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Next Day Thread: Giant Clustermess


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Taylor Heinicke was responsible for two major turnovers, both inside the scoring zones (one in ours, one in theirs) and directly contributed to 7 points for the Giants. He also had an interception that was dropped that has graciously allowed us to complain about poor officiating instead of putting the focus on a player that deserves criticism: Taylor Heinicke.


Having said that, if Scott Turner calls another inside run to Curtis Samuel, or insists on a ridiculous number of WR run attempts ever again I may drop kick a baby seal (I'm kidding. I'd never drop kick a baby seal. I'm not athletic enough at my age and nor do I wish to harm any of our friends in the animal kingdom, this is an analogy for being frustrated). Empty set inside our own 5 yard line? Bold strategy, Cotton. But it didn't pay off. 


Also, our offensive line has five players that are replacement level with Cosmi being the only wild card.


Going to sidetrack away from this game and onto the team for a moment, but I find us to be in a bad spot. We refused to play Howell, which means unless Rivera decides to get bold, we won't see him this year. That means, that without even seeing Howell in action, we will need to be in the QB market next year unless they think Howell is the second coming of Montana in practice. We run the risk of starting Heinicke (who is a FA) or Howell (who I'm high on but we've never seen in a pro regular season game) or keeping Wentz to the tune of $28M. We could try to bring him back at a reduced salary, but they refuse to play him even when Heinicke isn't playing well so that would be a really odd decision. 


Our offensive line needs replacement across the board.


Our wide receivers are fantastic. Dyami Brown has found his stride as WR4 and the top three go without saying. That Dotson catch last night was surreal. 


Our tight ends are beyond disappointing. 


Our running backs are solid.


Defensively we need another corner, though our corner play has been at worst average since we got rid of Jackson. Our safeties are solid. We have one good linebacker (Davis), one FA (Holcomb who I view as a backup). We need at least one starting piece there.


Our DTs are among the top duos in the league. But our defensive ends should be on milk cartons. One of the two could and should be traded this offseason. I'd opt for Sweat because Young has an extra year on his deal and we invested more in him. 


Can't expect high end talent at every position but TE, OT, OG, C, ILB is way below par. Edge is overpriced vs. production. 


But the biggest issue, and one we don't seem to have any real plan to remedy is the quarterback spot. I'd start Howell. Yes, even against SF. But we know that isn't going to happen. 


Of course the McLaurin penalty needs to be mentioned. By rule, it was a penalty. However, given that he checked with the official and the way the rule is interpreted I don't believe it should have been called. McLaurin was even with the OT. The Head Ref said that you have to break the belt line of the center to be considered as being on the LoS. That is accurate. However, Terry was in line with the OT, who was considered to be on the LoS. When there is a tight end they are next to the OT and considered on the LoS. So the rule is bent and negotiated in that way all the time. In this situation, on a rule that is never called by the book, I don't know why they'd call it by the book.


And don't get me started on the pass interference call on the last play.


Having said all that, we aren't in those positions if Heinicke's horse shoe didn't prevent the Giant DB from catching the pick on the play before the McLaurin play. Yes, there was a bad snap. But Heinicke didn't even bother to look. Caught and threw that thing without reading a single variable. 


On the drive after the Heinicke fumble (not the touchdown fumble, the other one) the defense came out and got run over by the Giants. It was evident on that drive that the defense had realized that with Heinicke at QB their chances of winning were diminishing and they came out flat. The moxie magic is wearing off.


I'm sure I left some stuff off. Feel free to discuss. I'll add thoughts I have as we go. 



Studs and Duds:

*** - Kam Curl - He doesn't miss tackles and he hasn't been given the credit he deserves on a week to week basis.

*** - Jahan Dotson

*** - Brian Robinson

*** - Tress Way

** - Terry McLaurin

*  - Darrick Forrest

* - Danny Johnson

:( :( :( - Scott Turner

:( :( :( - Taylor Heinicke

:( :( :( - The entire OL (whatever combo it was this week)



Season to date:

