Next Day Thread: Giant Clustermess

[FootballZombie]

2 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

My biggest pet peeve of fan coaching analysis is the coach’s demeanor on the sidelines and what they say in the post game presser.

 

The players DGAF whether Ron slams his headset.  That’s just ****ing for the sake of ****ing.

 

I think that is a carry-over from watching coaches in other sports and applying it to football, where the same standards don't really apply. I know I'm guilty of if. Sometimes I wanna see my head coach just go full krakatoa, but losing control like that is seriously frowned upon for football coaches.

 

In other sports, coaches have it as a valid tool in the toolbox. Sometimes the skipper needs to come out of the dugout and kick some dirt on homeplate, just letting the ump know you disrespect his whole family. Every once in a while in basketball, there comes a time when a coach just has to pick up a tech or get himself ejected, to send a message to his players.

 

You do stuff like that in football however, and you are Ken Dorsey. Everybody wags the finger at you for losing your cool.

 

 

Or your Kyle Shannahan, running down refs in the tunnel. No bueno.

Edited December 19, 2022 by FootballZombie

[El Mexican]

How can the O-Line be so bad in passing downs?

 

I saw Giants LBs and DEs get in TH's grill even during shootgun formation. That's absurd.

[NoVaSkins21]

This team has basically maxed out their potential.  They're already at 7 wins which the most wins a Ron Rivera led has ever gotten during his 3 seasons. Daboll ran circles around Rivera.  Going for it on the 4th and 9 said that he's a better coach than Rivera and he wasn't going to be stopped.  2 weeks to prepare for the same opponent and they were completely DEAD FLAT.  That team last night looked like the Redskins teams of the past that were always dominated by the opponent @ home in a PrimeTime game.  Nothing has changed  Their top 5 DE ran circles around this OL and made a game-changing play while this team's top 5 pick DE will decide when he wants to play.  QB play was horrendous outside of one drive and this team is looking into this abyss again going into next year trying to find the answer.  Offensive play calling was a joke outside of one drive.  This team had an opportunity to show the whole country they were ready to take the next step, but instead showed that they're the same ol' Redskins

Edited December 19, 2022 by NoVaSkins21

[Zim489]

4 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

I don't really get why

Logan is on the wrong side of 30 after a major knee surgery. This isnt terribly surprising. Kinda easily predicted honestly. TE is a notoriously slow position for development. Bates was billed as a blocking TE playing 40% of snaps with only 22 targets the entire season. Turner is completely invisible with 20% of snaps. I thought both would give a bit more but really it boils down to Logan being hurt and aging. 

[skinzplay]

The QB situation is definitely unsustainable, and RR's rationale for continuing to play Heinicke no longer holds water. Not a drop.

 

Scott Turner is HORRIBLE. It's like he's calling a completely different game than the one where the Skins are playing. It's really bizarre.

[FootballZombie]

I kinda have to assume C. Samuel had family at the game b/c his role was written into the gameplan w/ a permanent marker. Whether it worked or not, it was gonna happen. The Giants D looked like they spent 2 weeks hyper-focusing on Sam's potential runs and they keyed hard on every one.

 

TH did what he always does, which is produce turnover worthy plays at an astronomical rate. That was not surprising at all. That almost INT in the EZ at the end of the game might have been one of the worse QB decisions I have ever seen tho. Inexcusable gaff. A play that bad gets most people a one way ticket to the bench.

 

The D was not spectacular, but they only gave up 13 points. Can't ask a whole lot more of them, they did their job at the end of the day.

[CapsSkins]

[skinsmarydu]

I'm thoroughly pissed. 

And that's all I've got to say about that.  I was ranting about it to my massage therapist *her husband & I discuss football, he's a Steelers fan, we all watched the Bus & Troy together back in the day*...but she really had to keep me calm cuz I was damn near having a fit when I got there.  I'm still not over it, but...****, now I'm pissed off again.

[No Nonsense]

It’s just startling that we’re the only team that just never have our way for 4 quarters. Even bad teams put it although every now and then. The Colts might have lost, but at least they were putting it on Minnesota for a half. 
 

If it doesn’t work out in Baltimore, Washington has to be all in on Lamar. As much as I’d hate to lose Daron Payne, his contract cannot stand in the way of getting an elite QB. 

[Leonard Washington]

I'd put in Wentz to finish the season at least to see if he offers more with our current gameplan.  Howell is going to be on the squad regardless.  We know who Taylor is.  If he finds another team, great.  If he comes back great. 

 

RR should have smacked the turds out of Turner for not at least showing run on the last play.  I would have played to our "identity" in that situation.  I find it hard to believe they can stop #8 on two plays straight.

[Voice_of_Reason]

4 hours ago, veteranskinsfan said:

Hey Ron- How about showing some emotion at the end of the game when we got two flags?  How about throwing down your headset while talking to the

officials?  Next game do something to show your players you are fighting for them.

