Wentz Traded to Washington for 2 3rd Rounders per Bleacher Report

[Califan007 The Constipated]

8 hours ago, Riggo#44 said:

Yeah this is like those statements that "so-and-so makes other players better." How do you qualify that kind of statement? Based on what?

 

Heinicke wasn't very good--his decision making was bad, the number of times he slid short of the sticks--when a few more steps would gain a 1st, and still been able to slide. There was a touchdown against GB that was nullified because he dove to short of the goal line and was ruled down--again where he could have just run it in:

 

"Makes players better" is usually said about a QB when players go to another team and are mediocre at best, while their replacements on their old team seem to be doing just fine with that same QB.

 

And saying no moment/game/whatever (lol) seemed too big for Heinicke doesn't mean I thought that because he played well. It's more about composure, not seeming flustered, getting the very real sense that he was in charge and not just another player on offense...I felt that immediately when they brought him into the Panthers game in 2020 in the 4th quarter and not only did he outperform Haskins (hardly difficult to do lol), but he immediately was directing the players even while on the move, energizing the offense-he threw like 2-3 TD passes even though only one counted (one sure TD was dropped before he hit McKissic in the end zone). Haskins never really gave me that same feeling even in those games where he played well. Keenum did more than Smith...I don't remember thinking one way or another about Kyle Allen lol.

 

 

[Conn]

Idk, I don’t really dig that narrative about Heinicke. Seems like an illusion bc he’s a good story that came out of nowhere. But just bc you don’t look like you’re gonna panic and **** your pants when you make awful decisions or under or overthrow doesn’t mean you aren’t doing it lol. He had some clutch moments for sure, but the fun of those moments is overshadowing everything else for some. To say he looked in control and the moment was never too big kind of ignores that the parts of the offense he couldn’t handle were removed for him and he still played really poorly for long stretches of the season.
 

Yeah he really confidently led the huddle and sometimes he looked unflappable while making a ballsy play to come back—but more often it meant he looked unflappable while make a bad read or a bad throw or a poor decision. If you are not a good NFL QB then the moment is too big for you, no matter how calm cool and collected you look while you stink for long stretches between your bright spots. 

This feels like when people would give extra credit to Reed Doughty for trying really hard while he stunk, as if the good players don’t try really hard and don’t have heart and grit too. 

 

Edited April 4, 2022 by Conn

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Every snap Heineke takes on an NFL field, he’s playing with house money.  That has to play into the moments not appearing to be too big for him from a mental perspective.  

[Wildbunny]

6 hours ago, Conn said:

But just bc you don’t look like you’re gonna panic and **** your pants when you make awful decisions or under or overthrow doesn’t mean you aren’t doing it lol.

Wait what?!

 

Heinicke did overthrow some receivers?

 

Nah. I don't believe that... He cannot do that 🤣

[ntotoro]

10 hours ago, Die Hard said:

I mean, if she threw herself at me… I wouldn’t say no. She’s not unattractive but not my type.

The way she punked Harry got her killed, too.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

6 hours ago, Conn said:

Idk, I don’t really dig that narrative about Heinicke. Seems like an illusion bc he’s a good story that came out of nowhere. But just bc you don’t look like you’re gonna panic and **** your pants when you make awful decisions or under or overthrow doesn’t mean you aren’t doing it lol. He had some clutch moments for sure, but the fun of those moments is overshadowing everything else for some. To say he looked in control and the moment was never too big kind of ignores that the parts of the offense he couldn’t handle were removed for him and he still played really poorly for long stretches of the season.
 

Yeah he really confidently led the huddle and sometimes he looked unflappable while making a ballsy play to come back—but more often it meant he looked unflappable while make a bad read or a bad throw or a poor decision. If you are not a good NFL QB then the moment is too big for you, no matter how calm cool and collected you look while you stink for long stretches between your bright spots. 

This feels like when people would give extra credit to Reed Doughty for trying really hard while he stunk, as if the good players don’t try really hard and don’t have heart and grit too. 

 

 

 

 

Me: "And saying no moment/game/whatever (lol) seemed too big for Heinicke doesn't mean I thought that because he played well."

 

"Yeah he really confidently led the huddle and sometimes he looked unflappable while making a ballsy play to come back—but more often it meant he looked unflappable while make a bad read or a bad throw or a poor decision."

 

😐...Um...yeah...I just said it wasn't based on him always playing well. I also said it wasn't based on things like comeback drives. I gave examples even. I said Keenum looked more like the moment was never too big for him than Alex Smith did, even though Smith performed better. I said it wasn't the same as being "clutch" (comeback/game-winning drives). The almost-11 minute drive that closed out the Tampa game wasn't a comeback drive or a game-winning drive, but with a sustained TD drive severely needed to help secure the win that mf'er lived up to the moment in spades. He controlled that offense on that drive better than I've seen most QBs here over the last 20 years ever do. Sorry, but to me the dude definitely looked like he could handle the pressure of big games and important moments, He did not have the necessary level of talent, though, to consistently take advantage.

