The Official 2023 ES Free Agency Thread... available until Free Agency 2024 begins

[philibusters]

I am still on the Rivera train and would like to see him back in 2024, but I agree this offseason was disappointing in the sense we didn't address two of our three most obvious needs strongly.  Yes they did make moves with the O-Line bringing in Andrew Wylie and Nick Gates, but neither guy really moves the needle and Gates has been injured each of the past two years.   They also let Schweitzer go which didn't make sense to me (though getting rid of Turner, Norwell, and Roullier did make sense).  And while the guys they got in the draft could develop into starters, they had a shot in the second round to grab either of Dawand Jones or O'Cyrus Torrence and passed on both and to get a nickel back.   Then they passed on Jones again in the third.  And while I think Quan Martin will likely be starter quality, there is a possibility he is available at 97.  One of the podcasts I listen to mentioned that one of the themes of the draft was nickle corners went late starting with Brian Branch falling all the way to 45, but then lots of other nickel players fell like Antonio Johnson I think to the 5th and Anthony Johnson Jr. to the 7th so even if Quan Martin is not there at 97 which is a real possibility there were decent options in the 5th, 6th, and 7th rounds for players who could play that role.  Then the other position they failed to address was LB.  They let Cole Holcomb go and bring in Cody Barton.   It can definitely be argued that is a lateral move, but to the extent the move is an up or down move, it probably was a down move for the unit.   There have been a couple decent options that were fairly cheap at LB that signed else already (see link below) and now our options seem fairly limited.  So I agree its been a lackluster (though not terrible offseason)  https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/inside-linebacker/

[wit33]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

I like to juxtapose our siutation with the Giants because arguably the Eagles-Dallas are competiing for the top spot and we likely battle with the Giants for 3rd.

 

On paper the Giants had the off season that Ron probably wanted to have with the power of hindsight -- both in terms of going heavy in addressing a weakness and also being an interesting one for a fan base.   I think Ron needed to have an off season like that to sell new ownership.  But he didn't have one unless there is some surprise release of a player that they pounce on akin to the Desean Jackson signing from years back.

 

The Giants were the team already working with prosperity -- they were already 3rd in the league in fan attendance and have the national media admiration that it feels like Ron wants and is annoyed that he didn't get.   And they won a playoff game last year.

 

I'd bet its jarring to him that the Giants got 5 prime time games.  We got zero games for Sunday or Monday.  The national media and league is collectively yawning at this team.  That's the good news, the bad news is most expect this team to suck.  The Junkies polled the fan base and the fans are expecting a down year.

 

I used to think while Ron is likely a goner in 2024, I'd think no way he gets fired during the 2023 season.  Now I think its in play and as much as I like Ron part of me would likely to see it happen because of what I think is a total lack of reading the room.

 

IMO he didn't have to have an exciting off season.  Rebuild that O line -- it would be boring to see that go down but the action should result in a better team and help set up Howell for success.   So that version of boring IMO would have been good.  If he didn't do that -- at least draft a dude or sign a dude that lets say a parent bringing their kid to a game in celebration of new ownership would be jazzed to see.  He did neither thing.

 

Josh Harris is known for wanting an outside the box thinker at GM and by nature he is aggressive.  lol, it almost feels like Ron did the opposite just to flout him and is ready to go off to pasture with Dan.     

 

Basically in short, Ron made his bed where the best splash for Harris to make is to fire Ron if he starts off slow.  And If that happens I'd endorse it.  Because while I liked, not loved, how Ron has approached previous drafts-off seasons -- its just beyond bizzare to me that he took the pedal off the gas in off season #4.

 

 

I loved the off season by Ron but extreme bias due to aligning with how QB position and Oline are being managed financially. Couple this with going all in on the Dline and defense as a whole, he’s being bold and going against the grain—this excites me. The average Joe and kids care if they win or not, plain and simple. Don’t really disagree with much of you shared. 
 

The Oline is filled with veterans who’ve achieved competence in the NFL. Power is in the numbers with Olineman, those dudes get injured too often to rely or spend big money on. 
 

I concede, odds are Washington is somewhere around .500 and Ron gets fired. This current financial model doesn’t get a competitive advantage versus the division this season due to Hurts and Jones counting very little towards the cap. 

[Skinsinparadise]

41 minutes ago, wit33 said:

I loved the off season by Ron but extreme bias due to aligning with how QB position and Oline are being managed financially. Couple this with going all in on the Dline and defense as a whole, he’s being bold and going against the grain—this excites me. The average Joe and kids care if they win or not, plain and simple. Don’t really disagree with much of you shared. 
 