I mean, he was screaming at the refs the entire game.  The next step would have been to deck one of them.  I’m not sure it would have worked out in his favor….

 

Tirico even commented Ron was in “heated discussions” with the refs several times….

[GoDeep81]

Im still salty. There's bad reffing and missed calls but that **** was ridiculous. All.night.long. 

[SpacePenguin]

If you thought the officiating was bad in this game (and it was), then just wait for how blatant it's gonna be in Week 18 vs Dallas.

 

I'm tempted to throw a bet down myself, since the NFL is more a vehicle for gambling than a sport at this point.

 

This team isn't doing anything in the playoffs with the current coaching staff, sieve of an OL, or QB room anyways, so don't get me wrong. It doesn't matter for the Commies that the games are mildly fixed this season, just makes me wonder whether it's worth watching moving forward.

Edited December 19, 2022 by SpacePenguin

[NoCalMike]

It's like everyone forgot last season when after rattling off a handful of wins, the same thing happened with Heinicke.  That is what happens when a QB2 who's ceiling is QB2 plays for an extended amount of time.   No matter how much experience he gets, how many reps, how many film rooms, his ceiling is not rising.

[Redwards]

6 hours ago, KDawg said:

Taylor Heinicke was responsible for two major turnovers, both inside the scoring zones (one in ours, one in theirs) and directly contributed to 7 points for the Giants. He also had an interception that was dropped that has graciously allowed us to complain about poor officiating instead of putting the focus on a player that deserves criticism: Taylor Heinicke.

 

Having said that, if Scott Turner calls another inside run to Curtis Samuel, or insists on a ridiculous number of WR run attempts ever again I may drop kick a baby seal (I'm kidding. I'd never drop kick a baby seal. I'm not athletic enough at my age and nor do I wish to harm any of our friends in the animal kingdom, this is an analogy for being frustrated). Empty set inside our own 5 yard line? Bold strategy, Cotton. But it didn't pay off. 

 

Also, our offensive line has five players that are replacement level with Cosmi being the only wild card.

 

Going to sidetrack away from this game and onto the team for a moment, but I find us to be in a bad spot. We refused to play Howell, which means unless Rivera decides to get bold, we won't see him this year. That means, that without even seeing Howell in action, we will need to be in the QB market next year unless they think Howell is the second coming of Montana in practice. We run the risk of starting Heinicke (who is a FA) or Howell (who I'm high on but we've never seen in a pro regular season game) or keeping Wentz to the tune of $28M. We could try to bring him back at a reduced salary, but they refuse to play him even when Heinicke isn't playing well so that would be a really odd decision. 

 

Our offensive line needs replacement across the board.

 

Our wide receivers are fantastic. Dyami Brown has found his stride as WR4 and the top three go without saying. That Dotson catch last night was surreal. 

 

Our tight ends are beyond disappointing. 

 

Our running backs are solid.

 

Defensively we need another corner, though our corner play has been at worst average since we got rid of Jackson. Our safeties are solid. We have one good linebacker (Davis), one FA (Holcomb who I view as a backup). We need at least one starting piece there.

 

Our DTs are among the top duos in the league. But our defensive ends should be on milk cartons. One of the two could and should be traded this offseason. I'd opt for Sweat because Young has an extra year on his deal and we invested more in him. 

 

Can't expect high end talent at every position but TE, OT, OG, C, ILB is way below par. Edge is overpriced vs. production. 

 

But the biggest issue, and one we don't seem to have any real plan to remedy is the quarterback spot. I'd start Howell. Yes, even against SF. But we know that isn't going to happen. 

 

Of course the McLaurin penalty needs to be mentioned. By rule, it was a penalty. However, given that he checked with the official and the way the rule is interpreted I don't believe it should have been called. McLaurin was even with the OT. The Head Ref said that you have to break the belt line of the center to be considered as being on the LoS. That is accurate. However, Terry was in line with the OT, who was considered to be on the LoS. When there is a tight end they are next to the OT and considered on the LoS. So the rule is bent and negotiated in that way all the time. In this situation, on a rule that is never called by the book, I don't know why they'd call it by the book.

 

And don't get me started on the pass interference call on the last play.

 

Having said all that, we aren't in those positions if Heinicke's horse shoe didn't prevent the Giant DB from catching the pick on the play before the McLaurin play. Yes, there was a bad snap. But Heinicke didn't even bother to look. Caught and threw that thing without reading a single variable. 

 

On the drive after the Heinicke fumble (not the touchdown fumble, the other one) the defense came out and got run over by the Giants. It was evident on that drive that the defense had realized that with Heinicke at QB their chances of winning were diminishing and they came out flat. The moxie magic is wearing off.

