Next Day Thread: Giant Clustermess

[No Nonsense]

53 minutes ago, Redwards said:

Agree to disagree.  WR height has always been a coveted thing for that very reason.  It's why a lot is usually made of having a roster full of short-ish WRs.  Analysts talk about this all that time.  And as I said, it's not the total factor but it is a factor.  Heck, Ron Rivera talks about the value of height in the redzone all the time.  It's a big reason why he and Turner were excited about Cole Turner and Logan coming back.  They said so themselves.  They both talked a lot this offseason about the height advantage and how easier it makes it to score in the redzone.

 

So, yeah.  Height matters.  It certainly isn't a cure-all.  But it matters. 

 

Ridiculous?  Hardly. 

Not including McLaurin, Tyreek Hill, Justin Jefferson, Stefon Diggs, De’Vante Adams, AJ Brown, Cooper Kupp, Ja’Marr Chase, DeAndre Hopkins, Tyler Lockett and CeeDee Lamb are considered the best WR’s in the NFL. Not one is 6-3 or above. It is ridiculous to think the height of our receivers is a factor in not scoring in the red zone. 

[CousinsCowgirl84]

8 hours ago, Simmsy said:

Forget the playoffs, this team has no business even talking about playoffs anymore. You're just wasting everyone's time, even if we were to make it, we would just embarrass ourselves. Two things NEED to happen before the end of the season:

 

1. Chase Young needs to play, I don't give a **** about his mental state. The season is on the line and you decide not to play? You've wasted a year of our time, make him play and then trade him for value. Same for Logan Thomas, he is a shell of his former self, trade him while he has value. Anyways, Young is an expensive cheerleader. He reminds me of that potion that you carry with you in an RPG that you're saving for "that moment", but you never use it because you want to make sure its "there". He should be frothing at the mouth to help his team...either that or put him on IR and quit mentioning his ****ing name everyweek.

 

2. Howell needs to play, maybe not against the 49ers on such short notice, but he needs to play the last two games. He can't be THAT bad, can he? Oh yeah, we have no ****ing idea because Ron won't play him. Will he play him next year? Don't ****ing know. Put the goddamned kid in!

I thought I read somewhere that chase young doesn’t look good/lost his explosiveness/low confidence in his knee. I don’t see why we should bring him back if he isn’t 100

[Redskins 2021]

I was reading Chase Young injury was alot worse then just an Acl tear. I think it sounded like he would be out the whole year.

[petey hodge]

some of you think this was TH's fault...  well, if that makes you sleep better tonight, than ok.

 

[Est.1974]

Great write up. I totally agree on our positional needs across the roster. Our luck with officiating ran out. On balance these things tend to even out during a season. Performance largely disappointing but it’s where we are. Lots of work still needs to be done. Primary focus for me is the change of ownership. Need to get into the draft thread too. 

[KDawg]

3 hours ago, petey hodge said:

some of you think this was TH's fault...  well, if that makes you sleep better tonight, than ok.

 

It is partially on him. As the QB you have to identify the front, understand the blocking scheme, and have an idea where things might break down. When you are in an empty set you have to be super aware of things like that. 
 

Of course, Turner and the OL share some blame, too. More than Heinicke… up until the fumble part.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

5 hours ago, petey hodge said:

some of you think this was TH's fault...  well, if that makes you sleep better tonight, than ok.

 

Situational awareness, particularly near your own goal line is necessary.  Heinicke should know where Thibs is on every snap, particularly after gifting him a sack near the goal line the last game they played by failing to identify he was coming unblocked.
 

I didn’t like the playcall or Leno getting whooped either but TH is not without blame.  
 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

It is partially on him. As the QB you have to identify the front, understand the blocking scheme, and have an idea where things might break down. When you are in an empty set you have to be super aware of things like that. 
 

Of course, Turner and the OL share some blame, too. More than Heinicke… up until the fumble part.

 

Coaching defense you know this better than us.   I find it interesting that three offensive guys, Jay Gruden, Logan Paulsen and Chris Cooley can tell from watching the games that Heinicke and the center struggle adjusting protections.  And Logan in particular identified that Martinddale, the Giants D coordinator, schemes it up to exploit this weakness by shifting guys around to force them to figure out how to readjust.

 

Have you done that from a coaching stand point versus offenses that struggle to readjust protections?

Edited December 20, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[skinzplay]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

It is partially on him. As the QB you have to identify the front, understand the blocking scheme, and have an idea where things might break down. When you are in an empty set you have to be super aware of things like that. 
 

Of course, Turner and the OL share some blame, too. More than Heinicke… up until the fumble part.

 

And Keim basically said going empty that deep in your own territory was dumb, especially with a QB who doesn't get rid of the ball quickly. I partially blame #4 for this, but more so the OC. And that comment about Martindale, Cooley and Logan says all we need to know about coordinator competence. The Giants neutralized our DL with the type of offensive play calls they used. Our OC.........