The Oline is filled with veterans who’ve achieved competence in the NFL. Power is in the numbers with Olineman, those dudes get injured too often to rely or spend big money on. 
 

I concede, odds are Washington is somewhere around .500 and Ron gets fired. This current financial model doesn’t get a competitive advantage versus the division this season due to Hurts and Jones counting very little towards the cap. 

 

I get your whole point about % of the cap at QB.  I think sometimes you overstate the point but I get the mindset.

 

What's the mindset of not spending much on O line?  Not an important spot, so don't spend too much?

 

I wished I loved the off season from Ron but I don't.  In Harris shoes, I'd have a strong itch to fire him if the season starts off poorly.  I didn't feel that way the start of the off season but I do know.  IMO he had the most uninspiring off season of the 4 teams in this division. 

 

IMO he executed the perfect storm to start off Harris' tenure with zero help as for creating a buzz for this new start.  Left a weak unit -- weak IMO.  And didn't make a single exciting move from the standpoint of getting fans juiced. 

 

You couple that with Rivera's own sort of lukewarm vibe about this season  -- if I were in Harris shoes, I'd be think unless Rivera provides a shockingly good season -- he's 100% gone.  No brainer.  Not 95%.  100%.   If Rivera tried to sell his off season, I'd feel a bit better about it but even he seems uninspired.   If anything he seems a bit defensive where he's already working up excuses for this season.  Maybe its just a phase from Ron where he's absorbing the new ownership and or is annoyed at the total lack of hype from the national media -- and he gets his mojo back. 

 

His off season unintentonally IMO flouted the whole idea that this is a fan base in need of a jolt whether its to get off to a running start with a new owner or making even one off season move with any juice. 

 

lol, almost felt like Ron knew Harris' reputation for liking outside the box thinkers and aggressivness -- and he did the opposite, implying to Harris that I bet some people around you might say I am too vanilla-boring for someone like you.  So you know what, i'll give you the most vanilla-boring off season of my 4 years here and even talk up the owner who is leaving while I am doing it.   lol, i am not saying Ron wants to be fired but almost feels like subconsciously he does. 

Edited May 15, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

4 hours ago, philibusters said:

So I agree its been a lackluster (though not terrible offseason)  https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/inside-linebacker/

 

Lackuster but not terrible I agree. 

 

My issue with it is 3 fold.

 

A.  Feels like Shanny's tenure -- my journey with my takes on Shanny is similar to Rivera where I had his back for the first 3 years.  But the 4th season went south and it felt like he was selling that it takes 5 years to do this which strikes me pathetic considering how quickly other teams have rebuilt.  Rivera feels like is about to embark on that same sell.

 

B.  He seems very conscious of the lack of buzz around this team and that fans don't show up.  Yet, does nothing to factor that in anything he does.

 

C.  The other FO's in this division IMO are A level -- both as for building rosters and getting the fans juiced.  IMO Rivera is a B minus level FO guy and is an F as to creating buzz. 

 

I argued with a dude here a lot who wanted Ron gone.  He's not here now.  And its not that I think he was right at that time.    I do think Rivera did a solid job working under a curve for Dan -- good job but not great job. 

 

But unless Ron surprises this season, I am hardcore wanting Ron gone now.  I've read a lot about Harris and his standards.  And I'd find Ron unacceptable under those standards.

 

Ron is sort of like Outback Steakhouse.  Good quality food.  Nothing great.  Harris craves Ruth's Chris quality.  This off season, Ron seems to be screaming in Harris' face that he's an Outback guy and always will be.  That's cool.  There are plenty of restaurants worse than that.   It's solid-good.  But for a fan base starving for success -- Rivera to me is yawn. 

 

I was interested to see if he took it up notch this off season -- I thought he potentially had it in him -- but it feels like he doesn't.  So unless he has a surprise season, not only do I want him fired but I am VERY enthusiastic about firing him.  And its not because I don't think he's done a decent job while here.  He did a nice job IMO.   Good person.  And the firing isn't about the past but the future and IMO a total lack of awareness. 

 

I find this off season baffiling -- lackluster and weird especially with him multiple times praising Dan when he didn't have to do that.  Heck even Gibbs in his statement about the Harris purchase, didn't say a word about Dan.   Who is praising Dan on the way out -- only Ron as far as I can tell. 