 

I'm sure I left some stuff off. Feel free to discuss. I'll add thoughts I have as we go. 

 

 

Studs and Duds:

*** - Kam Curl - He doesn't miss tackles and he hasn't been given the credit he deserves on a week to week basis.

*** - Jahan Dotson

*** - Brian Robinson

*** - Tress Way

** - Terry McLaurin

*  - Darrick Forrest

* - Danny Johnson

   - Scott Turner

   - Taylor Heinicke

   - The entire OL (whatever combo it was this week)

 

 

Season to date:

* x 19 - Daron Payne

* x 18 - Terry McLaurin

* x 15 - Jon Allen

* x 11 - Jahan Dotson

* x 11 - Brian Robinson

* x 9 - Curtis Samuel

* x 8 - Darrick Forrest

* x 7 - Montez Sweat

* x 7 - Antonio Gibson

* x 7 - Jamin Davis

* x 6 - Benjamin St-Juste

* x 5 - Kam Curl

* x 5 - Kendall Fuller

* x 3 - Tress Way

* x 3- Dyami Brown

* x 3 - Back Judge in Vikings Game

* x 3 - Jack Del Rio

* x 2 - Joey Slye

* x 1 - Danny Johnson

* x 1 - Scott Turner

* x 1 - Rachad Wildgoose

* x 1 - James Smith-Williams

* x 1 - Jonathan Williams

* x 1 - John Bates

 x 1 - Wes Schweitzer

 x 1 - Jon Bostic

 x 3 - Taylor Heinicke

 x 3 - Cam Sims

 x 3 - Entire OL (whatever iteration in Giants Game II)

 x 4 - Scott Turner

 x 4 - John Ridgeway

 x 4 -Rivera's Clock Management

 x 5 - Charles Leno

 x 5 - Trai Turner

 x 6 - Nick Martin

 x 6 - WJ3

 x 7 - Sam Cosmi

 x 8 - Andrew Norwell

There is one problem with our WRs as a whole, and it's something that just can't be fixed: height.  It's a major reason our redzone offense stinks.  Not the only reason, but we just do not have tall targets there, and that's something that MUST be remedied if we're gonna take a step forward in that area.  

 

Our TEs are an absolute mess - something I've been talking about for what seems like forever.  Bates can block really well.  That's about all we have at the position.  It's a total reboot.  

 

O line needs to be completely rebuilt, as you mentioned.  I'm telling you....man...that's just freaking inexcusable in Year 3 of a coach's tenure.  Especially when said coach has the FO power Ron does.  

 

QB is never getting fixed under Ron.  Give that guy 10 years and it still won't be settled.  He and his FO have zero clue how to fix it, IMO.  I've seen nothing from them that even remotely suggests they have the collective brainpower to get this franchise where it needs to be.  

 

As soon as feasible, the new owner (if there is one) needs to jettison everyone.  We've barely moved an inch as a team in 3 years.  Ron's just not getting it done.  

Edited December 20, 2022 by Redwards

[Spaceman Spiff]

@KDawggreat writeup. 
 

I’m typing from my phone which I hate, but it saves you guys from reading a longer post. So you can thank me, I suppose. 
 

I do believe Heinicke has turned into a pumpkin and his time is up.  We should have been able to beat the Giants yesterday with an average offense but that was a below average output and significantly so. The defense got gashed a little but made the adjustments necessary. 
 

Heinicke, as usual, made some brilliant throws when it counted but it was too little, too late to dig us out of a hole that he was largely responsible for. 
 

I feel like Turner is the Heinicke of offensive play calling. Looks great at times, has quite a few “dude, what the ****?!” moments and doesn’t always play to his strengths. I feel like the run game was working well, especially with Robinson. The plays to Samuel weren’t working and he kept going to them for some inexplicable reason. Kind of like how Heinicke will throw into coverage and get lucky that a pick gets dropped. Heinicke’s back there and he’s like “I’ll ****in do it again!” and I think Turner was the same way last night with Samuel running the ball. “Watch me ****ing do it again!”

 

If the goal is to make Samuel a home run hitter, he needs to be catching passes in space where he can get a block or two, make a tackler miss and create something. It’s not running the ball out of the backfield, except maybe on a sweep or an end-around. 
 

And I felt like that’s what Turner was doing, kinda hoping to catch some lightning in a bottle on a run play with Samuel. Dude, Robinson is doing enough damage, just keep giving it to him. Robinson should have had 125+ yards last night. 
 

Anyway, our playoff chances are greatly diminished and I’m assuming they’ll be completely shut when the 49ers destroy our will to live next weekend. I don’t care who starts next week, Heinicke or Wentz, it doesn’t matter. But if they lose next week I want to see Howell for the last two games. 
 

in regards to the refs, **** them for ****ing Terry on that bull**** formation call and then for the no-call on the PI in the end zone. 
 

