m seeing is a judge that has no interest in playing games nor allowing someone to make a circus out of this. 
 

I think there’s been a few things to suggest this - but the latest is where she asked them to confer to find a day/time to have the hearing no later than Friday. Trumps team seems to have asked for a day next week. So the judge scheduled it for this week 😂 

 

I view that as sort of a shot across the bow - you will either follow my general guidance, or I’ll make these decisions on my own if you can’t figure out how to do that. 
 

as for the DOJ’s case - my confidence only comes from understanding the DOJ doesn’t **** around. I think the default assumption should be that if they bring charges against a former president, it’s because they have absolute confidence they have a case they will win. 
 

where I have zero confidence is what a judge will do for punishment. Simply referring to federal sentencing guidelines is foolish - the judge ultimately has complete discretion to venture outside of those if they are capable of justifying why in their ruling. 
 

And despite what everyone here thinks about trump - there is a real issue with putting a former president in prison. An issue I think many here are ignoring or grossly overlooking. But just my opinion 

 

Regarding your last paragraph what is the "issue" with putting a former President in prison?  I never understood that, the law is supposed to apply to everyone.  Why should Trump be exempt from prison time if he is found guilty simply because he was a President?  If nothing else it will send a message to other politicians. 

 

Of all three indictments (to date) I think the documents case is the strongest, and the most damaging to our nation.  But we have Judge Cannon steering everything Trump's way. So yeah I see that being stalled until after the election.  

 

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by Darrell Green Fan

[China]

The delusion is strong in this one:

 

Trump Demands Indictment Against Him be ‘Withdrawn’ Because Now He Has ‘Full Subpoena Power’

 

In his latest outburst on his Truth Social platform, former President Donald Trump has demanded the withdrawal of the indictment against him for his alleged involvement in the 2020 election plot, citing his newfound subpoena power, which he claims was granted due to what he perceives as a baseless Freedom of Speech Sham Indictment orchestrated by President Joe Biden, along with Jack Smith, a special counsel, and the Department of Justice (DOJ).

 

Trump targeted special counsel Jack Smith, whom he has characterized as “deranged” and expressed his outrage over what he calls “destruction of records and documents” by the disbanded January 6th Committee, which he refers to as a group of political hacks and thugs. He then demanded the immediate withdrawal of what he considers to be a fabricated political indictment against him.

 

“So now that I have full Subpoena Power because of the Freedom of Speech Sham Indictment by Crooked Joe Biden, Deranged Jack Smith, and the DOJ, it has just been reported that the Unselect January 6th Committee of Political Hacks and Thugs has illegally destroyed their Records and Documents,” wrote the former president. “This is unthinkable, and the Fake Political Indictment against me must be immediately withdrawn.”

 

He added: “The system is Rigged & Corrupt, very much like the Presidential Election of 2020. We are a Nation in Decline!”

 

The reference stems from a recent Fox News report that suggests House Republicans, led by Rep. Barry Loudermilk (R-GA), have accused the defunct January 6 Committee of failing to properly preserve their investigative records. Republicans contend that the committee’s Democrats purposely removed files related to the Capitol security failures in order to shift blame for the January 6 events onto Trump.

 

Click on the link for the full article

 

Perhaps his giant brain of legal genius is beyond me, but even if he had subpoena power, how would that make it so the indictment should be dropped?

Edited August 9, 2023 by China

[PleaseBlitz]

1 minute ago, China said:

Perhaps is giant brain of legal genius is beyond me, but even if he had subpoena power, how would that make it so the indictment should be dropped?

I feel like we are long past the point of logically assessing Mr. Trumps rantings. 

[EmirOfShmo]

16 minutes ago, LadySkinsFan said:

Wire fraud evidence, another charge that they don't even have to bring against Trump, just his minions.

This is the charge I'm waiting for, The MSNBC video a few pages back speculated if this happens the DOJ will freeze the Save America PAC assets. This would suspend payment to all TFG attorney's AND all the other GQP attorney's they are currently paying. 

Edited August 9, 2023 by EmirOfShmo

[China]

3 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

I feel like we are long past the point of logically assessing Mr. Trumps rantings. 

 

Yeah, I think a disclaimer such as the one below should be attached to all of his Truth Social posts:

 

[China]

13 hours ago, China said:

Follow the money:

 

 

 

Jack Smith may force Trump to pay back millions in donations, ex-FBI official says

 

Donald Trump may be eventually forced to return millions of dollars of campaign funds he raised after the 2020 elections on fraudulent claims, a retired FBI official said on Tuesday.

 

Frank Figliuzzi, a former FBI assistant director, said it “isn’t over” for Mr Trump after he was indicted over alleged efforts to overturn 2020 election results in charges led by special counsel Jack Smith in federal district court in Washington DC.

 

“When you raise millions based on a fraudulent claim, you’ve committed a crime. And, you just might have to give those millions back... Special counsel still scrutinizing finances of Trump’s PAC,” Mr Figliuzzi said in a post on X, formerly Twitter.

 

His comments came on the heels of a Politico report which said investigators held a closed-door interview on Monday with Bernard Kerik, the disgraced ex-NYPD Commissioner who was pardoned by Donald Trump in 2020.

 

Click on the link for the full article

[Fan since a Fetus]

I don’t see a civil war happening. I just don’t think there are that many Trump supporters that can’t be handled with our law enforcement or military. You might have some skirmishes here and there like the dumb Bundy clan, but I don’t see anything beyond that.

 

People are really selfish these days. I don’t see too many putting their lives on the line to fight for this blowhard. The only thing that does really concern me is how the voting is handled in the future. The Republicans changing laws so they can get rid of the citizens nominations and put in their guys under the number umbrella of “what’s best for the country” we are already seeing this on a smaller scale in Republican states. Look at the Houston school system recently. Gregg Abbott screwed them. 
 

I think this could lead to larger skirmishes than Trump going to prison or anything else. People have short memories. Once they don’t hear about him anymore, many people will forget or at least not bother with his name.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Fan since a Fetus