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Next Day Thread: Giant Clustermess


KDawg

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1 hour ago, KDawg said:

Read option is a lot harder than people think it is when it comes to reading an end. The way they rush/play can vary down to down. Sometimes it may look like they are crashing but they are giving a false read because of the RO. Defenses don't make it easy. Some guys are great at running it and setting it up. Guys who are larger threats to run as a QB get more respect and less games from the read players, too. Because they have to contain the rush. Heinicke isn't exactly a major threat for a few reasons, so they mess with him more.

 

 

Yeah, those screen shots don’t do much for me - if the DE plants and redirects, he’s probably leveling the qb.  That’s not to say Heinicke shouldn’t have kept it at times, but as you allude to - it’s a little dicey.
I’ll add though that while I’m a fan of Heinicke’s play fakes, he doesn’t seem all that comfortable with RO.  He didn’t run it in college, right?  Of course he’s also not the biggest of guys.  
 

Sort of random, but one play I liked that we ran a while back, which we haven’t seen since - the qb option pitch to Samuel.  

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35 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Yeah, those screen shots don’t do much for me - if the DE plants and redirects, he’s probably leveling the qb.  That’s not to say Heinicke shouldn’t have kept it at times, but as you allude to - it’s a little dicey.
I’ll add though that while I’m a fan of Heinicke’s play fakes, he doesn’t seem all that comfortable with RO.  He didn’t run it in college, right?  Of course he’s also not the biggest of guys.  
 

Sort of random, but one play I liked that we ran a while back, which we haven’t seen since - the qb option pitch to Samuel.  

It’s not just the screen shots, it was obvious to anyone with eyes watching the game.  I’m sure I have gameday thread posts whining about it.

 

He either sucks ass at it or doesn’t want to to keep it.  That much is clear as day.  

 

The one time he did keep it, looked just like those screenshots and he had nothing but daylight for 10+ yards.

 

The tape is not kind to Heinicke, not just the RO stuff, there are plenty of others plays that he squandered where if he hits his back foot and makes the throw - it’s $.  The only excuse I can come up with is he’s having a hard time seeing the middle of the field due to his height.

Edited by BatteredFanSyndrome
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8 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

The screen shots don't show enough?  They show the DE biting on the hand off.  What else do they need to show? 

 

Again, it's a lot different watching it from there versus on the field. Heinicke isn't a tall guy. So he has to navigate that. He sees the defender and he's not share if the defender is faking him out or truly crashing. Ends are smart. They know they can mess with a QB's reads by disguising what they are doing and at times dictate what the QB actually does. That doesn't mean they can't be fooled.

 

I'm not sticking up for Heinicke necessarily here. But I have seen people try to run this stuff a lot in my coaching tenure and I can tell you that if it was easy it's all anyone would ever run at any level of football. It's not easy. The reads can be tough. 

 

The guys who are good at it just have a knack for it. And generally they are either total statues (so when they keep it its an absolute shock) or they are athletes and the ends aren't going to play games with them. It's hard to run it with a guy who is known for having the ability to use his legs but mostly a statue because the defense knows that QB is shark chum and they can dictate what he does 9/10 times.

 

The play he kept it Thibs crashed harder and Heinicke was out the back gate.

 

But if that is a cloudier read it's a tough decision.

 

We can talk about it from our camera view perspective all day. But trust me, it's a lot different on the field. 

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36 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

It’s not just the screen shots, it was obvious to anyone with eyes watching the game.  I’m sure I have gameday thread posts whining about it.

 

He either sucks ass at it or doesn’t want to to keep it.  That much is clear as day.  

 

The one time he did keep it, looked just like those screenshots and he had nothing but daylight for 10+ yards.

 

The tape is not kind to Heinicke, not just the RO stuff, there are plenty of others plays that he squandered where if he hits his back foot and makes the throw - it’s $.  The only excuse I can come up with is he’s having a hard time seeing the middle of the field due to his height.

Sure, but just because there’s open field, doesn’t mean the DE isn’t a threat to take that inside step and then redirect to the qb.  And of course, it depends on what type of end you’re playing.  If it’s a guy like Kerrigan, a qb with some burst can elude even if the end is trying to get the qb to bite on the keeper.  The Giants DE looks pretty darn athletic though, so you risk getting blasted if you see that step towards the back and think you’ve got him.  Again, doesn’t mean Heinicke was right to not keep it, just that it’s a lot tougher call than those screen shots (or daylight upfield) suggest.  And as I said before, it’s quite possible Heinicke just isn’t very comfortable with RO.

 

I completely understand not wanting to take my word for it, but I’m pretty comfortable with my take if @KDawgis saying a similar thing.🤷‍♂️

 

As for the tape not being kind to TH, I’m not surprised.  I put this game in a similar space to Wentz’ post the oline issues - they both absolutely could/should have done better, but the pressure seemed to get to both of them.  Turner did some good things to try to help both of them, but also had some glaring misses in terms of play calls (although, to be fair, it can’t be easy scheming/play calling around terrible pass pro and limited qbs).

