2023 Comprehensive Draft Thread

[Going Commando]

I really liked Pace's film and playing style too, but my concern with him is that he looks really small and his frame already looks totally maxed out bulk-wise.  I've been spooked off of small rushing-specialist linebackers with bad bodies ever since I got bamboozled by Scooby Wright.  His balance looks really good and he's just got that knack for keeping his feet until he can hit the ball carrier in the backfield, and he plays the game with so much guts and heart.  But so did Scooby.  I'm not sure that what Pace does will translate to the NFL.  Hopefully he's faster than Scooby was. He'll need to be in order to get drafted before the seventh.

[KDawg]

Just now, Going Commando said:

I really liked Pace's film and playing style too, but my concern with him is that he looks really small and his frame already looks totally maxed out bulk-wise.  I've been spooked off of small rushing-specialist linebackers with bad bodies ever since I got bamboozled by Scooby Wright.  His balance looks really good and he's just got that knack for keeping his feet until he can hit the ball carrier in the backfield, and he plays the game with so much guts and heart.  But so did Scooby.  I'm not sure that what Pace does will translate to the NFL.  Hopefully he's faster than Scooby was. He'll need to be in order to get drafted before the seventh.

I think he’s got some room to add some more good weight. But he needs 5-10 pounds. Agree. 

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

I just edited the post from this AM to include Charlie Jones. VERY impressed with him. Check that out and then watch him at your earliest convenience. 

 

Watched him some.  I like him.   Speaking of Porter, I watched the Penn State game he did pretty well against Joey Porter.   

 

Outside receiver.   Great ball skills, hands catcher, sick 2.7% drop rate which is impressive considering how many targets he got.   Can return kicks-punts and does it well.

 

24 years old already.  I believe will be 25 during his rookie season.  Looks to me like he has average speed.   Seperates well enough.  I like him mostly on the 2nd level of the field. Strong at the catchpoint -- good contested catch guy.  I think solid, high floor -- possession receiver in the NFL.  Sort of a rich man's Dex Milne -- college version of Dax Milne and definitely better returner than Dax.

 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Going Commando]

Getting a strong Grady Jarrett vibe from Calijah Kancey, but he looks really small too.  Even smaller than Jarret.  Supposedly he played at only 280 pounds.  Very compact build, and in modern IDL play: smaller linemen who can run and win with quickness/motor, have great play range and the ability to play a ton of snaps > the Vince Wilforks of the aughts.

 

But still, he is really small for the position.  Jonathan Allen looks small against some match ups and he's three inches taller and 20 pounds heavier.

 

What are you guys thinking for his draft stock?  I'm thinking early day three.

[Skinsinparadise]

I like the Ivan Pace love here, one of my favs among the ones I've watched.  Found this article about him.  

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

Tre Tucker, another small dude who is fast, plays slot and can return kicks.  He made the freaks list.    I like Nathaniel Dell better.  Dellis more dangerous with the ball in his hands and is a better overall receiver from what I saw.  Tucker is more straight line.  Watched one game.   7th roundish?  My interest is in the return skills.   Maybe an occasional weapon they can deploy in backfield motion, gadget plays, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

This is a good way of putting Joey Porter. I think he’s safer than Witherspoon and will still be a good pro at minimum. I think Witherspoon has higher upside but a little more “dangerous” than Porter. But it’s not really out of whack to me.

 

But I get why some rank Porter higher. Some draft on safe pick/rank that way. I tend to lean more towards risk/reward. Though there are times I highly value “safe”

 

I wish I coud marry Gonzalez's ball skills with Porter and make them one CB.  Just one pick for Porter in 3 seasons.  I watched Charlie Jones' game against Penn State and Porter had an easy pick right in his hands and bobbled and droped it.    But as a physical press corner, I give Porter the edge.

 

Witherspoon to me is corner #1.  Gonzalez just a hair over Porter at #2. 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

Another short slot WR who is quick and fast.  Josh Downs.  Sam Howell's old teammate.   Great hands, 3% drop rate.   Maybe drops to the 3rd-4th because of this size albiet i see him in the 2nd in some mocks.  He was hard to miss when watching Howell last year, had an even bigger year playing with Howell versus Maye.

 

Dynamic with the ball in his hands, cuts without breaking much stride. Stop and go in open field.   Stretches the field.  Strong in spite of his size at the catch point.   Don't love him as a blocker, he has moments but not as engaged as I'd like.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

I think he’s got some room to add some more good weight. But he needs 5-10 pounds. Agree. 