Edited May 15, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

https://steelersdepot.com/2023/04/steelers-summer-tackle-additions-might-include-looks-at-xfl-players/

 

 

[The Rook]

44 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

https://steelersdepot.com/2023/04/steelers-summer-tackle-additions-might-include-looks-at-xfl-players/

 

 

 

 

Okay, okay ... I like it.  Maybe there is a best LB of the XFL out there as well.

 

If he makes the team, he will sure be tired come December.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Rook

[Commander Chaaarmnder]

This team could go 12-5, or 4-13.   Somewhere in-between in more likely.  I expect a talented team that just can’t quite fire on all cylinders game in and game out.  Defense shows up one week, offense the other.  These young guys have a lot of promise, but I believe they will be underutilized in the coming season.  

[redskinss]

His second stint as a commander.

[skinzplay]

14 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

But unless Ron surprises this season, I am hardcore wanting Ron gone now.  I've read a lot about Harris and his standards.  And I'd find Ron unacceptable under those standards.

 

In total agreement. And it doesn't help that we've been docked OTA time because RR violated league rules in how he ran practices last year. In Keim's pod yesterday, he noted how that adversely affects the team as the try to get a solid, good start to the season.  The positive things he's done off the field just can't negate the insufficiency on the field.

[Darrell Green Fan]

2 minutes ago, skinzplay said:

 

In total agreement. And it doesn't help that we've been docked OTA time because RR violated league rules in how he ran practices last year. In Keim's pod yesterday, he noted how that adversely affects the team as the try to get a solid, good start to the season.  The positive things he's done off the field just can't negate the insufficiency on the field.

Yeah that was a brutal mistake for a coach with a 2nd year QB learning a new system. I also agree that this offseason was not nearly good enough.  As his teams always start slowly I would not be surprised if he is dismissed in October.  

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, skinzplay said:

 

In total agreement. And it doesn't help that we've been docked OTA time because RR violated league rules in how he ran practices last year. In Keim's pod yesterday, he noted how that adversely affects the team as the try to get a solid, good start to the season.  The positive things he's done off the field just can't negate the insufficiency on the field.

 

I heard, that.  He's been OK on the field IMO.   But IMO OK is just not good enough to take that next step.

 

The kicker for me is how Ron himself comes off lukewarm about the season.   We got Mayhew in his post draft presser openly talking about how he wishes he were more aggressive.  Maybe as the season approaches we hear more optimism from that crew but for now it seems oddly a mixed message about the upcoming season with some built in excuses already being laid out mostly on the theme of the roster is good -- even if we don't win -- i gave the next coach a roster he can build off of.  

 

Ron while talked up FA gave them the ability to do BPA in the draft -- it comes off that he really didn't believe it and planned to draft for need.  Keim pretty much telegraphed it by talking up how on day 1 and day 2 they priortized 2 spots, O line being the tops. 

 

But on draft day, the board didn't fall their way and now are thinking oops the draft gods didn't help us balance out this team's needs. 

 

And I do think the kicker is Ron is clearly well liked and connected with the national media and craves any validation from them.  It's easy to see because whenever he gets some crumbs on that front he talks about it.  So I am guessing it got to him that the national media not only doesn't expect this team to be good but believe they will be one of the worst teams in the NFL. 

 

And the disinterest in this team was doubled down on by the NFL.  They don't sell tickets and the national audience doesn't care to watch this team.  He didn't get a single Sunday Night or Monday Night football game.  And Ron is no dummy, I am sure he realizes that Josh Harris gets the lack of national buzz for this season -- its impossible to miss.  And Rivera will have no chance to sell Harris that a record trending down -- not even staying even but down -- means a pink slip.

 

So in short it feels like Ron feels he's a dead man walking and he's done everything to fast track his firing versus giving himself a shot to return.  Right down to being the lone wolf praising Dan as he leaves -- Ron seems to be singing his own swan song.  Feels like he already has his 2024 plans set and it won't be here.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Darrell Green Fan]

14 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I heard, that.  He's been OK on the field IMO.   But IMO OK is just not good enough to take that next step.

 

The kicker for me is how Ron himself comes off lukewarm about the season.   We got Mayhew in his post draft presser openly talking about how he wishes he were more aggressive.  Maybe as the season approaches we hear more optimism from that crew but for now it seems oddly a mixed message about the upcoming season with some built in excuses already being laid out mostly on the theme of the roster is good -- even if we don't win -- i gave the next coach a roster he can build off of.  