* x 19 - Daron Payne

* x 18 - Terry McLaurin

* x 15 - Jon Allen

* x 11 - Jahan Dotson

* x 11 - Brian Robinson

* x 9 - Curtis Samuel

* x 8 - Darrick Forrest

* x 7 - Montez Sweat

* x 7 - Antonio Gibson

* x 7 - Jamin Davis

* x 6 - Benjamin St-Juste

* x 5 - Kam Curl

* x 5 - Kendall Fuller

* x 3 - Tress Way

* x 3- Dyami Brown

* x 3 - Back Judge in Vikings Game

* x 3 - Jack Del Rio

* x 2 - Joey Slye

* x 1 - Danny Johnson

* x 1 - Scott Turner

* x 1 - Rachad Wildgoose

* x 1 - James Smith-Williams

* x 1 - Jonathan Williams

* x 1 - John Bates

:( x 1 - Wes Schweitzer

:( x 1 - Jon Bostic

:( x 3 - Taylor Heinicke

:( x 3 - Cam Sims

:( x 3 - Entire OL (whatever iteration in Giants Game II)

:( x 4 - Scott Turner

:( x 4 - John Ridgeway

:( x 4 -Rivera's Clock Management

:( x 5 - Charles Leno

:( x 5 - Trai Turner

:( x 6 - Nick Martin

:( x 6 - WJ3

:( x 7 - Sam Cosmi

:( x 8 - Andrew Norwell

Edited by KDawg
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This team is a coin flip franchise. Eventually the coin was going to land the other way. It did last night. It can only go heads so many times in a row. They play a style that requires zero margin for error and even against evenly matched teams they still needs things to actively go their way while also not having anything go against them. 


This offense is outright abysmal. BRob is fun to watch drag guys along with him but I hate how I feel there is zero threat he breaks one to the house. For the love of god stop running curtis. It doesnt work. The passing game is one of the most abysmal things I have ever watched as a fan of this team. I think the weapons are pretty good but clearly the size hurts them in the RZ. They desperately need a big body in the middle of the field. 


The defense I dont think is close to elite. IMO they havent been challenged enough to say that. Djones who is a bottom 10 starter in the league continues to beat us far more than he should and the run defense late was woeful.


This just isnt a good team and the future looks to be a complete purgatory with zero QB fixes on the horizon in a passing game with a HC that seems to think its still 1993 with punting from his the 34 yard line and just overall football philosophies and roster construction.


This looks to be about the ceiling unless something drastic changes at QB and they get beyond lucky with Howell or what ever 2nd round QB they draft. 

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Forget the playoffs, this team has no business even talking about playoffs anymore. You're just wasting everyone's time, even if we were to make it, we would just embarrass ourselves. Two things NEED to happen before the end of the season:


1. Chase Young needs to play, I don't give a **** about his mental state. The season is on the line and you decide not to play? You've wasted a year of our time, make him play and then trade him for value. Same for Logan Thomas, he is a shell of his former self, trade him while he has value. Anyways, Young is an expensive cheerleader. He reminds me of that potion that you carry with you in an RPG that you're saving for "that moment", but you never use it because you want to make sure its "there". He should be frothing at the mouth to help his team...either that or put him on IR and quit mentioning his ****ing name everyweek.


2. Howell needs to play, maybe not against the 49ers on such short notice, but he needs to play the last two games. He can't be THAT bad, can he? Oh yeah, we have no ****ing idea because Ron won't play him. Will he play him next year? Don't ****ing know. Put the goddamned kid in!

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I couldn't even bring myself to participate in the gameday thread.   At 3-7.....it was another case of looking at the stats to see one team dominating, yet the scoreboard showed the opposite.


Two weeks, including a bye week to prepare for this opponent, and THAT is what they brought?  


I don't even know what to say that would be constructive at this point.


I'll just say this, nothing about last night changes my opinion on where the team is headed big picture as long as they keep drafting and building, however what last night does show is that they are still a couple of offseasons away and the problems they do have aren't ones that are very fixable within this season.


If I want to bring myself more pain & disappointment I can look at the playoff math and say, hey a win over the Browns and maybe we catch a Dallas team resting Week 18 and we end up  9-7-1 and sneak into the 7th seed, however I am not expecting that to happen.


I'll have more to say, with more specifics later.....but for now.....ugh.



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4 minutes ago, veteranskinsfan said:

Hey Ron- How about showing some emotion at the end of the game when we got two flags?  How about throwing down your headset while talking to the

officials?  Next game do something to show your players you are fighting for them.

My biggest pet peeve of fan coaching analysis is the coach’s demeanor on the sidelines and what they say in the post game presser.