 

According to that article, he came to Cincy at 260 and then dropped 30 pounds.  He's already gone through a drastic body transformation in a pretty short period of time, so I can see where some of his sloppiness is coming from.  He can continue to reshape his body over time, but Brugler has him listed at 5'11 and I think that might be accurate because of how small he looks in his cut ups.  And I've also seen speculation that he runs the 40 in the 4.8 range.  If both of those numbers are accurate, then he's going in the seventh round (or UDFA).  He would be a Scooby Wright clone under those circumstances, and have a marginal chance at an NFL career, unfortunately.

 

I think players like Pace are a bit of a trap for film-watching die hard fans like us draft thread regulars.  They are easy to fall in love with because they are awesome at the game itself, and it's like how can you not love watching them if you love football?  I completely understand the love, every year I have a "Gardner Minshew" who I fall in love with and convince myself they'll be the ones to beat the streak.  But when a player just doesn't have the body to play in the NFL, there is not a whole lot they can do about that.

[Skinsinparadise]

17 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

According to that article, he came to Cincy at 260 and then dropped 30 pounds.  He's already gone through a drastic body transformation in a pretty short period of time, so I can see where some of his sloppiness is coming from.  He can continue to reshape his body over time, but Brugler has him listed at 5'11 and I think that might be accurate because of how small he looks in his cut ups.  And I've also seen speculation that he runs the 40 in the 4.8 range.  If both of those numbers are accurate, then he's going in the seventh round (or UDFA).  He would be a Scooby Wright clone under those circumstances, and have a marginal chance at an NFL career, unfortunately.

 

I think players like Pace are a bit of a trap for film-watching die hard fans like us draft thread regulars.  They are easy to fall in love with because they are awesome at the game itself, and it's like how can you not love watching them if you love football?  I completely understand the love, every year I have a "Gardner Minshew" who I fall in love with and convince myself they'll be the ones to beat the streak.  But when a player just doesn't have the body to play in the NFL, there is not a whole lot they can do about that.

 

Agree combine is big for Pace.   i am reluctant to land firmly on any list-ranking until the combine which per your point can be key as far as seperating players.  And historically it can make some players undraftable.

 

For me with LBs, I trust more than anything play recognition skills and just being around the ball-action over other qualities.  Malcolm Rodriguez, is a good example of that.  He got just about zlich love from draftniks.  5 '11, 232 pounds.  He looked though thicker than Pace.  And he did have a good combine.  Yet still was taken later.   I watched him later in the process and liked him and was surprised about the lack of hype.  I recall you mentioning him just before draft day and I concurred with your thoughts.

 

Pace is a different dude from Rodriguez but the reason why I mentioned Rodriguez when I wrote up what I thought about Pace is they both struck me as playmakers, around the ball a lot, play after play.    126 tackles.  10 sacks.  2 forced fumbles.  And his play matches those stats.

Edited January 28, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[skinzplay]

Love the insights you guys share here. Question for you draft and college football officiandos: Do you think we can shore up the O line completely through this draft, or will need to also drop some coin on a FA or two?

[Skinsinparadise]

15 minutes ago, skinzplay said:

Love the insights you guys share here. Question for you draft and college football officiandos: Do you think we can shore up the O line completely through this draft, or will need to also drop some coin on a FA or two?

 

Not sure they will spend in FA, Dan was cheap last year in FA when he was still owning the team, can only imagine if the sale is on Dan would change on this.  So I am guessing they are stuck with just the draft.

 

I know some disagree.  But I am with Logan Paulsen as to the O line.  He thinks getting 2 guys, a tackle and an interior lineman is a code red level need but he doesn't feel its code red to go deeper than that.  Me too.

 

Get me a tackle and or a guard-center in the early rounds and I think that will go a long way to make the O line better.  I am good with getting another O lineman deeper in the draft, too.  But my take is 2 of the first 4 round picks should be O line.   And those 2 players need to be impact players -- starters.

 

And while I don't love the depth for top end talent on the O line in round 1.  I think round 2-3 has potentially really good depth for B level players

 

I am guessing Leno at LT.  RG Cosmi.  It wouldn't surprise me if they ride with status quo at center but add a player for depth.  Paul has a shot at LG.  But I am guessing RT is someone new.  And they add a young guard or maybe a guard-center to compete for a job at center or LG.