 

Ron while talked up FA gave them the ability to do BPA in the draft -- it comes off that he really didn't believe it and planned to draft for need.  Keim pretty much telegraphed it by talking up how on day 1 and day 2 they priortized 2 spots, O line being the tops. 

 

But on draft day, the board didn't fall their way and now are thinking oops the draft gods didn't help us balance out this team's needs. 

 

And I do think the kicker is Ron is clearly well liked and connected with the national media and craves any validation from them.  It's easy to see because whenever he gets some crumbs on that front he talks about it.  So I am guessing it got to him that the national media not only doesn't expect this team to be good but believe they will be one of the worst teams in the NFL. 

 

And the disinterest in this team was doubled down on by the NFL.  They don't sell tickets and the national audience doesn't care to watch this team.  He didn't get a single Sunday Night or Monday Night football game.  And Ron is no dummy, I am sure he realizes that Josh Harris gets the lack of national buzz for this season -- its impossible to miss.  And Rivera will have no chance to sell Harris that a record trending down -- not even staying even but down -- means a pink slip.

 

So in short it feels like Ron feels he's a dead man walking and he's done everything to fast track his firing versus giving himself a shot to return.  Right down to being the lone wolf praising Dan as he leaves -- Ron seems to be singing his own swan song.  Feels like he already has his 2024 plans set and it won't be here.

 

You are all but saying Ron is trying to get fired. I don't get that impression at all.  As for the draft if the earlier picks didn't go their way I'm very glad they didn't reach to fill an OL need.  

[clskinsfan]

I dont hate the offseason as much as others. For me Payne was the main thing to get done. They did that and the interior DL is solidified for a long time. We will have to make a decision at DE next year obviously. But Allen can play there in a 3-4 base and nickel anyways. Probably whey they went with Mathis in last years draft. Really only need to keep one of Chase or Sweat. Chase hasnt earned anything yet IMO. They did address the OL in the offseason as well. Maybe not with players some would prefer. But they signed guys there that have shown they are at least serviceable starters in the league. The offense has tons of weapons. Really no reason to add anything there. Maybe they could have added a TE. But they apparently really like their TE room right now. LB is the one glaring hole on the team IMO. But we play nickel so much that they can mask that shortcoming. 

 

The entire season comes down to whether Howell is a NFL QB or not. The flashes I saw last season say he is to me. But only time will tell. If Howell excels the team will be really good IMO. If he struggles so will the team. And Rivera will be gone next season. 

 

Regardless I would expect Harris to completely gut the front office next year. It is how he has done it with his other teams. He will bring in competent talent evaluators and is not afraid to suck ass in the short term for long term success. Exciting time to be a Washington football fan. Most excited I have been in decades. 

[Skinsinparadise]

31 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

You are all but saying Ron is trying to get fired. I don't get that impression at all.  As for the draft if the earlier picks didn't go their way I'm very glad they didn't reach to fill an OL need.  

 

I explained it more in full in a different post.  I don't think he's trying to get fired.  It feels like he's resigned to getting fired.  And he should be IMO unless this season is surprsingly good.

 

I don't like forcing picks in the draft either.   It's my mantra on the draft thread.   But when you leave the draft to shop for need -- you better hope that the draft Gods help that effort and IMO the draft gods clearly did not.  

 

And when you call out a spot as a code red spot which arguably derailed the previous season and then do very little IMO (and plenty of others opinion) to fix it -- if that same spot derails the season, he deserves to be fired and big time so IMO.  The Giants had a code red spot this off season - which was their receiving crew -- they went to town in every way possible -- FA, the draft, trade.  We did not do that for our code red spot.

 

I'll grant that they still have an opportunity to do it.  But if they don't and the season is derailed again for the same reason -- Rom made his bed IMO. 

 

This is coming from I'd say one of his top 5 defenders on this board for the last three years.   Ron's biggest critic here hated me.    I took him on again and again.  And not because I loved the job Ron was doing.  But I think under circumstances, Ron did a decent job and did so with class so I defended him.  And I still feel that way about the job he's done, I got no bitterness at all about Ron. 

 

But I 100% want him gone after this off season -- unless of course they surprise.  Along with @Koolblue13 I was one of the most optimistic people here about this roster.  He can vouch for that.   But both him and i among others do not feel like Ron aced this off season.  And while I think Vegas, the national media, draft geeks, etc have gone too far as expecting this team to be one of the worst 5 teams in the league -- i do think this is a step back season, 7-10 something like that.  But lol, maybe that's a good omen.    I typically am more optimisitc than i should be about upcoming seasons so maybe feeling the reverse is good karma?