Edited December 20, 2022 by skinzplay

[Skinsinparadise]

On his first fumble play, I wasn't blaming Heinicke.  But its also the drawback of having a small stature QB with relatively small hands (its not super small ala Pickett size hands) but its just over 9 inches which is on the small size.  When Heinicke gets hit especially when he doesn't see it coming its a harder car crash because of his size.

 

He's played 6 games less than the typical NFL starter this season yet he's now top 10 in the league in fumbles. 

 

Heinicke himself talked in an interview recently about being a small dude and can be prone to injury if he got hit. Said it on Cowherd.  Is that his fault?  No.  But its another drawback to have him as our starter. 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[KDawg]

5 minutes ago, skinzplay said:

 

And Keim basically said going empty that deep in your own territory was dumb, especially with a QB who doesn't get rid of the ball quickly. I partially blame #4 for this, but more so the OC. And that comment about Martindale, Cooley and Logan says all we need to know about coordinator competence. The Giants neutralized our DL with the type of offensive play calls they used. Our OC.........

I said that, didn’t I?

10 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Coaching defense you know this better than us.   I find it interesting that three offensive guys, Jay Gruden, Logan Paulsen and Chris Cooley can tell from watching the games that Heinicke and the center struggle adjusting protections.  And Logan in particular identified that Martinddale, the Giants D coordinator, schemes it up to exploit this weakness by shifting guys around to force them to figure out how to readjust.

 

Have you done that from a coaching stand point versus offenses that struggle to readjust protections?

Absolutely. Teams that stick to protections that you can predict I blitz them in ways to defeat their protections. 

[FootballZombie]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Have you done that from a coaching stand point versus offenses that struggle to readjust protections?

 

Shifts? Pffft

You know dang well every play call has to an be an attempt to impress the ladies. Otherwise @KDawg aint doing it right

 

[Skinsinparadise]

8 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Absolutely. Teams that stick to protections that you can predict I blitz them in ways to defeat their protections. 

 

That's basically the thesis of all three guys.   Logan in particular said the Giants coordinator has a beat on the protections, based on defensive alignment, he would then readjust that alignment presnap expecting that the QB-O line wouldn't readjust to that shift and bam create mismatch after mismatch.  Paulsen said the Giants ran one specific readjustment play like that multiple times, doing the same thing, yet the offense still didn't readjust and yeah he did put that some on Heinicke for not seeing it -- saying a more experienced QB wouldn't have a probem with that because to his eyes it was super obvious.

 

That was after game 1 against the Giants, I haven't heard him after this game.  But Jay zoned in on that same point as did Cooley. 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[skinzplay]

That's quite an indictment of a coaching staff that had two weeks to prepare. No excuse for that kind of ineptitude.

[IrepDC]

Quick point on the OL. I always like listening to the QB calls pre snap, and seeing if I can figure out the checks(as if I'm still playing defense). On at least one of those sacks, I recall Heinicke calling out the blitz on the left side pre-snap. I will find it on the film. He calls out the blitz from the left and the LT still blocks no one. That may have been the play where the LT had guys running past on both sides with his arms spread wide, but I need to check. There seems to be some communication issues with our blocking assignments. Maybe it's because of our rotation on the OL all year, but if the QB literally calls out blitz left pre snap, we should have a scheme to actually rotate or chip that side.

[KDawg]

29 minutes ago, IrepDC said:

Quick point on the OL. I always like listening to the QB calls pre snap, and seeing if I can figure out the checks(as if I'm still playing defense). On at least one of those sacks, I recall Heinicke calling out the blitz on the left side pre-snap. I will find it on the film. He calls out the blitz from the left and the LT still blocks no one. That may have been the play where the LT had guys running past on both sides with his arms spread wide, but I need to check. There seems to be some communication issues with our blocking assignments. Maybe it's because of our rotation on the OL all year, but if the QB literally calls out blitz left pre snap, we should have a scheme to actually rotate or chip that side.

Yes. I agree completely. Our offensive line is horrendous. And its talent and schematics. Whether that’s on the OC, personnel or the OL coach I don’t know. But they need to work it.

[Redwards]

11 hours ago, No Nonsense said:

Not including McLaurin, Tyreek Hill, Justin Jefferson, Stefon Diggs, De’Vante Adams, AJ Brown, Cooper Kupp, Ja’Marr Chase, DeAndre Hopkins, Tyler Lockett and CeeDee Lamb are considered the best WR’s in the NFL. Not one is 6-3 or above. It is ridiculous to think the height of our receivers is a factor in not scoring in the red zone. 

Who said good players regardless of height can't score TDs?  Of course they can.  

 

But we're not talking about individual players here. We're taking overall redzone effectiveness, which is a product of the collective. 