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[KDawg]

31 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

According to that article, he came to Cincy at 260 and then dropped 30 pounds.  He's already gone through a drastic body transformation in a pretty short period of time, so I can see where some of his sloppiness is coming from.  He can continue to reshape his body over time, but Brugler has him listed at 5'11 and I think that might be accurate because of how small he looks in his cut ups.  And I've also seen speculation that he runs the 40 in the 4.8 range.  If both of those numbers are accurate, then he's going in the seventh round (or UDFA).  He would be a Scooby Wright clone under those circumstances, and have a marginal chance at an NFL career, unfortunately.

 

I think players like Pace are a bit of a trap for film-watching die hard fans like us draft thread regulars.  They are easy to fall in love with because they are awesome at the game itself, and it's like how can you not love watching them if you love football?  I completely understand the love, every year I have a "Gardner Minshew" who I fall in love with and convince myself they'll be the ones to beat the streak.  But when a player just doesn't have the body to play in the NFL, there is not a whole lot they can do about that.

I agree somewhat. But I think the NFL is often times too infatuated with testing numbers, too. There is a happy medium. Of course, guys that are under the “threshold” have a higher bust rate than guys who have them and are similar production wise. 

[Skinsinparadise]

"Master" is a bit much but this FO as to the draft isn't the joke that some of the fan/critics say it is. 

 

Kiper likes to say if you pull 3 players out of a draft its a good one, more misses than hits for teams in the draft.  His take is your best shot is to add picks and increase the odds.

 

We continue though to struggle to find elite players.  But pretty good at finding good to very good players.   Shanny while had too many misses in the draft was probably our best at finding elite level talent albiet not as much as we needed. 

 

My point is two fold.  If there is an elite player at 16 in theory go BPA, otherwise trade down if possible and accrue picks. 

 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

 

[skinny21]

Lots of potential variance in those 2 drafts.  2021 - St Juste and Cosmi have had their injury issues, and we have to see how Cosmi fares at G (I think it’s a great move for him).  With them healthy, that’s probably 4 solid or better starters (plus Cheeseman and a good blocking TE in Bates).

2022 - If Howell emerges, it’s a winning draft almost no matter what.  If he doesn’t, we still have 2 good starters (Dotson/Robinson) and pretty legit potential from several others.

[skinzplay]

Thanks for that info, SIP!

[KillBill26]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I wish I coud marry Gonzalez's ball skills with Porter and make them one CB.  Just one pick for Porter in 3 seasons.  I watched Charlie Jones' game against Penn State and Porter had an easy pick right in his hands and bobbled and droped it.    But as a physical press corner, I give Porter the edge.

 

Witherspoon to me is corner #1.  Gonzalez just a hair over Porter at #2. 

 

 

Gonzalez is a nice prospect too, but just for context, Porter was targeted half as much as Gonzalez in 2022, 30 to 64.  Teams stopped throwing Porter's way.

[Wyvern]

This is such a huge thread, it's difficult to search sometimes.  I was looking for evaluations on linebacker. Still looking.

 

That's because I'm wondering how Washington is going to try again to go through the 2023 season with just two NFL-worthy linebackers.  Let's be realistic,  Bostic  and Mayo aren't the answer and there's nothing behind Davis and Holcomb (if they can resign him.). And signing an FA linebacker may be a real challenge, cap-wise.

 

If this team spends what I think they'll spend to keep Allen-Payne+ top-tier DEs for a ferocious pass rush -- it would seem investing in depth at LB would be a smart idea for taking away the check downs forced by the pass rush, as well as those quick seam passes to the TE(s). 

 

I understand Washington's going to need to prepare to replace Fuller with another CB, but IMHO decent depth at LB is a more urgent need.

 

SIP, what's your thoughts about Simpson from Clemson?

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, KillBill26 said:

Gonzalez is a nice prospect too, but just for context, Porter was targeted half as much as Gonzalez in 2022, 30 to 64.  Teams stopped throwing Porter's way.

 

Porter with 116 targets and one pick in his 3 year career.  Gonzalez 4 picks in 64 targets this season.  Maybe I am over thinking it but lol it reminded me some of Carlos Rodgers watching him blow a pick that was right in his hands in one of the games I watched. 

 

I like Porter.  But he doesn't blow me away to the same extent as Sauce Gardner did.  He's physical, sticky in coverage and its a great sign that teams were fearful of targeting him this season.

 

I think its a serious debate assuming Witherspoon is gone and Gonzalez and Porter are on the board at the same time as to who to take.   I am guessing the decision will be made for us, and I'd bet Gonzalez is more likely gone and Porter is there.  But will see. 

 

PFF has Gonzalez ranked higher than Porter and so does Brugler.  Kiper has Porter one spot higher.   I think its an interesting debate.  I am leaning Gonzalez over Porter if Gonzalez's combine is as freaky as some expect. 