The players DGAF whether Ron slams his headset.  That’s just ****ing for the sake of ****ing.


Of all the complaints related to coaching, whether or not the players buy what he’s selling is not in question.



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This team isn't gong anywhere with Scott Turner running the offense. It doesn't matter that you have a couple brilliant play calls if the rest are littered with absolute brain dead, stupid ones that kill drives. The Samuels 3rd and 3 run up the gut and the Samuels end around from the 10 on first down should have him fired.  If he wanted to keep the Giants off balance then he should have run play action on 1st down, not run a pay that had failed miserably several times that evening.


Heinicke has lousy pocket presence.  He doesn't know when to go right, when to go left, or when to step up.  Rarely runs when the opening is there.  On that 4th down play he had plenty of space to run toward the line of scrimmage with his head up and likely could have forced a Giant off a receiver.  He puts no pressure on a defense whatsoever.  His accuracy is hit or miss, several passes that could have resulted in drive extending plays were off.  Then there's the well below average arm strength.  And the team too often plays to his weakness.  A play action on first and 10 from the 11 would have been the smart call, but Turner's desire to be a young genius got the better of him again.  

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Outside of the RBs and WRs, the entire offense needs an overhaul. That's seven new starters. Maybe six if you think Cosmi is a keeper(I'd play him at G, don't think he can cut it as a T). Heinike has some magic moments but puts a hard ceiling on what the offense can accomplish, but the OL also doesn't give him much time. The TEs are a complete nothing spot. Thomas is washed up and the others are either too young/raw or in Bates case just a blocker with no receiving threat.


Scott Turner doesn't help matters either. He is simply a bad playcaller. He has no in game "feel." His play design and scheming isn't bad but he doesn't know how to call plays within the context of a game. Why do we keep running Curtis Samuel on inside draws when it was NOT working ever? EVERY time we ran it it either got blown up or gained like 1 yard. When its 3rd and long and the OL can't hold up, just run a draw or a safe underneath pass that defenses will give you and kick FGs. Instead two weeks ago and last night we take sacks on those plays because Turner calls a slow developing pass play, costing us a chance at points. The red zone playcalling also sucks. Why can't we isolate McLaurin? Try to get Cole Turner going with his size and athleticism? Get Gibson in and matched up on a LB? All our RZ pass plays are just the receivers running straight into the end zone then turning around. There is no creativity in their routes.


The defense is good, but not elite. They don't really take over games. They keep us in games, like they did last night, but you can't say they weren't at fault either. They gave up a 95 yard TD drive when the game was 7-3 including a 4th and 9 conversion. They couldn't stop Barkley at all on the 2nd to last drive when it was obvious they'd be running it. They consistently allowed Jones to break off runs including a decent one to allow a long FG attempt. And they reverted to early season defense where they gave huge cushions in the back end so the pass rush had no chance because we can just get quick passed to death.


Ultimately sure they held them to 13 points, but they didn't make a single game defining big play. No sacks. No takeaways. Nothing. And that has been the case for most of this season. Their only really dominant game was against the Texans who are the worst team in the league. They need another LB to pair with Davis. Bostic is complete garbage, has been for three seasons now, yet still manages to stick around. CB depth is also a big time concern as well. Losing St. Juste has killed our ability to play tight press man. Safeties are solid but none are really ballhawks. Need another outside CB though for sure and then some more guys in the back end for depth. In today's NFL you need like four quality Corners, we have two.


Like Zim said, this team plays with no margin of error. We can't even have a 1st down incompletion or its a guaranteed punt. I think every first half offensive drive had at least two plays where we lost yards or had a penalty. We basically have to be perfect just to barely eek out drives. Its not really fun to watch at all outside of the few plays a game where we actually get McLaurin and Dotson going downfield. I feel bad for them, they'd be tearing it up if we had a good QB/passing attack.

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SMH... SMH more...

2 weeks;  2 WEEKS to prepare for this game, and they come out laying an egg, looking like pre-season, and when I saw the shot of DelTaco on the sideline with his infamous "duh" look on his face, that told me all I need to know.

KDawg, spot on analysis. 

What I don't understand is WHY does Turner keep running that dumb jet sweep and running on 1st downs when it was clear it wasn't working like he hoped, yet he kept doing it.

They come out the 2nd half looking like they got their **** together; drove down the field, passing on 1st downs, and scored fairly quickly; then back to the same ol' run run pass punt.


