Russian Invasion of Ukraine

[Larry]

I know it's a stupid, probably suicidal, idea. But the part of me that used to enjoy watching Captain Kirk do something completely insane, which always worked, keeps having an idea. 
 

I'm thinking that a good chunk of Russia's military, and probably the most skilled part, are busy in Ukraine right now. 
 

And I'm imagining the US and NATO assembling troops on Russia's border, and preparing to invade Russia. 
 

Maybe Biden making comments about sending "peacekeepers" in, to "defend" "separatist regions" that don't approve of invasions. 

[LD0506]

[tshile]

@EmirOfShmo

not even surprised by that yahoo article. 
 

but it brings up a thought … I try to be open minded and cynical and skeptical. I have had situations where a long time friend of trusted family member was in a conflict with other someone and I find myself defaulting to trusting my friend/family member, but always looking for flags that I’ve been tricked or lied to. 
 

and I carry the same mentality with our country. The winners of wars get to write the history. So I’ve always been skeptical of the “we’re awesome and infallible and always the good guys and hero’s, and we always kick ass, and everyone else is losers/bad guys/evil/incompetent”

 

and for all the criticism of someone like Russia (their blind loyalty is faulty, they’re drunks, they’re overly aggressive which causes issues with the competence ability and motives, overly and ruthlessly racist/xenophobic/etc, just crazy utter corruption throughout, suck at engineering/maintenance/etc) and tried to square that with their actual military night over the years - I mean it was really Russia that was the main force in finally putting an end to Germany, but that sure as **** isn’t what we teach in our schools. 
 

and I’ve always found it difficult to square all that, especially when my military friends start telling me how inept and had the Russian military is every time potential conflict with Russia comes up. 
 

But I read an article like that and it’s like - yup, this basically lines up with everything else I’ve been told. 
 

the fact that Russia had to conscript random men to use *at the start* of a war being waged against a neighbor for which, the decision to go to war was made a while ago, and they’re the aggressor so they got to set the timeline and get the element of surprise as well as the advantage of making the fist move… you couldn’t use forces that weren’t plucked off the streets? People that are professional, life long military men with extensive training?

 

i mean wow…

 

that’s not even a first world military move. It’s so nuts to me it doesn’t even sound believable - yet there’s ample evidence for it and it aligns with the general opinion of the Russian military.

 

just nuts… 

Edited February 25, 2022 by tshile

[Chump Bailey]

It's staggering to me how much of a crap show the world and country are anymore. 

[purbeast]

Completely unnecessary.

 

https://i.imgur.com/9VyvcHy

 

You know how I know this guy has bigger balls than me?

 

 

[LD0506]

“Of each particular thing, ask: 'What is it in itself, in its own construction?' ” -Marcus Aurelius.

 

Russia suffers from national PTSD, acts out from all the horse**** inflicted on it and gets blamed for it all. Not an excuse for their horse****, they've ginned up plenty over the years, but in the last thousand years every time anybody got 4 mean dudes together with spears they marched into Russia. Just start ticking off the invaders, Mongols, Vikings, Poles, Magyars, Swedes, Turks, Chinese.... and haven't even gotten to Napoleon or Hitler. There are so many elements intertwined in their history, their historical terem insularity and the religious schism rising from the Byzantine Empire, the geographical isolation of natural barriers and climate, the whole " clip the rubes" mentality Europe has had towards them since before Michael Romanov, the huddled together "us vs them" mentality bred into small handfuls of people struggling in a vast wilderness, all of it has conspired to bring us to today. 

 

While I don't give a rat's ass about Pootin', I am sympathetic to the history of the Russian people, but seemingly few others are because we don't know or teach any of that history (sound familiar?) 

 

But this is different, or at the very least holds the seeds of a different outcome. Russia as the aggressor against the Ukrainians is really hard to spin as the evil domineering West. Live streamed accounts on the ground will take their toll on Russian public opinion. For everyone clamoring for nuking the Rooskies, that's the one sure way to make it worse, take the bait and confront them militarily, MAKE it an evil domineering West narrative. I support Ukraine and believe we ought to support them but boots on the ground exacerbates the situation. Provide medical and social support for refugees and for surrounding countries that will bear the brunt of it. 

 

But arguably the best option we should consider is trying to understand why this is happening, and you cannot do that without understanding the historical context of Russia. As bitter a pill as this is, it is again an opportunity to change the course of history. If nothing else the attention focused on this could be a chance for some broader understanding of what is happening.