Edited May 16, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

18 hours ago, philibusters said:

I am still on the Rivera train and would like to see him back in 2024, but I agree this offseason was disappointing in the sense we didn't address two of our three most obvious needs strongly.  Yes they did make moves with the O-Line bringing in Andrew Wylie and Nick Gates, but neither guy really moves the needle and Gates has been injured each of the past two years.   They also let Schweitzer go which didn't make sense to me (though getting rid of Turner, Norwell, and Roullier did make sense).  And while the guys they got in the draft could develop into starters, they had a shot in the second round to grab either of Dawand Jones or O'Cyrus Torrence and passed on both and to get a nickel back.   Then they passed on Jones again in the third.  And while I think Quan Martin will likely be starter quality, there is a possibility he is available at 97.  One of the podcasts I listen to mentioned that one of the themes of the draft was nickle corners went late starting with Brian Branch falling all the way to 45, but then lots of other nickel players fell like Antonio Johnson I think to the 5th and Anthony Johnson Jr. to the 7th so even if Quan Martin is not there at 97 which is a real possibility there were decent options in the 5th, 6th, and 7th rounds for players who could play that role.  Then the other position they failed to address was LB.  They let Cole Holcomb go and bring in Cody Barton.   It can definitely be argued that is a lateral move, but to the extent the move is an up or down move, it probably was a down move for the unit.   There have been a couple decent options that were fairly cheap at LB that signed else already (see link below) and now our options seem fairly limited.  So I agree its been a lackluster (though not terrible offseason)  https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/inside-linebacker/

 

I would argue evidence leads us to thinking O'Cyrus Torrence and Dawand Jones were not on their main draft board. Dawand was rumored to have some medical issues flagged. But O'Cyrus is not the type of athlete Eric Bieniemy wants. I think a better guy to say "we could have gotten them instead at pick #47" was Cody Mauch.

 

I'm not sure it makes sense to play the evaluation game of if someone could have been taken 1.5 rounds or more later than where they were drafted. We know they talked about trading up for Quan Martin, but decided not to. I remember back when we grabbed Benjamin St. Juste, there were similar discussions of reaching, but then it was later revealed the Saints were trying to trade up with us to take St. Juste themselves.

 

I also think our three most obvious needs entering the off-season would differ depending on who you ask. I know the media all seemed to rate TE above LB as a need for us, at least it was that way in oodles of mock drafts. Entering the off-season, I'd say the order of needs probably went something like this, but some (like QB depth) could be argued higher.

1) Center

2) Nickel

3) Right Tackle

4) Outside Corner

5) QB depth

6) Guard depth (that could compete for a spot)

7) ILB

8 ) Edge depth

[Skinsinparadise]

9 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

I would argue evidence leads us to thinking O'Cyrus Torrence and Dawand Jones were not on their main draft board. Dawand was rumored to have some medical issues flagged. But O'Cyrus is not the type of athlete Eric Bieniemy wants. I think a better guy to say "we could have gotten them instead at pick #47" was Cody Mauch.

 

I'm not sure it makes sense to play the evaluation game of if someone could have been taken 1.5 rounds or more later than where they were drafted. We know they talked about trading up for Quan Martin, but decided not to. I remember back when we grabbed Benjamin St. Juste, there were similar discussions of reaching, but then it was later revealed the Saints were trying to trade up with us to take St. Juste themselves.

 

I also think our three most obvious needs entering the off-season would differ depending on who you ask. I know the media all seemed to rate TE above LB as a need for us, at least it was that way in oodles of mock drafts. Entering the off-season, I'd say the order of needs probably went something like this, but some (like QB depth) could be argued higher.

1) Center

2) Nickel

3) Right Tackle

4) Outside Corner

5) QB depth

6) Guard depth (that could compete for a spot)

7) ILB

8 ) Edge depth

 

Disagree with some of those order of needs.   But it doesn't matter.

 

Keim telegraphed their approach for day 1 and day 2 before it happened based on what he heard.  I posted it in real time on the draft thread.

 

They saw O line as their top want on day 1, most likely tackle with CB as the runner up.  And preferred to trade down.

 

On day 2 it was sort of a toss up between O line and nickel but hinted O line maybe a hair above. 

 

Keim initially mentioned that they wanted to trade up for Avila.  Then switched it to Quan Martin.  Then Bram had Keim on after the draft and Bram told Keim he heard it was Avila they wanted to trade up for -- Keim didn't disagree, he wasn't sure.