TH looked like he was petrified out there; I dunno if Turner told him to stay in the pocket regardless or not, but there were plenty of chances for him to just bolt off and pick up chunks of yds, but he didn't. The o-line looked like swiss cheese, and folded the same way. Giant d-linemen spent alot of time in the offense's backfield, thus making things more difficult.


It doesn't matter WHO they put behind center, with this o-line nobody will have success; they just suck. 

I'd be all for an entire coaching /staff change whenever the new owner[s]  take reign, there are enough good players on this team on both sides of the ball to be far more competitive than the product we saw last night, and thats on coaching 100%. Turner knows TH's strengths and weaknesses yet he still believes that porous o-line can protect him. I'll be so glad when the entire staff is gone, and hopefully the new owners will stop hiring used up has-beens and nepotism practices when the new staff comes in. 

RR, bye, thanks.

Turner, get lost in the woods somewhere and never find your way out.

DelTaco, whats more to be said; the success the defense has had is the result of skilled players, not by anything he's done. Even the announcers mentioned the "soft shell" secondary, but its clear to everyone's eyes they look to be in almost prevent mode. 

SF will roll this team.

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I've trashed coaches before for appearing to not care, but that's mostly when their players are falling asleep on the field and look like they need a wakeup call. I'm not going to trash Rivera for not going wild over penalties. Yelling won't fix it. The refs screwed the team, what's Rivera making loud noises going to do? Make the refs cry?


We've already gotten lucky with the refs in our own time. We got a 12th man on the field when we were playing the Vikings. Like all our other bits of luck, it ran out. Our games depended on the refs. A team should NEVER depend on refs.

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8 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

I've trashed coaches before for appearing to not care, but that's mostly when their players are falling asleep on the field and look like they need a wakeup call. I'm not going to trash Rivera for not going wild over penalties. Yelling won't fix it. The refs screwed the team, what's Rivera making loud noises going to do? Make the refs cry?


We've already gotten lucky with the refs in our own time. We got a 12th man on the field when we were playing the Vikings. Like all our other bits of luck, it ran out. Our games depended on the refs. A team should NEVER depend on refs.


I believe there is a difference between a missed call like the one you mentioned and the last two where they went out of their way to DECIDE whether or not to call it. That sideline judge knew what he was about to do, his hand went immediately to grab the flag. The back judge decided not to call DPI, even though they saw that there was.

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Coaching was not good. The call to punt instead of attempting the FG was questionable. The offensive playcalling was bad. Our run game was dominant, yet we didn't rely on it in key situations throughout the game. Scott Turner is an assistant offensive coach, maybe, but he needs a play caller. The defensive scheme went a bit too conservative. I could see that St. Juste's absence took away a lot our bite. Running low on DBs, we had to use Bostic a lot more than we normally would so I understand JDR for leaning conservative. Still, he could have "taken more shots" to let our front attack. His unit wasn't the problem, though, in my opinion.


RBs were exceptional. Gibson and Robinson were both averaging well over 5 per carry midway through the game. They weren't utilized enough and so their efforts were wasted.


WRs were phenomenal when playing WR. Curtis Samuel run plays are something you mix in 1 MAYBE 2 times a game. You hand him the ball to catch the defense off guard. When the defense shows early they are keyed on him, you don't make that a primary focus the rest of the game...... but when playing WR, our guys showed up. Jahan doesn't drop passes. I am always confident with the ball going his way. McClaurin is a gem. Samuel is great when used as a WR!


TEs were mediocre. Blocking from Thomas was bad. They were below average threats in the passing game.


OL was good in run game and absolutely trash in the pass game. They made some nice holes for the RBs when we ran the ball; our strength. They also made some nice holes for the DEs, LBs and Safeties when we passed the ball. I'm LT round 1 camp. G and/or C mid round as well. OL can't keep holding us back.


Speaking of holding us back, QB was bad. My guy had one great drive, but otherwise, the push up the middle alone killed our passing game. I won't pick apart the rest as we have no shortage of QB debate here. Heinicke has had a great run and will forever be a legend here. We all love his story. It might be time to turn the page.


The DL was on a leash. We were in the most conservative, disciplined rush assignments I've seen us run all year. This was obviously to contain Jones, who burned us last game, but we took a LOT of bite out of our defense with that scheme. Still we controlled the run game for the majority of the game and Jones didn't get many opportunities to run. They did what they were asked to do.