 

No vet suffering from PTSD every got better by being screamed at and threatened.

[CousinsCowgirl84]

6 minutes ago, purbeast said:

Completely unnecessary.

 

https://i.imgur.com/9VyvcHy

 

You know how I know this guy has bigger balls than me?

 

 

Russia has laws against Christianity, so I don’t know what this **** is talking about.

 

https://arriveministries.org/living-as-a-persecuted-christian-in-russia/

Edited February 25, 2022 by CousinsCowgirl84

[RansomthePasserby]

30 minutes ago, tshile said:

But I read an article like that and it’s like - yup, this basically lines up with everything else I’ve been told. 
 

the fact that Russia had to conscript random men to use *at the start* of a war being waged against a neighbor for which, the decision to go to war was made a while ago, and they’re the aggressor so they got to set the timeline and get the element of surprise as well as the advantage of making the fist move… you couldn’t use forces that weren’t plucked off the streets? People that are professional, life long military men with extensive training?

 

i mean wow…

 

that’s not even a first world military move. It’s so nuts to me it doesn’t even sound believable - yet there’s ample evidence for it and it aligns with the general opinion of the Russian military.

 

just nuts… 

I don’t get it though, seems like a huge blunder. Sending half motivated conscripts to fight against people defending their homes is a recipe for disaster. And the longer this drags on the less motivated to keep fighting the Russian military and population will be. What’s Putin’s end game?

[purbeast]

10 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Russia has laws against Christianity, so I don’t know what this **** is talking about.

 

https://arriveministries.org/living-as-a-persecuted-christian-in-russia/

I think you quoted the wrong person lol.

[TradeTheBeal!]

5 minutes ago, RansomthePasserby said:

I don’t get it though, seems like a huge blunder. Sending half motivated conscripts to fight against people defending their homes is a recipe for disaster. And the longer this drags on the less motivated to keep fighting the Russian military and population will be. What’s Putin’s end game?

Tilt the scales for the upcoming midterms.  Seriously, I think that’s the whole thing.  Putin/Russian oligarchs have invested a ****-ton of time and money, 15-20 years and untold billions, taking over the GOP and giving rise to Trumpism and they need this thing to happen NOW…or it ain’t gonna happen.   That’s why it all seems so strange…Putin is like a drunken guy at the poker table raising before the flop, trying to get everyone to fold.  

[LD0506]

14 minutes ago, TradeTheBeal! said:

Tilt the scales for the upcoming midterms.  Seriously, I think that’s the whole thing.  Putin/Russian oligarchs have invested a ****-ton of time and money, 15-20 years and untold billions, taking over the GOP and giving rise to Trumpism and they need this thing to happen NOW…or it ain’t gonna happen.   That’s why it all seems so strange…Putin is like a drunken guy at the poker table raising before the flop, trying to get everyone to fold.  

 

Understand this is not something done from a position of strength, you're right

[tshile]

25 minutes ago, RansomthePasserby said:

I don’t get it though, seems like a huge blunder. Sending half motivated conscripts to fight against people defending their homes is a recipe for disaster. And the longer this drags on the less motivated to keep fighting the Russian military and population will be. What’s Putin’s end game?

i mean, russias history (as I know it) is riddled with stupid decision making, with obnoxious arrogance, and in terms of action they seem to favor brute force over clever and throughout means. 
 

they get credit for creating this giant misinformation campaign against our society but I’ve always maintained they got lucky and fell into stupid success with it, over the idea it was a well thought out and executed plan. 
 

it just seems like they’re less a first world military and more a taliban-esque military that just so happens to have greater access to weapons and such. 
 

I mean… seeing troops give up and run away on the opening day of war, because they don’t want to kill Ukrainian… do you see that sort of thing happening with our military? China’s? The ineptitude required to create that situation… 

 

they think they can just push everyone around. And on some level it works sometimes. But other times it backfires, like this. 
 

the shame is it sounds doubtful that this issue alone is enough to thwart their takeover. It sounds like they’ll have control if Kyiv by the end of the day tomorrow, if not the end of the day today. 
 

It almost sounds like simply stationing troops on the Ukraine border with Russia and Belarus would have been enough to stop this whole thing. It sounds like Russia is completely incapable of confronting us. And it sounds like Putin us at least somewhat aware of that. But it was a huge risk and I understand why we wouldn’t do it. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

7 hours ago, Wildbunny said:

Let's be cautious with the large term. There's been a few thousands people demonstrating against WAR, but it's not that much for a country of 144M. More than half of them are pro-Putin. Let's not mistaken here.