 

If the board went amok on either day there was a small chance it would have been DE, Edge or maybe Hooker if he fell to the late third.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

This offseason leaves me feeling like I was sprayed with the broken poo pipe and I expect to be let down worse than the handicapped railing.

[skinny21]

@Skinsinparadise I’m not sure if I’m understanding your comments about creating a buzz.  Would this be things like drafting Kincaid, a speed back, Levis, Hooker, etc?  Going hog wild (no pun intended) on the oline by, for example, trading up for Broderick Jones and then Mauch in the 2nd or Dawand Jones at 16 with Mauch (obviously that one’s probably a big mistake in hindsight of course)?  Maybe trying to trade one of our dlinemen for an olineman?  Or splashier FA moves - like trying for Waller or Orlando Brown?  Trading for Aaron Rodgers?

 

 

Personally, I’m quite torn on Ron.  Abject failure at the qb spot vs the potential Howell has.  The roster feeling like it’s close, but not seeing improvement on the oline and ILB (and Howell plays a massive part here too).  The positive change in culture but lack of results on the field.  Not knowing how to weigh out the anchor that is Snyder - including distractions, poor facilities, poor treatment of players, stadium issues, and general lack of spending vs sketchy FA and Ron wearing two hats.

 

I think in an ideal world - purely from an evaluation of Rivera standpoint - I’d want to see the team slog through this year with Howell and EB’s offense showing some promise, take the GM mantle from Ron, and then see if we can add a few pieces next offseason to take the next step.  We’re then, in theory, fielding a strong D, an exciting offense, a strong culture (lot of jokes attached to this one, but it does make a difference IMO), and the prospect of improved facilities, more money in scouting/analytics, a talented GM, and new stadium on the horizon, etc.  If Ron fails to take the next step in 2024, within that environment, I’d feel good about knowing we got a definitive answer.

 

Seems like the more likely move (and I can absolutely understand the feeling it’s also the better route) is we make a sea change - GM and coaches - heavily invest in (trying to land) a young qb and start looking to a new future.  Can’t say I have a problem with going that route.

 

[Koolblue13]

Ron was great and did what he needed to do for this franchise, but his tenure has jumped the shark(also a better name than Commies).

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Disagree with some of those order of needs.   But it doesn't matter.

 

Keim telegraphed their approach for day 1 and day 2 before it happened based on what he heard.  I posted it in real time on the draft thread.

 

They saw O line as their top want on day 1, most likely tackle with CB as the runner up.  And preferred to trade down.

 

On day 2 it was sort of a toss up before O line and nickel but hinted O line maybe a hair above. 

 

Keim initially mentioned that they wanted to trade up for Avila.  Then switched it to Quan Martin.  Then Bram had Keim on after the draft and Bram told Keim he heard it ewas Avila they wanted to trade up for -- Keim didn't disagree, he wasn't sure.

 

If the board went amok on either day there was a small chance it would have been DE, Edge or maybe Hooker if he fell to the late third.

 

Order of needs was stated for beginning of off-season, not pre-draft. For example, beginning of off-season we had the often injured Roullier at Center and that was the only guy on the roster.

[Morneblade]

18 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I explained it more in full in a different post.  I don't think he's trying to get fired.  It feels like he's resigned to getting fired.  And he should be IMO unless this season is surprsingly good.

 

Ironically enough, to me this is a self fulfilling prophecy. He's getting fired because, IMO, he didn't want to step up and work, because he thought he was getting fired. It's also obvious he puts more stock in investing on the defensive side of the ball. Except LB, which is again, ironic.

 

18 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I don't like forcing picks in the draft either.   It's my mantra on the draft thread.   But when you leave the draft to shop for need -- you better hope that the draft Gods help that effort and IMO the draft gods clearly did not.  

 

I honestly don't think they were going to draft a OL high, no matter how the draft went. I mean, a couple years ago we had a pretty decent OL that was built with cast offs and it actually worked, and he figured we could just not pay them, and hit the dumpster again, with the same results. I feel like he hates investing the the OL. And I absolutely hate that.

 

18 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

And when you call out a spot as a code red spot which arguably derailed the previous season and then do very little IMO (and plenty of others opinion) to fix it -- if that same spot derails the season, he deserves to be fired and big time so IMO.  The Giants had a code red spot this off season - which was their receiving crew -- they went to town in every way possible -- FA, the draft, trade.  We did not do that for our code red spot.