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15 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

I completely understand not wanting to take my word for it, but I’m pretty comfortable with my take if @KDawgis saying a similar thing.🤷‍♂️

My point isn’t really anything more than it’s just another log in the suck fire for Taylor.

 

We’ve often heard that Turner needs to call more read option and bootlegs for TH, which has happened and the results stink.

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Situational awareness, particularly near your own goal line is necessary.  Heinicke should know where Thibs is on every snap, particularly after gifting him a sack near the goal line the last game they played by failing to identify he was coming unblocked.
 

I didn’t like the playcall or Leno getting whooped either but TH is not without blame.  
 

 

Im sorry but we didnt even chip #5 off the line on that play near the goal line.  Thats bad play calling.  Its like we didnt even know who #5 was.  All you had to do was watch 10 mins of a Giants game this season and you would know that you have to block this guy. But have no idea who he is....

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Just now, NeverSurrender said:

Im sorry but we didnt even chip #5 off the line on that play near the goal line.  Thats bad play calling.  It’s like we didnt even know who #5 was.  All you had to do was watch 10 mins of a Giants game this season and you would know that you have to block this guy. But have no idea who he is....

I didn’t like the playcall or Leno’s execution or that TH often seems oblivious to where the pressure is coming from.

 

I think we agree on 2 of 3, but it’s clear you will ‘never surrender’ on TH being a liability in his own right. 

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1 hour ago, KDawg said:

The guys who are good at it just have a knack for it. And generally they are either total statues (so when they keep it its an absolute shock) or they are athletes and the ends aren't going to play games with them. It's hard to run it with a guy who is known for having the ability to use his legs but mostly a statue because the defense knows that QB is shark chum and they can dictate what he does 9/10 times.

 

The play he kept it Thibs crashed harder and Heinicke was out the back gate.

 

Thats a good point.

 

If your RG3 or Lamar Jackson, running the read option is easier b/c ends cant afford to gamble. They almost have to fully commit one way or the other. If you shade the RB even w/ the eye on the QB vs them, your giving up 15 yards.

 

Of course this is also another feather in the cap of keeping TH far away from the read option. Not only is he not good at it, its significantly harder for someone like him.

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3 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Yeah, I’ve been railing on the RO stuff relentlessly.  1/4 times Heinicke did the right thing, and guess which time that was?  When he kept it and ran for a first down.

 

The other 3 he handed off and put us behind the sticks each time, while if he kept was nothing but green grass.  Clearly even after the first one they weren’t buying that he was going to run and they guessed right.  
 

It really is Pop Warner stuff, which leads me to believe he simply doesn’t want to run it as opposed to doesn’t know what to do.

 

That game should be the final nail in the coffin for those whining that Turner doesn’t run more of that for Heinicke. 

 

The irony is the one time I recall he kept it is was a big play.  For the few who claim its the team not Heinicke shackling himself from running -- here is some more to add to the pile that the lack of running is self imposed.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/12/19/commanders-quarterback-taylor-heinicke-ron-rivera/?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=wp_sports&utm_source=twitter

 

Rivera’s messaging has been consistent if repetitive: The Commanders had opportunities and did not take advantage, a refrain he returned to many times after Sunday night’s disappointing loss in a pivotal NFC East matchup.

They had “several opportunities” to make plays on both sides of the ball. They had an opportunity to win it, “a couple opportunities” to turn the Giants back on defense, opportunities for Heinicke to use his legs to pick up first downs and opportunities to run the ball more — which could’ve opened up more opportunities to use play-action, he said.

 

 

And he referenced the protections

 

“One of our priorities going into this game is that we’ve got to make sure we’re shored up in terms of running the ball and then understanding in terms of our protections versus some of the things that they try to do,”

 

 

and red zone

 

As Rivera noted, sticking with the running game can be difficult when you’re trailing by 11 points, as Washington was at halftime, and trying to play catch-up.

“Unfortunately, the circumstances did dictate some other things,” Rivera said. “But, yeah, I would’ve loved to continue to see if we could have fed [Robinson] — especially if we could have taken advantage of scoring in the red zone, because then the game would’ve been closer.”

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I didn’t like the playcall or Leno’s execution or that TH often seems oblivious to where the pressure is coming from.

 

I think we agree on 2 of 3, but it’s clear you will ‘never surrender’ on TH being a liability in his own right. 

TH played pretty good the other night, first 1/2 was rough but he made some very good throws including a dime of a 10-15 yard out that everyone here says he cant throw and a 61 yard completion down the middle of the field.   Please tell me the better option on the team.  Its not Wentz, good lord he would have been sacked 15 times and we know nothing about Howell.  Th is not great or even good but were you this critical of Wentz?  I mean, he had a game where he didnt break 100 yards.  If TH did that, you would probably have to clean out your pants.

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9 minutes ago, NeverSurrender said:

TH played pretty good the other night

Ryan Gosling Lol GIF
 

Now Wentz would be sacked 15 times, as opposed to the 10 you used to quote.

