Russian Invasion of Ukraine

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by visionary

[The Sisko]

On 4/6/2022 at 9:07 AM, tshile said:

@gbear

im very disappointed in how our government has responded. 
 

incredibly disappointed in Biden. We’re a day late and a dollar short on everything.

I'm not. While I wish we'd do more than we have, what has been done is far from inconsequential. However, if you're dissappointed now, wait until Tя☭mp is running things again. This is why one of the things I hope Biden is doing is Tя☭mp proofing the aid. So for example, I hope there are agreements with NATO partners to transfer/stockpile enough supplies in European countries to cover a decade of war so that the aid won't be contingent on arm twisting about Hunter Biden's alleged corruption or simply the whims of a narcissistic toddler.

 

As for your contentions about lesser importance of cash, you're totally wrong on that count. Ukraine's economy has to have taken a major hit from this war. They do a lot of manufacturing and obviously farming. A lot of the former has been destroyed and the latter disrupted. Without the cash that would have been earned from all the business activity that has been disrupted by the war, their economy could be in major trouble sooner rather than later. After all, wars don't just pay for themselves and the rest of the country still needs to eat, support their families, etc.

 

On 4/6/2022 at 10:32 AM, tshile said:

Maybe all the dead people and mass graves. The thing we knew would happen.

It's arguable that many, me included weren't expecting this kind of barbarity. The Russian and Ukrainian people have a long history and before this, thought of themselves as fellow Slavic brothers, so I think there was an expectation of somewhat better behavior. The Ukrainians themselves didn't seem to really believe Putin would actually invade, let alone commit war crimes. As for the Russians' well known history in Syria, Chechnya, etc., I think many thought he'd never do such things to actual Europeans. Aside from the expectation of adherence to the double standard for the lower value of Muslim/brownish lives vs. those of blond haired, blue eyed, Xtian Ukrainians, I'd imagine many reckoned that the threat of greater global outrage at not adhering to this double standard would stay his hand in doing the worst. Obviously that was mistaken thinking but not at all unreasonable or at the very least, unfounded. So no, I don't think the vast majority of people knew this would happen.

Edited April 7, 2022 by The Sisko

[tshile]

7 minutes ago, The Sisko said:

It's arguable that many, me included weren't expecting this kind of barbarity

Then you haven’t paid attention to how Russia wages war. 
 

 

[The Sisko]

14 minutes ago, tshile said:

Then you haven’t paid attention to how Russia wages war. 

And you clearly didn’t read the rest of that paragraph. We all know what they’ve done, but there were reasons to believe they would not do the same kinds of things in this case. 

Edited April 7, 2022 by The Sisko

[Peregrine]

1 hour ago, Larry said:

Discussion:  Assuming the daughter mentioned above is a US citizen. 
 

Should the US federal government have the ability to simply impose economic sanctions on a US citizen, based simply on who she's related to?  

Absolutely.  I dont think anyone is going to raise an objection to the daughter of a butcher like Lavrov being sanctioned, considered her relationship with him.  US Citizenship is not just a series of rights, but a responsibility, and that she has failed at.  His family doesnt get to reap the rewards while he kills hundreds of thousands, same as with any of Putin's higher ups.

[tshile]

25 minutes ago, The Sisko said:

And you clearly didn’t read the rest of that paragraph. We all know what they’ve done, but there were reasons to believe they would not do the same kinds of things in this case. 

There was reason to believe ukraine wouldn’t put up a fight and this would be over very quickly. 
 

but no. There was no reason to believe that if ukraine put up a fight, Russia wouldn’t do the thing they do every time they wind up waging actual war against someone. 
 

the first week we saw pictures of mobile crematoriums and everyone knew/said this was for covering up their war crimes. 

[Larry]

39 minutes ago, The Sisko said:

And you clearly didn’t read the rest of that paragraph. We all know what they’ve done, but there were reasons to believe they would not do the same kinds of things in this case. 

They might not have. If the stupid peasants had had the decency to get steamrolled in a few days. 
 

But then again, that's a "what if?". 

[tshile]

The idea that think of each other as Slavic brothers when the consensus from putin and what we see of the Russian people that ukraine isn’t a legitimate country, and aren’t legitimate people, is kind of laughable. 
 

but hey maybe they brought in the crematoriums to clean up their trash because they didn’t want to liter 

[FrFan]

2 hours ago, Larry said:

Discussion:  Assuming the daughter mentioned above is a US citizen. 
 

Should the US federal government have the ability to simply impose economic sanctions on a US citizen, based simply on who she's related to?  

It seems that she's not a US citizen according to this report

"Now Ekaterina Sergeyevna Lavrova isa citizen of Russia and lives permanently in Moscow. Despite the opportunity to work and develop abroad, she gave preference to the motherland and decided to work here"

 

 

[DogofWar1]

 

Significant.

