2023 Comprehensive Draft Thread

[Skinsinparadise]

4 hours ago, Wyvern said:

I asked about LB'ers, because in 2022, Washington did nothing to build quality depth at "Linebacker" (inside, "middle", or outside) except to bring in a 'diminished' Bostic, when there was no depth.  I doubt Bostic or Mayo are the answer in 2023, to a question Washington didn't answer in 2022.

 

Right now, Washington has one 'NFL-worthy'  starting LB on the roster.  They may sign Holcomb, but after that there's no depth.

 

If Rivera ignores the need for quality depth at LB (almost as bad as the need for quality players for the O-line) be prepared for another mediocre season, as the Washington " D" get dinked-&-dunked to death ...especially at the end of the long season where at least one of the two starting LB'ers might be questionable or out.

 

 

I got little dount they take a LB somewhere, I'd be very surprised if its in the first round, mildly surprised if its in the 2nd.   Once they hit the 3rd round, I am guessing its on.

 

This draft feels a lot like the 2018 draft where we kept heating predraft they are target DT, RB over and over again for the first tow rounds.  And in theory you can marry BPA to those rounds.  Right now so far, we keep hearing CB, OT.   But its early, will see.

 

Of the LBs I watched so far Drew Sanders is my favorite but not at #16. 

\

 

[Chump Bailey]

7 hours ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

Hypothetical. We trade back from #16, Sanders is one of the BPA at our pick...do we double dip on LB as the top pick twice in three years? Seems a bit much.

 

I doubt it too though I think Drew Sanders would be a good fit for us. This does not look like a very good LB class to me though. 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Chump Bailey

[Chump Bailey]

21 hours ago, Going Commando said:

I really liked Pace's film and playing style too, but my concern with him is that he looks really small and his frame already looks totally maxed out bulk-wise.  I've been spooked off of small rushing-specialist linebackers with bad bodies ever since I got bamboozled by Scooby Wright.  His balance looks really good and he's just got that knack for keeping his feet until he can hit the ball carrier in the backfield, and he plays the game with so much guts and heart.  But so did Scooby.  I'm not sure that what Pace does will translate to the NFL.  Hopefully he's faster than Scooby was. He'll need to be in order to get drafted before the seventh.

 

I'd be surprised if Pace is drafted. I don't think he's a bad player but just cannot see him playing at the level of NFL competition. I could be very wrong too I admit. I happen to like his brother a lot more and he likely will make my OLB list. Dorian Williams is another I'm struggling with. Good motor but that's about it. 

[KDawg]

11 minutes ago, Chump Bailey said:

 

I'd be surprised if Pace is drafted. I don't think he's a bad player but just cannot see him playing at the level of NFL competition. I could be very wrong too I admit. I happen to like his brother a lot more and he likely will make my OLB list. Dorian Williams is another I'm struggling with. Good motor but that's about it. 

I love Pace. Guy plays like an aggressive bad ass. People saying he’s small but forget at 6-0 235 he is bigger than Drew Sanders. Well, heavier. Sanders is a giant. 6-5 230. Now, Sanders has room to add to his frame but at that size getting too big is really not great for the knees and joints. 
 

London Fletcher was 5-10 240. 
 

Sometimes I think NFL teams care too much about that other stuff versus on field ability.

[DWinzit]

10 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I love Pace. Guy plays like an aggressive bad ass. People saying he’s small but forget at 6-0 235 he is bigger than Drew Sanders. Well, heavier. Sanders is a giant. 6-5 230. Now, Sanders has room to add to his frame but at that size getting too big is really not great for the knees and joints. 
 

London Fletcher was 5-10 240. 
 

Sometimes I think NFL teams care too much about that other stuff versus on field ability.

He does play with tremendous instinct, techniques, smarts and has a great motor. If he were bigger they'd be talking about him going day 1

[KDawg]

3 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

He does play with tremendous instinct, techniques, smarts and has a great motor. If he were bigger they'd be talking about him going day 1

I get when it’s a huge size issue versus the standard. But I’m not sure how the narrative that Pace is too small even started. Since when is 6’ 235 small for a 4-2 ILB? Davis is 6-4 230.  Holcomb is 6-1 240.

 

People LOVED Nakobe Dean last year. He’s 6-0 225. 
 

Logan Wilson is 6-2 245.

 

I don’t get it.