 

Regarding @China post about misinformation, I saw a vid yesterday of AAA fighting an airplane that was an A-10 Thunderbolt which was kinda weird.

Yeah, I find it strange that people are trying to claim that there's a lot of dissent right now in Russia. I mean, there could be. But with every conflict or war in every country, some citizens agree and some don't. It's funny to me how a few clips on Twitter and we assume that other countries have a consensus rather than millions of people with multiple different viewpoints and opinions. 

[Wildbunny]

44 minutes ago, LD0506 said:

While I don't give a rat's ass about Pootin', I am sympathetic to the history of the Russian people, but seemingly few others are because we don't know or teach any of that history (sound familiar?) 

 

But this is different, or at the very least holds the seeds of a different outcome. Russia as the aggressor against the Ukrainians is really hard to spin as the evil domineering West. Live streamed accounts on the ground will take their toll on Russian public opinion.

That's where I am right now. I can understand many of the reasons that they want Ukraine back for many historical reasons. But I'm not a fan of the move Putin made at all.

 

I wish Russia could detach itself from dictatorships leaders, because there's more links between Europe and Russia than everyone's wanting to admit. So I'm having a hard time seeing them as evil, though what they did clearly doesn't make them look like the good guys. So as much as I hate Putin for this, I also feel sad for those Russian people that will have to live through it.

 

12 minutes ago, tshile said:

i mean, russias history (as I know it) is riddled with stupid decision making, with obnoxious arrogance, and in terms of action they seem to favor brute force over clever and throughout means. 

To be fair, I could make the exact same assumption just replacing Russia with USA.

[tshile]

Btw I posted the other day we should be skeptical of photos and videos on twitter

 

for whatever reason, we see lots of misinformation about things using videos of other conflicts (or training; or weird random stuff like “here’s a jet flying”) or of military equipment from other countries…

 

I don’t understand who’s doing or why. We saw a lot of it in Syria too. 

[Wildbunny]

5 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

Yeah, I find it strange that people are trying to claim that there's a lot of dissent right now in Russia. I mean, there could be. But with every conflict or war in every country, some citizens agree and some don't. It's funny to me how a few clips on Twitter and we assume that other countries have a consensus rather than millions of people with multiple different viewpoints and opinions. 

Considering Russia right now, I would believe that nearly half of those that agrees with the war do it over fear from what could happen to them.

Seeing some going into the streets to protest against it requires lots of courage. So I'm not blaming those that just cover for fear.

[CousinsCowgirl84]

39 minutes ago, purbeast said:

I think you quoted the wrong person lol.

Oops…

[tshile]

1 minute ago, Wildbunny said:

To be fair, I could make the exact same assumption just replacing Russia with USA.

I don’t think so. I don’t think US actions compare over the last 40 years

 

that’s not to suggest we’re perfect or don’t make mistakes, or don’t get arrogant. I just don’t think we compare at all. 
 

but maybe that’s my patriotism blinding me. 

[LD0506]

8 minutes ago, tshile said:

i mean, russias history (as I know it) is riddled with stupid decision making, with obnoxious arrogance, and in terms of action they seem to favor brute force over clever and throughout means. 
they get credit for creating this giant misinformation campaign against our society but I’ve always maintained they got lucky and fell into stupid success with it, over the idea it was a well thought out and executed plan. 
it just seems like they’re less a first world military and more a taliban-esque military that just so happens to have greater access to weapons and such. 
I mean… seeing troops give up and run away on the opening day of war, because they don’t want to kill Ukrainian… do you see that sort of thing happening with our military? China’s? The ineptitude required to create that situation… 

they think they can just push everyone around. And on some level it works sometimes. But other times it backfires, like this. 
the shame is it sounds doubtful that this issue alone is enough to thwart their takeover. It sounds like they’ll have control if Kyiv by the end of the day tomorrow, if not the end of the day today. 
It almost sounds like simply stationing troops on the Ukraine border with Russia and Belarus would have been enough to stop this whole thing. It sounds like Russia is completely incapable of confronting us. And it sounds like Putin us at least somewhat aware of that. But it was a huge risk and I understand why we wouldn’t do it. 

 

I'd respectfully disagree with a lot of this.

Russia's propensity to throw cannon fodder at an enemy until they run out of bullets was often forced onto them by a lack of production and supply infrastructure. They always had way more troops than the logistical ability to support them. If all you have is a hammer every problem is a nail, yanno?