[Wildbunny]

Russia was excluded from Human Rights at UN.

Good thing.

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DogofWar1]

I wonder if Russia will try and blame most of the war crimes on Wagner and possibly Kadyrov forces.  Both had some involvement in northern Ukraine and are easy to shift blame to.

 

Wagner could just reform under a new name.

 

Kadyrov is a loose cannon and he's started criticizing the government for their narrowed aims, so if there's any sort of resolution that isn't maximalist he might mouth off and they might throw him under the bus and find a new warlord for Chechnya.

[FrFan]

5 minutes ago, DogofWar1 said:

I wonder if Russia will try and blame most of the war crimes on Wagner and possibly Kadyrov forces.  Both had some involvement in northern Ukraine and are easy to shift blame to.

 

Wagner could just reform under a new name.

 

Kadyrov is a loose cannon and he's started criticizing the government for their narrowed aims, so if there's any sort of resolution that isn't maximalist he might mouth off and they might throw him under the bus and find a new warlord for Chechnya.

 

[FrFan]

 

[China]

4 hours ago, FrFan said:

 

 

 

[China]

Pink Floyd Releasing New Song “Hey, Hey Rise Up!” to Support Ukraine

 

The single, featuring vocals from Andriy Khlyvnyuk of Ukrainian band Boombox, is billed as the first original music from Pink Floyd since 1994
 

Tonight, at midnight Eastern, Pink Floyd will release the new song “Hey, Hey Rise Up!” The song features Andriy Khlyvnyuk (of Ukrainian band Boombox). Specifically, the new track has Khlyvnyuk’s vocals from an Instagram post that found him singing the patriotic Ukranian song “Oh, the Red Viburnum in the Meadow” in Kyiv’s Sofiyskaya Square earlier this year. Find the lyrics and single artwork for “Hey, Hey Rise Up!” below.

 

Pink Floyd recorded “Hey, Hey Rise Up!” on Wednesday, March 30, according to a press release. A music video, directed by Mat Whitecross, was also made that day. The lineup on the track includes David Gilmour and Nick Mason with bassist Guy Pratt and keyboardist Nitin Sawhney.

 

“Hey, Hey Rise Up!” is billed as the first original music from the band since 1994’s The Division Bell. (The band released The Endless River in 2014 but the album was based mostly on material from the Division Bell sessions.) Proceeds from the single will go to the Ukraine Humanitarian Fund.

 

Click on the link for the full story

[China]

Ukrainian military says Russia likely to renew attack on Kyiv if it takes Donbas

 

Russian forces that unsuccessfully tried to take Kyiv were so confident they would win they brought along outfits to hold a parade in the capital, a Ukrainian military official said Thursday. But they wound up dumping their parade attire when they were forced to retreat, according to Oleksandr Gruzevich, deputy chief of staff of Ukraine’s ground forces. At a briefing early Thursday, Gruzevich said Russian troops had left behind formal military attire in the Kyiv region. “If any of you have been in the liberated cities—Irpen, Bucha, Ivankov, Makarov… you saw how much equipment the enemy left, how much of it was destroyed and how much of it was stupidly abandoned. Along with that we are finding parade uniforms that they left, meaning the enemy planned to enter Kyiv in two days and then march through,” Gruzevich told reporters. “For today we can say that those plans were disrupted and disrupted by the heroic efforts of Ukrainian armed forces and other defense units of Kyiv.” He went on to warn, however, that the capital city still isn’t in the clear, as “it is likely the enemy has not given up the goal of a second attack on Kyiv—there is such a threat.”

 

 

[DCSaints_fan]

2 hours ago, FrFan said:

It seems that she's not a US citizen according to this report

 

 

I think this is correct because Lavrov was serving an official diplomatic capacity.   So his daughter did not get automatic birthright citizenship despite being born in the US (which is generally the case)

https://www.americansabroad.org/frequently-asked-questions-about-us-citizenship/

[visionary]

 

[DogofWar1]

Also means it'll limit reinforcements coming in.

[Larry]

Yeah. Part of me is saying that given the Ukrainian resistance, and their being resupplied, then can the Russians really tell what's a non-combatant?  
 

But it's a really small part of me. 

[visionary]

 

[visionary]

Supposedly Russia threatened countries not to abstain. Quite a few did anyway.   Of particular interest are the yes votes of Turkey, Israel, and Serbia.

[RansomthePasserby]

17 minutes ago, visionary said:

Supposedly Russia threatened countries not to abstain. Quite a few did anyway.   Of particular interest are the yes votes of Turkey, Israel, and Serbia.

The irony if threatening others to keep you on a Human Rights council is not lost.