 

I like Porter a bit more as to hip to hip sticky coverage.  But Gonzalez with his longish arms, freak speed and playmaking ability intrigue me a hair more but its close IMO.   Gonzalez more of the late bloomer of the two.

 

Porter IMO higher floor.  Gonzalez IMO higher ceiling.  I'd love either.  For the CB spot, actually O line too (two spots we arguably need) everything being equal or close enough, I like to bet on upside, I go ceiling over floor.  But both players IMO are neck and neck, I get the arguments either way. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Wyvern said:

This is such a huge thread, it's difficult to search sometimes.  I was looking for evaluations on linebacker. Still looking.

 

That's because I'm wondering how Washington is going to try again to go through the 2023 season with just two NFL-worthy linebackers.  Let's be realistic,  Bostic  and Mayo aren't the answer and there's nothing behind Davis and Holcomb (if they can resign him.). And signing an FA linebacker may be a real challenge, cap-wise.

 

If this team spends what I think they'll spend to keep Allen-Payne+ top-tier DEs for a ferocious pass rush -- it would seem investing in depth at LB would be a smart idea for taking away the check downs forced by the pass rush, as well as those quick seam passes to the TE(s). 

 

I understand Washington's going to need to prepare to replace Fuller with another CB, but IMHO decent depth at LB is a more urgent need.

 

SIP, what's your thoughts about Simpson from Clemson?

 

I watched him earlier this past college season but need to catch up.

 

From what I recall, he's jacked up, both strong and fast.  Mostly lives up to his billing as being a swiss army knife.  Fluid in pass coverage. 

 

He from what I recall was at his best on the first level chasing down runs-short passes in the flat.  As a pass rusher, he's feisty but doesn't have much of an arsenal of moves.

I just looked up his stats, they had him play slot much more the previous season compared to last season.   

 

I can see him killing the combine.  You are betting on his athleticism and good coaching to bring out his best.  High ceiling player IMO.    Intriguing.  I haven't dived in to him recently because i am doubting he's on this teams's radar if he goes in the first but maybe I am wrong on that. 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Chump Bailey]

Top Ten ILB’s

 

1. Drew Sanders, Arkansas
2. Noah Sewell, Oregon
3. Henry To’o To’o, Alabama
4. Jack Campbell, Iowa
5. Owen Pappoe, Auburn
6. Daiyan Henley, Washington State
7. Edefuan Ulofoshio, Washington
8. SirVocea Dennis, Pitt
9. Isaiah Moore, NC State
10. Dee Winters, TCU

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

44 minutes ago, Chump Bailey said:

Top Ten ILB’s

 

1. Drew Sanders, Arkansas
2. Noah Sewell, Oregon
3. Henry To’o To’o, Alabama
4. Jack Campbell, Iowa
5. Owen Pappoe, Auburn
6. Daiyan Henley, Washington State
7. Edefuan Ulofoshio, Washington
8. SirVocea Dennis, Pitt
9. Isaiah Moore, NC State
10. Dee Winters, TCU

 

Hypothetical. We trade back from #16, Sanders is one of the BPA at our pick...do we double dip on LB as the top pick twice in three years? Seems a bit much.

[Wyvern]

I asked about LB'ers, because in 2022, Washington did nothing to build quality depth at "Linebacker" (inside, "middle", or outside) except to bring in a 'diminished' Bostic, when there was no depth.  I doubt Bostic or Mayo are the answer in 2023, to a question Washington didn't answer in 2022.

 

Right now, Washington has one 'NFL-worthy'  starting LB on the roster.  They may sign Holcomb, but after that there's no depth.

 

If Rivera ignores the need for quality depth at LB (almost as bad as the need for quality players for the O-line) be prepared for another mediocre season, as the Washington " D" get dinked-&-dunked to death ...especially at the end of the long season where at least one of the two starting LB'ers might be questionable or out.

 

[KDawg]

17 hours ago, Going Commando said:

Getting a strong Grady Jarrett vibe from Calijah Kancey, but he looks really small too.  Even smaller than Jarret.  Supposedly he played at only 280 pounds.  Very compact build, and in modern IDL play: smaller linemen who can run and win with quickness/motor, have great play range and the ability to play a ton of snaps > the Vince Wilforks of the aughts.

 

But still, he is really small for the position.  Jonathan Allen looks small against some match ups and he's three inches taller and 20 pounds heavier.

 

What are you guys thinking for his draft stock?  I'm thinking early day three.

Kancey is an edge. I think day 1/day 2