But I will say this about that; it shouldn’t have come down to letting the zebras decide the game for us. In all my years of being on ES, the fans on this board think the refs (quoting Earl Weaver here) have been sent here just to **** us. And I think every fan base thinks that way about the refs, that their team, no matter who they’re rooting for is getting ****ed.  So we’re not special in that regard. 
 

My point is that I hope in the future we’re not always walking on a tightrope in a situation where the refs blow calls like that late and essentially ruin our season. Yes, those two calls killed us but we only scored 12 points and gave away 7.  That hurts more than any blown call. 
 

Once again, what a ****ing disappointment. I should have known better. Late season, prime time game against a division rival with playoff implications on the line…I’m not surprised. 
 

I’ll leave you with this: I was wrong about Dotson when we drafted him. I initially blasted the pick but I’m thrilled to be wrong. He is special. 

[The Rook]

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Rook

[No Nonsense]

10 minutes ago, Redwards said:

There is one problem with our WRs as a whole, and it's something that just can't be fixed: height.  It's a major reason our redzone offense stinks.  Not the only reason, but we just do not have tall targets there, and that's something that MUST be remedied if we're gonna take a step forward in that area.  

That’s ridiculous. Some of you want to blame everybody but Taylor. You’re grasping at straws to put the blame on the height of our receivers for out ineptitude on the goal line. I can give you the name of elite receivers in the NFL that aren’t tall that regularly score TD’s. Play calling might have something to do with it, but so doesn’t our QB who has accuracy issues and have trouble seeing the whole field. 

[ClaytoAli]

 

29 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

I feel like Turner is the Heinicke of offensive play calling. Looks great at times, has quite a few “dude, what the ****?!” moments and doesn’t always play to his strengths.

He is more like the Tim Tebow of offense play calling

[Rufus T Firefly]

2 minutes ago, ClaytoAli said:

 

He is more like the Tim Tebow of offense play calling

[El Mexican]

3 hours ago, No Nonsense said:

If it doesn’t work out in Baltimore, Washington has to be all in on Lamar. As much as I’d hate to lose Daron Payne, his contract cannot stand in the way of getting an elite QB. 

 

No. There's no way any QB succeeds here with this joke of an O-Line.

 

It doesn't matter if you resurrect Joe Montana, hire Brady, Lamar or Mahomes.

 

Every single one of them will inevitably fail here bc our O-Line cannot pass protect. They can run block pretty well, though.

[Redwards]

26 minutes ago, No Nonsense said:

That’s ridiculous. Some of you want to blame everybody but Taylor. You’re grasping at straws to put the blame on the height of our receivers for out ineptitude on the goal line. I can give you the name of elite receivers in the NFL that aren’t tall that regularly score TD’s. Play calling might have something to do with it, but so doesn’t our QB who has accuracy issues and have trouble seeing the whole field. 

Agree to disagree.  WR height has always been a coveted thing for that very reason.  It's why a lot is usually made of having a roster full of short-ish WRs.  Analysts talk about this all that time.  And as I said, it's not the total factor but it is a factor.  Heck, Ron Rivera talks about the value of height in the redzone all the time.  It's a big reason why he and Turner were excited about Cole Turner and Logan coming back.  They said so themselves.  They both talked a lot this offseason about the height advantage and how easier it makes it to score in the redzone.

 

So, yeah.  Height matters.  It certainly isn't a cure-all.  But it matters. 

 

Ridiculous?  Hardly. 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Redwards

[El Mexican]

1 hour ago, NoCalMike said:

It's like everyone forgot last season when after rattling off a handful of wins, the same thing happened with Heinicke.  That is what happens when a QB2 who's ceiling is QB2 plays for an extended amount of time.   No matter how much experience he gets, how many reps, how many film rooms, his ceiling is not rising.

 

Ok, but the O-line is actually sinking. We need guys who can pass protect.

Either  that or RR wants mauls every team by running 50+ times a game and expects no mistakes by his QBs.

[Csup]

33 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

 

But I will say this about that; it shouldn’t have come down to letting the zebras decide the game for us. In all my years of being on ES, the fans on this board think the refs (quoting Earl Weaver here) have been sent here just to **** us. And I think every fan base thinks that way about the refs, that their team, no matter who they’re rooting for is getting ****ed.  So we’re not special in that regard. 
 

I go onto other forums to talk football or just see what other fans are talking about.  And you are absolutely right - every fan base thinks the refs are out to get them.   I guess it's a fan thing.   But bad calls more or less evens out in the end.  

[BleedBNG]

2 hours ago, GoDeep81 said:

Im still salty. There's bad reffing and missed calls but that **** was ridiculous. All.night.long. 

Even a couple of Giant fans agreed there were a lot of ticky tack calls and an obvious holding in the end zone.