 

Agreed.

 

18 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I'll grant that they still have an opportunity to do it.  But if they don't and the season is derailed again for the same reason -- Rom made his bed IMO. 

 

June 1st cuts are literally the worst way to fix a issue. I know you know this, because you can't rely on them at all. So, if this is what you're stuck doing, it's obvious to me that you don't really know what you are doing.

 

18 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

This is coming from I'd say one of his top 5 defenders on this board for the last three years.   Ron's biggest critic here hated me.    I took him on again and again.  And not because I loved the job Ron was doing.  But I think under circumstances, Ron did a decent job and did so with class so I defended him.  And I still feel that way about the job he's done, I got no bitterness at all about Ron. 

 

But I 100% want him gone after this off season -- unless of course they surprise.  Along with @Koolblue13 I was one of the most optimistic people here about this roster.  He can vouch for that.   But both him and i among others do not feel like Ron aced this off season.  And while I think Vegas, the national media, draft geeks, etc have gone too far as expecting this team to be one of the worst 5 teams in the league -- i do think this is a step back season, 7-10 something like that.  But lol, maybe that's a good omen.    I typically am more optimisitc than i should be about upcoming seasons so maybe feeling the reverse is good karma?

 

Yeah, Ron needs to be gone after this year. Maybe EB does a good job and gets consideration as HC here.

[MartinC]

23 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

The Giants had a code red spot this off season - which was their receiving crew -- they went to town in every way possible -- FA, the draft, trade.  We did not do that for our code red spot.

 

But in the end I think the Giants ended up in exactly the same place as us with our O’line issue at receiver. They have signed some vets who can play but are not top level starters. They have more depth but lack quality. 
 

I would say they have 3 #3 type receivers, maybe a #2 but no #1. 
 

Getting Waller is a wild card. He adds a receiving weapon at TE - buts it’s been two seasons since he was a stud. Injuries have been an issue. He’s a gamble.

 

If I was a Giants fan I’d still be looking at their receivers just like we are looking at our O’line.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

22 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

@Skinsinparadise I’m not sure if I’m understanding your comments about creating a buzz.  Would this be things like drafting Kincaid, a speed back, Levis, Hooker, etc?  Going hog wild (no pun intended) on the oline by, for example, trading up for Broderick Jones and then Mauch in the 2nd or Dawand Jones at 16 with Mauch (obviously that one’s probably a big mistake in hindsight of course)?  Maybe trying to trade one of our dlinemen for an olineman?  Or splashier FA moves - like trying for Waller or Orlando Brown?  Trading for Aaron Rodgers?

 

 

My point on creating a buzz is if you are going to have a non-buzz type of off season -- nothing exciting but hey they fixed their weaknesses and can compete next season  -- fantastic that's ideal.  I endorse it.  Buzz is irrelevant if you are good. If they loaded up on big men for the O line, it would create no buzz.  But IMO they'd have a shot to win so that's the ultimate buzz.

 

But if you don't fix your weakness AND do nothing to create a buzz either.   That's IMO a lose lose for this franchise which is desperate to gain some national relevance and regain traction with fans who haven't been excited about this team in eons.   And buzz doesn't even have to be getting a player.  Trade your 2nd round pick for next years first -- do something Eagles style and build for the future.  Do something different.  The Giants had a ho hum receiving crew -- they trade for Waller, trade up for Hyatt -- that's buzz worthy stuff that helps sell tickets.

 

For me personally, I want them to win.  But its a double kick in the gut to see them lose while also being a national punchline for irrelevance, being a non-factor as to getting prime time games, being dead last in fan attendance -- we lose and are boring losers.  That's been the hallmark of this franchise for a long time.  And IMHO Ron did nothing this off season to get off that treadmill -- I don't think he took the roster up a notch to win and he did nothing to tease fans either with hey wait to you see this guy -- or hey we got 10 draft picks in 2024 or whatever.

 

I don't care about the buzz in a vacuum.  But if you aren't going to fix the ships top hole that sunk it last year and IMHO are poised to watch that ship sink again -- at least give us some toys while doing it or some future hope that can make the ride to the bottom of the sea interesting.

 

I've talked about this issue many times from the context of my kids.  I have friends-relatives who are (in some cases were) Washington fans but lost their kids to other teams.  lol, I've pulled it off so far with my kids -- but its not easy.  My wife is a Giants fan for example.  They sell out their games.  They are on prime time next year 5 times.  they made some buzz worthy moves in the off season.   