 

And don't forget, this was all in comparison to what I've observed of Wentz. This wasn't me saying he's better (already said their talent can't compare). It was me illustrating one of the things I don't like about Wentz. If you want to argue that Wentz is a stone-cold killer with ice in his veins on the field, be my guest...I'll silently laugh as you do lol. It's one reason Vikings fans are fed up with Cousins, regardless of his stats...they feel he can't live up to the moment often enough regardless of arm talent.

 

It's kinda weird, but it seems that for some, the only acceptable praise of Heinicke is "He was easy to root for" and "He was a fun story."

 

 

 

 

 

[FootballZombie]

2 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

It's kinda weird, but it seems that for some, the only acceptable praise of Heinicke is "He was easy to root for" and "He was a fun story."

 

I don't know about that.

 

We can all come together and agree he was great at diving toward the endzo.... Oh wait, Green Bay...

 

At least we can say the team exuded comradery under his leadership... with their fists... err...

 

Gotta love a QB who gives his guys a chance right? Even if its a chance to go to the hospital... maybe not...

 

Its nice that his name was easy to spel... well... no...

 

At least the media respected Tyler.... Dang-it!

Edited April 4, 2022 by FootballZombie

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

It's kinda weird, but it seems that for some, the only acceptable praise of Heinicke is "He was easy to root for" and "He was a fun story."

Overall, yes - because that is correct.  But sure he had some moments and some Houdini like plays that were exciting.  I’d never take that from him.  There were just so many other bad plays, particularly down the stretch that it really fades the memories of the positive plays.

 

 

[Riggo#44]

9 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

It's more about composure, not seeming flustered, getting the very real sense that he was in charge and not just another player on offense

Diving short of the end zone and the 1st down marker because someone was within 2 yards of him is ****ting your pants. 

[Conn]

2 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

 

 

Me: "And saying no moment/game/whatever (lol) seemed too big for Heinicke doesn't mean I thought that because he played well."

 

"Yeah he really confidently led the huddle and sometimes he looked unflappable while making a ballsy play to come back—but more often it meant he looked unflappable while make a bad read or a bad throw or a poor decision."

 

😐...Um...yeah...I just said it wasn't based on him always playing well. I also said it wasn't based on things like comeback drives. I gave examples even. I said Keenum looked more like the moment was never too big for him than Alex Smith did, even though Smith performed better. I said it wasn't the same as being "clutch" (comeback/game-winning drives). The almost-11 minute drive that closed out the Tampa game wasn't a comeback drive or a game-winning drive, but with a sustained TD drive severely needed to help secure the win that mf'er lived up to the moment in spades. He controlled that offense on that drive better than I've seen most QBs here over the last 20 years ever do. Sorry, but to me the dude definitely looked like he could handle the pressure of big games and important moments, He did not have the necessary level of talent, though, to consistently take advantage.

 

And don't forget, this was all in comparison to what I've observed of Wentz. This wasn't me saying he's better (already said their talent can't compare). It was me illustrating one of the things I don't like about Wentz. If you want to argue that Wentz is a stone-cold killer with ice in his veins on the field, be my guest...I'll silently laugh as you do lol. It's one reason Vikings fans are fed up with Cousins, regardless of his stats...they feel he can't live up to the moment often enough regardless of arm talent.

 

It's kinda weird, but it seems that for some, the only acceptable praise of Heinicke is "He was easy to root for" and "He was a fun story."

Okay, that’s fair, then I guess I’ll say I don’t really understand the definition of the term you’re using if it can just mean anything, but that’s not necessarily on you, it’s just an arbitrary/subjective term, which is why I called it a “narrative” really.

 

If he overall wasn’t good, and stunk between flashes including in some big moments where he didn’t come through, then I don’t really know what the term “no moment is too big for him” could even mean. I read your post three times and it just seems made up. You either come through big in the big moments with some regularity or you don’t, and not having the “talent” to take advantage of a cool head (even though plenty of his mistakes are mental, so this definition also doesn’t make sense to me) means the moment is too big for you. How could it not be if you can’t take advantage? Nobody from the outside is equipped to look at a poor play and say “ahh his physical tools failed him there but he rose to the moment!” It doesn’t make sense. You need the combination of the mental and the physical. For every moment like the Tampa game that you bring up, he had many more terrible sequences where he came up short—and many of them were also in big moments. 
 