 

 

[Going Commando]

3 hours ago, KDawg said:

Kancey is an edge. I think day 1/day 2

 

At 6' tall?  I think he's probably going to have to stay an IDL at that size unless he's got monster arm length.  But he also lacks bulk for an IDL at the next level.  He's very undersized for any role at the next level, and I think it'll cause him to drop even though he's got dominant tape.

[Going Commando]

Just now, KDawg said:

I get when it’s a huge size issue versus the standard. But I’m not sure how the narrative that Pace is too small even started. Since when is 6’ 235 small for a 4-2 ILB? Davis is 6-4 230.  Holcomb is 6-1 240.

 

People LOVED Nakobe Dean last year. He’s 6-0 225. 
 

Logan Wilson is 6-2 245.

 

I don’t get it.

 

Pace is probably 5'11 though, and he's got a sloppy looking body at 230, and I saw an estimate that he runs a 4.8.  That's a bad combo for his draft stock.  I also think Pace is different from more traditional ILB prospects like Dean because of how much Cincy used him as a pressure player, and what a big part of his productivity that was.  That part of his game isn't going to translate to the NFL as well because how short he is.  But can he live in coverage?  If he runs 4.8, he won't have a ton of range.

 

SIP brought up that Malcolm Rodriguez was also short, but the difference between them is Rodriguez was a traditional ILB playing in the stack and playing coverage on passing downs.  He also ran a 4.5.  And even still, he was drafted in the sixth round.  I think Pace's ceiling is likely the sixth round too, and for him to go even that high, he needs to run well.

[DWinzit]

8 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I get when it’s a huge size issue versus the standard. But I’m not sure how the narrative that Pace is too small even started. Since when is 6’ 235 small for a 4-2 ILB? Davis is 6-4 230.  Holcomb is 6-1 240.

 

People LOVED Nakobe Dean last year. He’s 6-0 225. 
 

Logan Wilson is 6-2 245.

 

I don’t get it.

 

 

When the size conversation comes up always I think of Zach Thomas who had all the desired intangibles Pace has

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Going Commando said:

 

Pace is probably 5'11 though, and he's got a sloppy looking body at 230, and I saw an estimate that he runs a 4.8.  That's a bad combo for his draft stock.  I also think Pace is different from more traditional ILB prospects like Dean because of how much Cincy used him as a pressure player, and what a big part of his productivity that was.  That part of his game isn't going to translate to the NFL as well because how short he is.  But can he live in coverage?  If he runs 4.8, he won't have a ton of range.

 

SIP brought up that Malcolm Rodriguez was also short, but the difference between them is Rodriguez was a traditional ILB playing in the stack and playing coverage on passing downs.  He also ran a 4.5.  And even still, he was drafted in the sixth round.  I think Pace's ceiling is likely the sixth round too, and for him to go even that high, he needs to run well.

Sloppy body? Where is that from? 

[Chump Bailey]

Just for the record, I'm not against Pace for his size. It's a legit issue but in no way an automatic deal breaker for me. I just don't see him making much of an impact outside of blitzing prowess. 

[KDawg]

14 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

At 6' tall?  I think he's probably going to have to stay an IDL at that size unless he's got monster arm length.  But he also lacks bulk for an IDL at the next level.  He's very undersized for any role at the next level, and I think it'll cause him to drop even though he's got dominant tape.

Elvis Dumervil was 6’ 250.

 

James Harrison was 6’.

 

Freeney was 6-1.

 

Brandon Graham 6-2.

 

Yannick is 6-2.

 

Kwity Paye is 6-2.

 

Yes, Kancey is slightly undersized. Yes, it might make a difference. Yes. Ideally Edges are at least 6-3. But it’s not a rule. There are OLBs smaller than Kancey who are some of the best edge rushers in the league. I’ll never argue that standards don’t matter because they do. But they are one tool.

 

Kancey will probably used to move around the front, but his tape shouldn’t be ignored. 
 

The combine will also help sort some of this out. If Kancey is close to 5-11 that isn’t good for him. If he’s closer to 6-1 his stock looks better. Right now we only have film.

 

 

 

 

[Going Commando]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Sloppy body? Where is that from? 

Just from looking at him.  He's got little defined muscle and the Cincy coaches said he was 260 when he got there and they had to get him to drop 30 pounds before the season.  That means his weight can get out of hand in the offseason, and his body fat % is going to be high for an ILB.

 

I like his intangibles and his film too, but I think he has to run well to be more than a seventh round flier.  He needs to run in the 4.6s to demonstrate that he'll have the speed to play coverage at the next level, or else he's becoming too much of a long shot projection as to role and size.