 

I just find it a bit perplexing that you casually dismiss height as a very real factor in the redzone.   Every single analyst, offensive coach and scout in the league are wrong then, when they start salivating over a tall WR or TE who has the skills to play in this league when they talk about what an asset they can be in the redzone because of height?

 

Every single one of those coaches and scouts talk all the time about how height gives them a much better match-up / chance in the end zone vs. the tall CBs playing today; how that height is an attribute that is highly coveted for that very reason.  Just listen to the analysis provided by former and current coaches and GMs leading up to the draft alone on this issue.  Again, it's most certainly not a cure-all, but it's a legit factor that is discussed ad nauseam by the NFL community.  

 

I don't know if you have enough interest to watch the Scouting Combine (it can get tedious), but when the WRs and TEs are up, they talk about this issue all the time.  Ron himself gushed over Taylor at TE and what a great redzone matchup he can be vs. CBs because of his hands and height just this past offseason.  He was literally talking about how his height can be an elixir for our continued woes down there.  

 

If you just don't agree, then it's no skin off my back.  However, (and I don't mean this in a combative tone) I'd appreciate you not making such a rude assertion that it's "ridiculous" to think lack of height contributes to redzone issues a lot of times.  It does.  The entire league has this view.  

 

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Redwards

[Skinsinparadise]

Just listened to Logan Paulsen's round 1 take of the game.  He does a deeper dive on Wendesday.

 

In short, Turner in the first half tried to model the Eagles game plan which the Giants struggled to stop.  Logan got the method to the madness but it didn't work because they did a poor job executing it.  They went heavier RO and RPO among other Eagles wrinkles.

 

In the 2nd half, they abandoned that and went to same old same old and it worked much better. Logan was jazzed about some of the twists added to the offense in that 2nd half but didn't elaborate on what they were.  I guess he will on Wed.  So if I had to come with a positive takeaway from it -- it was sort of implied that Turner came up with some wrinkles that he was jazzed about that could help this offense moving forward.

 

He graded Heinicke on the scale of 100 a 55.    

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Yeah, I’ve been railing on the RO stuff relentlessly.  1/4 times Heinicke did the right thing, and guess which time that was?  When he kept it and ran for a first down.

 

The other 3 he handed off and put us behind the sticks each time, while if he kept was nothing but green grass.  Clearly even after the first one they weren’t buying that he was going to run and they guessed right.  
 

It really is Pop Warner stuff, which leads me to believe he simply doesn’t want to run it as opposed to doesn’t know what to do.

 

That game should be the final nail in the coffin for those whining that Turner doesn’t run more of that for Heinicke. 

[KDawg]

8 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Yeah, I’ve been railing on the RO stuff relentlessly.  1/4 times Heinicke did the right thing, and guess which time that was?  When he kept it and ran for a first down.

 

The other 3 he handed off and put us behind the sticks each time, while if he kept was nothing but green grass.  Clearly even after the first one they weren’t buying that he was going to run and they guessed right.  
 

It really is Pop Warner stuff, which leads me to believe he simply doesn’t want to run it as opposed to doesn’t know what to do.

 

That game should be the final nail in the coffin for those whining that Turner doesn’t run more of that for Heinicke. 

Read option is a lot harder than people think it is when it comes to reading an end. The way they rush/play can vary down to down. Sometimes it may look like they are crashing but they are giving a false read because of the RO. Defenses don't make it easy. Some guys are great at running it and setting it up. Guys who are larger threats to run as a QB get more respect and less games from the read players, too. Because they have to contain the rush. Heinicke isn't exactly a major threat for a few reasons, so they mess with him more.

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

3 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Read option is a lot harder than people think it is when it comes to reading an end. The way they rush/play can vary down to down. Sometimes it may look like they are crashing but they are giving a false read because of the RO. Defenses don't make it easy. Some guys are great at running it and setting it up. Guys who are larger threats to run as a QB get more respect and less games from the read players, too. Because they have to contain the rush. Heinicke isn't exactly a major threat for a few reasons, so they mess with him more.

 

 

One thing is certain, Heinicke absolutely sucks at it, whether it’s want to or don’t know how to.

[Warhead36]

Thank God we can put an end to the "RUN MORE RPO" non sense. Not only is Heinicke not fast/explosive enough for it to really be a threat, he doesn't know the ball handling/reading the DL aspect of it. Like most things, he isn't competent at this. 

 

[Dan T.]

Jay Gruden on the late game, goal line call against Terry McLaurin:

 

[Dan T.]

And ex-NFL official and rules analyst Dean Blandino:

 

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

The Giants fans on twitter with KaYvOn gOt EyEpOkEd!!!! can **** all the way off to **** off ville.  And then they can get on a plane from **** off airlines and fly to **** off island where they can get on a **** off cruise ship and sail the **** off sea for a whole 10 days.