 

This team doesn't play that game.  JP Finlay likes to say he lives in the DMV and sees hardly any kids wearing Washington jerseys but are wearing jerseys of other teams.   And while I again never want to major in moves that create buzz.  If you can't build a winning roster, which this team seems to struggle with and IMO Rivera hasn't pulled that off in 4 years -- make up for it a little by being a little interesting.   

 

 

16 minutes ago, MartinC said:

But in the end I think the Giants ended up in exactly the same place as us with our O’line issue at receiver. They have signed some vets who can play but are not top level starters. They have more depth but lack quality. 
 

I would say they have 3 #3 type receivers, maybe a #2 but no #1. 
 

Getting Waller is a wild card. He adds a receiving weapon at TE - buts it’s been two seasons since he was a stud. Injuries have been an issue. He’s a gamble.

 

If I was a Giants fan I’d still be looking at their receivers just like we are looking at our O’line.

 

 

 

I am a big Jalin Hyatt fan so that's a tough one for me to agree on. 

 

Waller is one of the better TEs in the NFL but agree he has to prove he can stay healthy.

 

Wan'Dale Robinson was one of my favorite players in the previous draft.  So i am higher on him than most.  He was starting to play really well before he got hurt last season.

 

Their depth at that spot is good between Campbell, Crowder, Slayton, Shepard. 

 

I think their off season was much more interesting at TE-WR than ours at O line. 

Edited May 16, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[philibusters]

I like Quan Martin enough, but when I go back to this draft, that pick is where I struggle to agree with the reasoning.   We needed O-Line for that second pick and we had four good options available.  The ubertalented, but terrible attitude Dawand Jones, O'Cyrus Torrence, Cody Mauch, and Jon Michael Schmitz.   Instead we went with Quan Martin.  Maybe he is the best player of those 5.  But even if he is, after taking Forbes in the first round and geting Cameron Dantzler, O-Line was a bigger need than DB.  Further Nickel backs are not that expensive in free agency.  You can get a player like Bobby McCain for for 4 million. Whereas getting even a cheaper Tackle is going to cost you 8 million or so per year and getting a cheaper guard would be around 6 million per year.  We picked a player at a position where we can get somebody in free agency a bit cheaper and thus the surplus from the draft pick will be cheaper.   Plus with hindsight we know slot corners fell pretty hard in this draft so there were lots of options available on day 3.

 

Now if Quan Martin balls out and is an clear upgrade of McCain, I will like the pick.  But if he is plays at a Bobby McCain level, but just provides a little bit more versatility, it was a bad pick because you can get a proven guy in free agency to do that fairly cheaply.  And we missed a good opportunity to upgrade our O-Line.

[Skinsinparadise]

41 minutes ago, philibusters said:

I like Quan Martin enough, but when I go back to this draft, that pick is where I struggle to agree with the reasoning.   We needed O-Line for that second pick and we had four good options available.  The ubertalented, but terrible attitude Dawand Jones, O'Cyrus Torrence, Cody Mauch, and Jon Michael Schmitz.   Instead we went with Quan Martin.  Maybe he is the best player of those 5.  But even if he is, after taking Forbes in the first round and geting Cameron Dantzler, O-Line was a bigger need than DB.  Further Nickel backs are not that expensive in free agency.  You can get a player like Bobby McCain for for 4 million. Whereas getting even a cheaper Tackle is going to cost you 8 million or so per year and getting a cheaper guard would be around 6 million per year.  We picked a player at a position where we can get somebody in free agency a bit cheaper and thus the surplus from the draft pick will be cheaper.   Plus with hindsight we know slot corners fell pretty hard in this draft so there were lots of options available on day 3.

 

Now if Quan Martin balls out and is an clear upgrade of McCain, I will like the pick.  But if he is plays at a Bobby McCain level, but just provides a little bit more versatility, it was a bad pick because you can get a proven guy in free agency to do that fairly cheaply.  And we missed a good opportunity to upgrade our O-Line.

 

Quan was one of my favorites on the draft thread, it was late in the process draft man crush but I even said i'd take him at 47.  So I can't complain personally.

 

But I'd have taken Mauch over him.  Mauch is a road grader -- tone setting O lineman.  High intangibles - smart player.  Perfect IMO for what they are trying to do. 

 

And I know listening to Keim getting a guard was on their shopping list on day 2.  But I am gathering they were fixated on Avila. 

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by Skinsinparadise