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Going Commando said:

Just from looking at him.  He's got little defined muscle and the Cincy coaches said he was 260 when he got there and they had to get him to drop 30 pounds before the season.  That means his weight can get out of hand in the offseason, and his body fat % is going to be high for an ILB.

 

I like his intangibles and his film too, but I think he has to run well to be more than a seventh round flier.  He needs to run in the 4.6s to demonstrate that he'll have the speed to play coverage at the next level, or else he's becoming too much of a long shot projection as to role and size.

that isn’t sloppy.

[DWinzit]

Just now, KDawg said:

that isn’t sloppy.

Wish I looked that sloppy haha

He would be the steal of the draft as a 7th rounder

[Going Commando]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Elvis Dumervil was 6’ 250.

 

James Harrison was 6’.

 

Freeney was 6-1.

 

Brandon Graham 6-2.

 

Yannick is 6-2.

 

Kwity Paye is 6-2.

 

Yes, Kancey is slightly undersized. Yes, it might make a difference. Yes. Ideally Edges are at least 6-3. But it’s not a rule. There are OLBs smaller than Kancey who are some of the best edge rushers in the league. I’ll never argue that standards don’t matter because they do. But they are one tool.

 

Kancey will probably used to move around the front, but his tape shouldn’t be ignored. 
 

The combine will also help sort some of this out. If Kancey is close to 5-11 that isn’t good for him. If he’s closer to 6-1 his stock looks better. Right now we only have film.

 

I was thinking edge too at first, but I see two potential problems with that.  The first is that it's a total projection because he was an IDL at Pittsburgh, and that's the spot where he has a track record of dominance.  The second is the length issue, which will be much more pronounced playing wide than it is playing inside.  I definitely think he's a down lineman too rather than more of a short standup rush linebacker like Harrison or Mack.  There are so few short defensive ends in NFL history that Kancey would probably have more precedent for playing inside at his size.

 

I like his quickness advantage much more on IOLs too.  And on run downs, I would honestly rather see him handle a center-guard double/combo than have to tangle with a huge tackle with 34"+ arms.  He's shown that he has the power to play through those kinds of doubles and hold his ground.  I think he's a 3 tech at the NFL level.   I don't like how much of a projection it would be for him to switch to edge for a potential first or second round pick with size flags.  That feels like too much risk, and would put him more into the third or fourth round range for me.  My guess is he's going to try and bulk up to like 285-290 for the combine and get teams thinking IDL for him.

[Going Commando]

30 minutes ago, KDawg said:

that isn’t sloppy.

 

He looks fine in that picture, but he looks a lot softer in his cut ups and highlight videos.  And we know for a fact that he put on a lot of bad weight in the 2021 offseason.  Maybe you are right that his body is fine, but I think it's a concern.  I don't know if it will limit him at the NFL level, but I definitely think it will limit his draft stock.

[KDawg]

15 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

I was thinking edge too at first, but I see two potential problems with that.  The first is that it's a total projection because he was an IDL at Pittsburgh, and that's the spot where he has a track record of dominance.  The second is the length issue, which will be much more pronounced playing wide than it is playing inside.  I definitely think he's a down lineman too rather than more of a short standup rush linebacker like Harrison or Mack.  There are so few short defensive ends in NFL history that Kancey would probably have more precedent for playing inside at his size.

 

I like his quickness advantage much more on IOLs too.  And on run downs, I would honestly rather see him handle a center-guard double/combo than have to tangle with a huge tackle with 34"+ arms.  He's shown that he has the power to play through those kinds of doubles and hold his ground.  I think he's a 3 tech at the NFL level.   I don't like how much of a projection it would be for him to switch to edge for a potential first or second round pick with size flags.  That feels like too much risk, and would put him more into the third or fourth round range for me.  My guess is he's going to try and bulk up to like 285-290 for the combine and get teams thinking IDL for him.

Could all be true. He is positional versatile. He moves like an edge but plays mostly on the interior. His height would be more advantageous for him inside. But I really think he could do both. He is so fluid that I think he could be an impact player on the edge. But yes, I think he will be drafted to someone that values the versatility and his quickness on the interior with the idea that he can possibly be a good edge guy. Still think back end of the first/early second. His film is tremendous.