 

Fitting screen name.

 

TH is always “not great or even good” as a disclaimer but then he makes 2 plays and he “played pretty good”.  Played pretty good for who?

 

 

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2 minutes ago, NeverSurrender said:

You are so convinced of your own genius its comical.  58% completion 249 yards and a TD.  We moved the ball very effectively in the second half, just didn't finish drives.  

You’re missing 2 fumbles, 2 lost, TD allowed to add to that stat line.

 

Heinicke didn’t play pretty good. He’s 32/32 and that’s starters. Include backups and he is further back than that. 
 

We need to stop excusing him because he makes some good plays. Which he certainly does. But his play as a whole is way below par.

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Just now, KDawg said:

You’re missing 2 fumbles, 2 lost, TD allowed to add to that stat line.

 

Heinicke didn’t play pretty good. He’s 32/32 and that’s starters. Include backups and he is further back than that. 
 

We need to stop excusing him because he makes some good plays. Which he certainly does. But his play as a whole is way below par.

Im not excusing him at all.  Im seeing a guy that has us in every game and has a knack for driving us down the field when the game is on the line.  Im not putting that fumble at the goal line on TH.  Every QB in every game has plays where things go wrong, lets not forget that.  You can be critical all you want but most aren't giving him credit when we win.  I think he might just have to throw for 300+ and rush for another 100 before any of you guys say he had a good game. 

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9 minutes ago, NeverSurrender said:

Im not excusing him at all.  Im seeing a guy that has us in every game and has a knack for driving us down the field when the game is on the line.  Im not putting that fumble at the goal line on TH.  Every QB in every game has plays where things go wrong, lets not forget that.  You can be critical all you want but most aren't giving him credit when we win.  I think he might just have to throw for 300+ and rush for another 100 before any of you guys say he had a good game. 


Other QBs have more wiggle room to allow for mistakes. Being a QB does not allow for equal treatment for all. They are not all the same. That needs to be understood and grasped.

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22 minutes ago, NeverSurrender said:

You are so convinced of your own genius its comical.  58% completion 249 yards and a TD.  We moved the ball very effectively in the second half, just didn't finish drives.  

There is absolutely zero genius in determining Heinicke overall plays subpar football and that when we win, he’s being carried by everyone else.  Even when he moxies it up at the end of games, he’s making up for sucking the other 58 minutes.

 

By no stretch of the imagination do I think this analysis makes me some kind of football savant, it just means I’m sane.

Edited by BatteredFanSyndrome
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Sorry, but I don't need to hear another word out of Rivera's mouth, its all fluff or useless lies. Sure, he may say he knows what we did wrong, but does anyone have any faith that he can actually learn from this and turn it around. I'm pretty sure we just tied with the Giants, had a bye week, came back with our season on the line (against the Giants again) and laid a big fat, ****ing egg on both sides of the ball. Rivera's words have as much worth as a $3 bill.

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6 minutes ago, Simmsy said:

Sorry, but I don't need to hear another word out of Rivera's mouth, its all fluff or useless lies. Sure, he may say he knows what we did wrong, but does anyone have any faith that he can actually learn from this and turn it around. I'm pretty sure we just tied with the Giants, had a bye week, came back with our season on the line (against the Giants again) and laid a big fat, ****ing egg on both sides of the ball. Rivera's words have as much worth as a $3 bill.

It’s a shame he can’t play QB or offensive line.

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3 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I’m curious what you believe he needed to do differently. 

 

I've exhausted this over several posts, over several topics, I don't feel like going into detail again. Partially because I don't care what he does at this point and from your previous post, it seems like you think he doesn't deserve the blame. The least he could do at this point (I literally mean LEAST he could do) is at least be straight with the fans and give us a chance at the future. Put Howell in after 49ers.

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2 minutes ago, Simmsy said:

 

I've exhausted this over several posts, over several topics, I don't feel like going into detail again. Partially because I don't care what he does at this point and from your previous post, it seems like you think he doesn't deserve the blame. The least he could do at this point (I literally mean LEAST he could do) is at least be straight with the fans and give us a chance at the future. Put Howell in after 49ers.

I’m not going to go searching for your rants across the forum.

 

The only big thing I can tie back to Ron as for blame is more on him as a GM rather than a coach.  The offensive line has been a mess and that’s on him and the Marty’s.

 

 

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33 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I’m not going to go searching for your rants across the forum.

 

The only big thing I can tie back to Ron as for blame is more on him as a GM rather than a coach.  The offensive line has been a mess and that’s on him and the Marty’s.

 

 

 

You won't need too, once the hating on the refs passes over and everyone realizes that we can't score points and we're repeating the same exact thing, year after year, with the same failure...you'll be seeing mirroring rants all over the board.

 

As importat as that game was, with all the begging for our support, they put out that product? What a shameful and embarrassing display! Any goodwill toward this FO turning this team into something special has been well past used up and its time for results. Something has to change, if Rivera won't change it, than Rivera is that change that needs to happen.

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