LBs were trash other than Jamin. Davis made a few splash plays that were very quickly over shadowed by Bostic playing twister on the hash marks. We need another LB badly, but Davis is turning into exactly what I said he could be. The sideline to sideline 2nd level controller who's a threat as a pass rushers. We still need a traditional field general MLB.


DBs were average. They were undermanned, but our starters and usual rotational guys gave up too many completions. Here, again, the scheme is relevant. We were playing conservative coverage with St. Juste out.


Refs were ridiculous to the point someone needs to check if the NFL has registered as Sports Entertainment.



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4 minutes ago, Simmsy said:


I believe there is a difference between a missed call like the one you mentioned and the last two where they went out of their way to DECIDE whether or not to call it. That sideline judge knew what he was about to do, his hand went immediately to grab the flag. The back judge decided not to call DPI, even though they saw that there was.

Even if there is a difference, does Ron's face turning red change that call?

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7 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

Even if there is a difference, does Ron's face turning red change that call?


Nope, I don't care how he acts on the sideline, that doesn't mean anything to me. I was responding more to you than that statement. I wouldn't mind more yelling from him though, don't think it does any good though.

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I agree verbatim.  I love Heinicke, and he's the reason we lost.  If the defense screws up but he plays well, then we win.  If he does well and Turner ****s up, then we win. Same with OL and zebras.

If Heinicke plays well and a couple other sections go to crap, then we win.  But if Heine is playing like crap? We're toast.

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Don't get me going on that punt.

I'd love to sit down with the coach and ask him, next time you're contemplating a decision like that ask yourself this question, if it works exactly how I hoped it would will it still be open to criticism?

If the answer is yes, don't do it!

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Heinicke's two turnovers were obviously game changers and when he's not missing throws, he too often goes to the wrong place with the ball. I think it was the 2nd quarter when we were down 7-3 and had 1st down at the NY 44. Heinicke took a shot at a deep throw to Brown- who was double covered- when he had Gibson uncovered on the left side with nothing but green in front of him. If he throws it to Gibson, it's at least a 20 yd. gain and who knows how the game might have played out. We ended up punting on that drive and like so often came away with 0 points on what looked like a promising drive. 


The defense gave up 13 points and that should be good enough to win, but that 18 play, 97 yard drive that included a 4th & 9 conversion which led to a TD just before half to give the Giants a 14-3 lead was a back breaker. I was surprised the Giants went for that and our D has to make them pay there by getting off the field. Giving our O great field position with a stop there would've gave us a great shot at points, but more importantly it would have been 7 less points for the Giants, which turned out to be huge. Also, after the Heinicke fumble on their 14 with about 6 minutes left in the 4th quarter, to watch them smash it right up the gut on three straight plays with Barkley was infuriating. Barkley had 87 yards rushing for the game and on those 3 carries he had 45 of those yards, eating up clock and leading to a FG to put the Giants up by 8 with 1:43 to go.


The play calling is very frustrating. After Dotson's 61 yard catch to give us 1st down at the NY 30, Robinson rips off a 19 yard run to the 11 on the very next play. With 1st down on the 11, Robinson goes out of the game and on 2nd down we run Samuel for a gain of 1. Horrible! Turner tries to get too damn cute sometimes- often on the next play following a big play- and I thought after Robinson's big run down to the 11, he should've been getting the ball again, but nope, he was on the sidelines. Of course, on 3rd down Heinicke fumbles and once again 0 points. Robinson had 12 carries for 89 yards and an average of 7.9 yards per carry. How the hell he didn't get 20-25 carries in this game is mind boggling to me. He was on fire last night and Turner didn't get him the ball nearly enough.


And lastly, the officiating was awful on us and costly for sure. But we left a lot of meat on the bone out there by leaving points on the field that were there for the taking with questionable QB play, poor execution and some bad play calling.







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2 hours ago, KDawg said:

Our tight ends are beyond disappointing. 

That's something I read quite often and do agree.


Last year they where quite the force of our offense. Now, all of a sudden, as we do have some RB and WR play, the TE are suddenly out of the equation.

I don't really get why. That's kinda the same QB, same OC, same TE coach if I'm right. So that's really bothersome.


Any clue?

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