But whatever, like I said it’s subjective. It sounds like a bunch of buzz words to give a silver lining to a feel good story that has ended, and yeah that’s kind of annoying to read over and over again when it’s irrational and other similarly below average players with moments of excitement (like a Brandon Banks for instance) aren’t afforded the same treatment and borderline reverence by some (not saying you). 

Edited April 4, 2022 by Conn

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 hour ago, Riggo#44 said:

Diving short of the end zone and the 1st down marker because someone was within 2 yards of him is ****ting your pants. 

 

"I'm about to get hit" is not the "****ting his pants" I'm referring to with Wentz, though...I hope Wentz's ****ting is pants moments are like his knee touching the ground literally a half a second too soon.

 

 

28 minutes ago, Conn said:

Okay, that’s fair, then I guess I’ll say I don’t really understand the definition of the term you’re using if it can just mean anything, but that’s not necessarily on you, it’s just an arbitrary/subjective term, which is why I called it a “narrative” really.

 

If he overall wasn’t good, and stunk between flashes including in some big moments where he didn’t come through, then I don’t really know what the term “no moment is too big for him” could even mean. I read your post three times and it just seems made up. You either come through big in the big moments with some regularity or you don’t, and not having the “talent” to take advantage of a cool head (even though plenty of his mistakes are mental, so this definition also doesn’t make sense to me) means the moment is too big for you. How could it not be if you can’t take advantage? Nobody from the outside is equipped to look at a poor play and say “ahh his physical tools failed him there but he rose to the moment!” It doesn’t make sense. You need the combination of the mental and the physical. For every moment like the Tampa game that you bring up, he had many more terrible sequences where he came up short—and many of them were also in big moments. 
 

But whatever, like I said it’s subjective. It sounds like a bunch of buzz words to give a silver lining to a feel good story that has ended, and yeah that’s kind of annoying to read over and over again when it’s irrational and other similarly below average players with moments of excitement (like a Brandon Banks for instance) aren’t afforded the same treatment and borderline reverence by some (not saying you). 

 

I guess one way to put it is, poor play due to lack of talent is different from poor play due to lack of nerves. I have literally told myself over the years "Wentz looks nervous". And then he'll have a mini-melt down lol...and I'll just think "Yep, thought so."

Edited April 4, 2022 by Califan007 The Constipated

[Riggo#44]

4 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

"I'm about to get hit" is not the "****ting his pants" I'm referring to with Wentz, though...I hope Wentz's ****ting is pants moments are like his knee touching the ground literally a half a second too soon.

Go watch the video I posted. He didn't need to dive. He did that several times last year.

 

I agree with everything @Conn astutely posted--this is one of those phrases that people throw around without any real proof or backing.

[mistertim]

26 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

Go watch the video I posted. He didn't need to dive. He did that several times last year.

 

I agree with everything @Conn astutely posted--this is one of those phrases that people throw around without any real proof or backing.

 

That was such a bizarre play. He didn't even "dive", he just sort of fell on the ground in the direction of the end zone.

 

Then did a Lambeau leap.   

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

There was a lot of exaggeration and major jumps being made by the fanbase (and even the national media after the two comebacks against NYG and ATL) pertaining to Heineke's play dating all the way back to the playoff game.

 

"No moment is too big for him", "plays like his hair is on fire", and those types of statements I can give or take, and don't get too caught up in debating - those are more opinion and less fact-based statements.  

 

The ones that I tend to take issue with were:

 

"The guys love him, they play so hard for him" - I don't even necessarily think this is wrong as much as it is embellished.  There is no doubt in my mind that the guys in that locker room respect TH for coming out of nowhere, clearly physically limited, to start a playoff game and not fold.  But after as many starting snaps as he took last season - which clearly limited what we could run on offense, the numerous hospital balls, the floaters into harms way, generally not being able to score points, etc. - I'm 100% certain that every guy in that locker room would prefer he not take another starting snap unless in an emergency.

 

"We won 7 games with him, so the next QB has to win 11, 12, 13, 14 games" - As if the 7 games we won last season is the standard of who Heineke is as a QB in this league.  As if that's the least amount of wins he's capable of being a part of.  As if the latter part of the season didn't happen.  As if the woeful Giants who begged Washington to rout them in the final game of the season, had the worst QB play I've seen in years didn't happen.  It became abundantly clear that by the time we got to Dallas on the schedule, the blueprint was out - force Heineke to throw it and this team cannot function.  So I fully expect every single team we face with Heineke as a starter, no matter what the rest of our roster looks like, to get the same gameplan for which we won't like the results.

 

"He's cerebral, reads defenses well, and makes the Oline look better than it is" - Meanwhile he's responsible for a large portion of his sacks for holding the ball too long, he's late to make reads when he needs to be early due to his lack of arm strength, and he had just as many bloopers if not more than he did Houdini highlight reel plays.