[Going Commando]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

Could all be true. He is positional versatile. He moves like an edge but plays mostly on the interior. His height would be more advantageous for him inside. But I really think he could do both. He is so fluid that I think he could be an impact player on the edge. But yes, I think he will be drafted to someone that values the versatility and his quickness on the interior with the idea that he can possibly be a good edge guy. Still think back end of the first/early second. His film is tremendous.

 

Yeah it's totally dominant.  He's going to draw a comparison to Aaron Donald, but I don't think he was THAT good.  I do think he's better than Twyman, who I also loved, and he's better than Grady Jarrett was in college, and that could be a nice baseline of expectations for him.  Jarrett was a low draft pick, but he ended up being an All Pro and guys like him and Donald blazed the trail for a Calijah Kancey to get drafted much higher than he would have been able to ten years ago.

 

Of all of the undersized defensive prospects with great film that we've discussed in this thread like Pace and Clark Phillips, Kancey is the one that I like the most.  If he were just a little bit bigger, we'd be talking potential top ten pick with him.  As is, I think first round is within his reach but second is much more likely, with third on the table.

 

I'm interested to see what he measures for the combine.  I think he'll try and bulk up like Twyman did, but the other route he could go is to cut weight and blaze through the drills and get teams to take the leap on him as an edge.  It's a really crowded edge draft in the first round though.

 

 

[mhd24]

1 hour ago, Going Commando said:

 

Yeah it's totally dominant.  He's going to draw a comparison to Aaron Donald, but I don't think he was THAT good.  I do think he's better than Twyman, who I also loved, and he's better than Grady Jarrett was in college, and that could be a nice baseline of expectations for him.  Jarrett was a low draft pick, but he ended up being an All Pro and guys like him and Donald blazed the trail for a Calijah Kancey to get drafted much higher than he would have been able to ten years ago.

 

Of all of the undersized defensive prospects with great film that we've discussed in this thread like Pace and Clark Phillips, Kancey is the one that I like the most.  If he were just a little bit bigger, we'd be talking potential top ten pick with him.  As is, I think first round is within his reach but second is much more likely, with third on the table.

 

I'm interested to see what he measures for the combine.  I think he'll try and bulk up like Twyman did, but the other route he could go is to cut weight and blaze through the drills and get teams to take the leap on him as an edge.  It's a really crowded edge draft in the first round though.

 

 

Kipper has him going too 10

[Wyvern]

I really appreciate all the work being shared in this thread. I'm sorry to keep harping on LB prospects, but I see it as an unfulfilled need that Del Rio tried to patch over in 2022, and the patch came off when Holcomb went down.

 

I grant that Washington has so many holes in their roster they need to fill or upgrade.  And it's even more important, especially as the promising players on the team get older, and many come off their rookie contracts.  As we know, the draft is a cap-wise way of handling the issue.  So very few positions should be overlooked, especially should Washington be lucky enough to get.some BPA 'gem' that drops into their lap.

 

However, gathering a collection of BPA's doesn't always move Washington to becoming a playoff contender.  Sometimes, it's about making draft picks needed to address the more immediate needs of a team as well.

 

So if Washington decides to really commit to the route of being a run-dominant team identity, its going to need to shore up its defense to control time of possession and keeping the score close.  IMHO, LB, SS, and CB need to be shored up, as well as the O-line and depth at QB. Run offenses need time, and Washington's D routinely had problems getting off the field.

 

I'm not sure if an LB is worthy of a first rounder -- but I feel it really needs to be addressed no later than late third round or fourth round, to get a best possible linebacker that fits a long-time unaddressed need.  BTW, if the next HC decides they want a 3-4 defense, Del Rio's LB "patch" is at least 1-2 LB'ers short.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mhd24]

Listens to Mckshay and Kiper’s latest podcast and they said multiple teams have said this draft isn’t deep.  Kipper said he struggled getting to 150 top players.

[KDawg]

27 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

Listens to Mckshay and Kiper’s latest podcast and they said multiple teams have said this draft isn’t deep.  Kipper said he struggled getting to 150 top players.

It’s deep as hell in some positions. Shallow as a kids pool in others. It feels like everyone will get a corner with talent this year.

[philibusters]

3 hours ago, mhd24 said:

Listens to Mckshay and Kiper’s latest podcast and they said multiple teams have said this draft isn’t deep.  Kipper said he struggled getting to 150 top players.

 

PFF podcast is saying the same thing.  Its not a deep draft seems to be the consensus. 

[Chump Bailey]

A player I overlooked is Clemson OL Warren McClendon. He held up well against Georgia. He could be a nice value pick.