 

We underestimate the innate Russian skills in chess, thought problems, poetry, etc., because there is no infrastructure required to ponder. Again, they tend this way because their options are so limited, and just like in so many cases, they reflexively blame others for their own shortcomings but don't underestimate their ability to be clever. Necessity is the mother of invention and she's still a mother to deal with.

 

Throwing in conscripts from other districts with no info? Maybe because every one of the local troops has relatives in Ukraine and might flinch? The Chinese did the same thing at Tiananmen Square.

 

Their military is vastly different from ours by necessity and as a result of their own isolation. They often play weak hands brilliantly but they know a weak hand when they see it, even if they don't tell us.

 

Kyiv (boy am I having trouble here, there ain't no Chicken Kyiv in my cookbooks) has changed hands and masters many times but is an iconic location to the people of the Russias. Seeing her attacked will set off ripples. 

[CousinsCowgirl84]

Russia says it is ready to talk about peace according to CNBC… but then I looked on RT and they said the were open to holding peace talks in Belarus. Eh…

[kfrankie]

41 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Russia has laws against Christianity, so I don’t know what this **** is talking about.

 

https://arriveministries.org/living-as-a-persecuted-christian-in-russia/

 

Yet Putin is holding himself out to be a strong member of the Russian Orthodox Church.  He has also taken some indirect shots at past leaders (Lenin) for allowing Ukraine to become a country in the first place. And he's never suggested that communism is a form of government that should be employed in Russia.

 

It's like he's looking back in history and avoiding the mistakes of the old communist regime (i.e. elimination of religion, refusal to engage in commerce w/ capitalist nations, communism in general), while being careful not to criticize the authoritarian aspects to the USSR (i.e. annexing or controlling border states, authoritarian government, use of force to accomplish his ends).

 

He wants to be the czar, not whatever the hell Stalin called himself.  But he does want to be Stalin. 

[LD0506]

6 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

Considering Russia right now, I would believe that nearly half of those that agrees with the war do it over fear from what could happen to them.

Seeing some going into the streets to protest against it requires lots of courage. So I'm not blaming those that just cover for fear.

 

Dissent in Russia has always been very lateral, spreading horizontally because for a thousand years those above their station never told the truth. I get that.

 

But in the last twenty years millions of people throughout Russia have been exposed to the rest of the world in a way they were never allowed to be before. That has an effect, you cannot be blamed for not knowing what you don't know, but in the same way you can't unknow it once you do.

 

<sigh>

 

The people of Russia deserve better lives. So many of them struggle the same way their great grandparents had to in much the same conditions. 

 

But in the end only Russia can fix Russia.

All we can do is be sincerely willing to help them once they do.

 

But troops rollin' across the border sure does push some buttons

[Wildbunny]

15 minutes ago, tshile said:

I don’t think so. I don’t think US actions compare over the last 40 years

 

that’s not to suggest we’re perfect or don’t make mistakes, or don’t get arrogant. I just don’t think we compare at all. 
 

but maybe that’s my patriotism blinding me. 

Don't feel like debating this right now as I can easily understand why you, and probably lots of others feels like this about your country.

But seeing this from the outside could certainly looks like this.

The best example is the war in Irak with Bush. You lost a huge part of credibility on the international front due to this. Sadly.

[Fan since a Fetus]

11 hours ago, The Almighty Buzz said:

What do you think all those Musk satellites are really for?

I thought they sprayed a wonderful anal gland fragrance upon us that got the ladies all hot and wild. I have been looking forward to that day.

[kfrankie]

17 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

Yeah, I find it strange that people are trying to claim that there's a lot of dissent right now in Russia. I mean, there could be. But with every conflict or war in every country, some citizens agree and some don't. It's funny to me how a few clips on Twitter and we assume that other countries have a consensus rather than millions of people with multiple different viewpoints and opinions. 

 

Assuming that 1000 people have been arrested for public protest (i.e. anyone that is seen protesting) I think that evidences a fairly substantial "dissent" among the population. Those people have to realize that when they get placed in the paddy-wagon, they're not going to the local jail to wait for their roommate the post the 100 ruble bail, and to ultimately get slapped with a 150 ruble fine and 10 hours of community service, all the while basking in the glory of being "brave enough" to get arrested. 

 

No..... their asses are going to disappear.  And not because those 1000 represent some sort of real threat, but because their associates, friends, family, etc. that chose not to publicly display their dissent are also watching.

 

In any event, with the amount of propaganda coming from Putin's regime, its going to be a long haul to convince Russia's citizens that its time for a change.