 

And the absolute worst of all time...

 

"He's shown he can throw it deep and has enough arm to play in this league, You don't need a rocket arm...."  - We debated this here for weeks and the Hive would infamously throw out the Jamarcus Russell comp about how arm strength guarantees nothing.  Which is true, but neglects the fact that there is a baseline of arm talent required to play the position, of which Heineke isn't even close to having.  We still have folks who truly believe that the NFL got it all wrong, that TH's intangibles are so off the charts, that they make up for not having the bare minimum arm talent to play the position in the NFL.  Not only did the entire NFL get it wrong, but even the XFL had it wrong, where he was a backup.

Edited April 4, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[skinny21]

36 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

That was such a bizarre play. He didn't even "dive", he just sort of fell on the ground in the direction of the end zone.

 

Then did a Lambeau leap.   

He thought he had it for sure.  Was a pretty dumb play in hindsight (I mean, as soon as it was reviewed, don’t mean just looking back at it now).

That whole game though, what a shame and a nightmare for him - he was playing really well, but the blocked kick, the blindside sack/fumble, McLaurin not latching onto the ball in the end zone, and then the “dive”.  Growing up a Packers fan, gotta think that’ll be his “one that got away”.

[FootballZombie]

12 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

 

In regards to the moment not being to big, I see that line of thinking as the ability to perform at or around, or even above one's baseline when comparing a highstakes vs a normal scenario.

 

One's talent is irrelevant in such a comparison, it just reveals the ability to either exceed your baseline play, maintain your baseline play or crash and burn in a tense situation. The lack of tools don't matter to much, because your only comparing the players play against themself, and not other QBs.

 

Some guys thrive and take it up a notch in clutch situations, other wilt. Its all a measure against ones own baseline.

 

So QB can perform poorly, but if they are consistent across all scenarios, you can absolutely have a QB that displays that "moment is not too big" aura, while still not playing well. When the ish hits the fan, they don't wilt in respect to their own baseline.

 

That's my take on how that should be analyzed.

[Warhead36]

Heinicke coming out and overthrowing every receiver to start each game was aggravating and definitely led me to believe he had some nerves.

 

Ultimately I'm not gonna kill the guy though. He was a career journeyman UDFA and XFL backup. Realistically he played as well as one could reasonably expect. There were MUCH worse QBs in the NFL last year.

[CapsSkins]

Heinicke will probably become a Head Coach in the next 10-15 years.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

6 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

Heinicke will probably become a Head Coach in the next 10-15 years.

Why?

[Riggo#44]

7 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

Heinicke will probably become a Head Coach in the next 10-15 years.

Well, we can be assured that no moment will be too big for him. The team will really play for him and he'll make everyone better.

[CapsSkins]

Just now, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Why?

 

Before he became the Covid QB, he had reached out to Scott about an opportunity to get into coaching. So he's interested and seems like one of those football lifers. And there is a Backup QB -> HC pipeline: Jason Garrett, Kliff Kingsbury, Jay Gruden, Matt Nagy, Frank Reich, Doug Pederson, Matt LaFleur, and Sean Payton were all back-up QBs. Josh McCown recently had heat in Houston. It's an established pipeline, he's apparently very smart at X's and O's, the guys seem to love him, he's interested in the gig, and these days younger guys are getting shots at the top seat.

[zCommander]

If Heinicke becomes the coach of the Commanders my concern would be if he will be able to throw out plays over 40 yards though.  

 

Edited April 4, 2022 by zCommander

[Voice_of_Reason]

Re: TH as a coach, I said this a while ago. He reminds me a bit of Kellen Moore, honestly, and a few others.  Smart guys, hard workers, couldn’t actually play, so they found a great career in coaching.  

[Califan007 The Constipated]

 

 

Moment is too big for a player: not high throws or knee down a hair too soon. More like this lol:

 

 

 

 

 

But seriously, it's body language, facial expressions, lack of energy, etc, etc...want to do a fun exercise? Google "Wentz dejected" and look at the image results.

 

Then do "Heinicke dejected" and compare the images....then for ****s and giggles, search "Kirk Cousins dejected" lol...you'll notice an obvious difference in the search results between the three.

 

Maybe Wentz just has RDF (Resting Dejected Face) and can't help how he looks after he ****s up lol. And maybe Heinicke suffers from RPOF (Resting Pissed-Off Face) and just ends up looking like he's angry at himself when he ****s up and gets pulled from the game. I dunno.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Califan007 The Constipated

[Califan007 The Constipated]

 

 

I mean, seriously lol....Resting Dejected Face, ladies and gentlepersons...

 

 

 

 

"It's the face that says 'I hate my life'..."