The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randal 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariota and Fromm battle for QB2

[757SeanTaylor21]

The rams went to 2 supebowls in the last 4 years the debate is over. Won one and lost one.

[Voice_of_Reason]

22 hours ago, 757SeanTaylor21 said:

The rams went to 2 supebowls in the last 4 years the debate is over. Won one and lost one.

And in the one they lost, Belichick basically made McVay his **** and out coached him by a mile.  It was Bill’s 9,674 playoff game and 196th SB and he just foot stomped boy wonder. 

Also, the Saints should have been in that SB if not for the literal worst non-call in the history of the NFL. 

 

[757SeanTaylor21]

24 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

And in the one they lost, Belichick basically made McVay his **** and out coached him by a mile.  It was Bill’s 9,674 playoff game and 196th SB and he just foot stomped boy wonder. 

Also, the Saints should have been in that SB if not for the literal worst non-call in the history of the NFL. 

 

That doesn't change the fact that they went. So n 4 years 2 appearances in sb? Yeah you take that and run with it. When's last time we can say that we done that?

[Warhead36]

On 4/1/2023 at 9:29 AM, philibusters said:

 

The context I was talking about what was trading 3 first rounders and Jared Goff for Matthew Stafford, which was made January 30, 2021.   My point is I think it was a bad trade.   It worked out well, but I think at the time they made it it was a bad trade.   I think when they made it they thought they would have a window in 2021, 2022, 2023, and maybe even 2024.  I don't think they realized how short the window would end up being (just 2021).  Luckily for them, they won it in 2021, but they did get lucky.  They got a Tampa team depleted by injuries and missed the Chiefs and Bills altogether.  They were a good team in 2021, I'd have them as probably the 5th or 6th best team out of 32 teams that year, but they gave up an awful lot for a one year gamble.   I have to think if they realized they were only going to have a one year window when they made that trade, they would not have made it.

 

Edit: Two first rounders, not three

If Stafford were healthy that window would still be open. You can't have predicted his arm would basically fall off after a little more than a year. 

 

Losing Beckham in the Super Bowl hurt them as well. That was the x factor weapon that they needed.

[Voice_of_Reason]

53 minutes ago, 757SeanTaylor21 said:

That doesn't change the fact that they went. So n 4 years 2 appearances in sb? Yeah you take that and run with it. When's last time we can say that we done that?

I wasn’t arguing that.  Just simple LT pointing out historical context.  

13 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

If Stafford were healthy that window would still be open. You can't have predicted his arm would basically fall off after a little more than a year. 

 

Losing Beckham in the Super Bowl hurt them as well. That was the x factor weapon that they needed.

It’s true.  But Bill took Sean out to the woodshed in that game, and I’m not sure Beckham was going to single handedly changes that. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Over Ron Rivera’s first three years in Washington, the team’s expenditures on quarterbacks were where you’d expect a team to be. In 2020, Alex Smith and Dwayne Haskins ate up $28.9 million in cap space. In ’21, Ryan Fitzpatrick and Taylor Heinicke accounted for a more modest $12.1 million, and then the number for Carson Wentz and Heinicke last year jumped back up to $31.7 million.

 

Coming out of 2022, Rivera, GM Martin Mayhew and personnel chief Marty Hurney asked an interesting question of themselves: Was all that money allocated effectively?

 

“There’s a lesson people learned,” Rivera says. “Look at what Philadelphia was able to do for a couple years. That’s one of the things we looked at. Look at Philadelphia. Look at Cincinnati. I mean, these are teams that are doing well with these quarterbacks, and they were on their rookie contracts. Look at what that means for them. They were able to field good teams, they got themselves in the playoffs and they were able to keep good players.”

What if, the logic followed, Washington gave a young guy it really liked, in Sam Howell, a legitimate shot, with legitimate runway to win and keep the job, and backstopped him with an affordable veteran? 

 

...The Commanders are about to find out; the Buccaneers and Falcons will, too. All three are doing it with intention, and that intention varies a bit from place to place. The foundation of it, though, for all three teams, is as Rivera laid it out: saving at quarterback to fix other things.

 

For Washington, it’s created the flexibility not just to take care of Daron Payne, but also sign center Nick Gates (three years, $16.5 million) and tackle Andrew Wylie (three years, $24 million) to shore up the line. It’s had a similar effect in Atlanta, with the Falcons paying to lock up Chris Lindstrom and Kaleb McGary on offense, and acquire Jessie Bates III (four years, $60 million), Kaden Elliss (three years, $21.5 million) and David Onyemata (three years, $35 million) for the defense. Meanwhile, Tampa will pay off a boatload of cap debt from the Tom Brady era, with plans to eat around $80 million in dead money to set up a much cleaner 2024.

 

And in the place of a Carr or Garoppolo or—had he gotten to the market—Daniel Jones, the Commanders paired Jacoby Brissett with Howell, the Falcons matched Heinicke with Desmond Ridder and the Bucs signed Baker Mayfield to compete with Kyle Trask. The three vets are 30, 27 and 30, and have combined for 142 NFL starts. And the teams saw a little something in the three young players—who’ll cost their teams a combined $3.7 million on the 2023 salary cap—last year that left them wanting to see more.

 

• For the Commanders, it was first what defensive players would tell their coaches when Howell was running the scout team, plus how the receivers would say he was throwing them open and using leverage against the defense. Then, when Wentz went on IR, and Howell became the backup, the staff got to see what he’d learned and how he’d self-correct. And then, finally, in the season finale against the Cowboys, all that those coaches had seen and heard came together to give way to the thought that Howell deserved a real shot. (There was also the fact that the Commanders had a second-/third-round grade on him in 2022, and that a couple of Washington scouts, before Howell dipped a little in his final college season, put 6.4 and 6.7 preseason grades—starter grades—on him.)

 

 

Edited April 3, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[HigSkin]

I liked him coming out but now don't really know how I'd feel about this one.  The scuttle is coming from the PFT assumptions on destinations.

 

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2023/04/04/bill-belichick-has-shopped-mac-jones-this-offseason/

 

The full list of potential destinations isn’t known. The teams mentioned as potential destinations were the Raiders, Texans, Buccaneers, and Commanders.

[mistertim]

Not sure why we'd trade for Mac Jones. Howell has more talent and has been basically named the de-facto QB1 going into the season (though he'll have to play well to keep it), and we now have Brissett as at least a quality backup or a potentially decent starter if need be. I don't see where Mac Jones would fit in as he's really only a so-so QB IMO.

[zCommander]

If Bill (with 6 SB rings) is shopping Mac Jones that is a huge RED flag. Stay away from Jones at all cost. Plus as mistertim pointed out Howell is better anyway. 

[philibusters]

1 hour ago, zCommander said:

If Bill (with 6 SB rings) is shopping Mac Jones that is a huge RED flag. Stay away from Jones at all cost. Plus as mistertim pointed out Howell is better anyway. 

 

Don't know if Howell is better than Mac Jones better he has got a better arm and more run ability than Jones.  Mac Jones can do somethings reasonably well by NFL standards like throw with anticipation.   I am interested to see what Jones does this season with a better offensive coordinator.   Scott Turner was not great for us, but the Patriots last year with Matt Patricia calling the plays didn't do their QB's any favors.  Patricia had not coached offense since 2004 (he was the Patriots DC from 2012 to 2017) and he sucked (by NFL standards) as the OC.  Even getting average play calling and game planning from Bill O'Brien will help whoever the Patriots QB is some.

[samy316]

8 hours ago, zCommander said:

If Bill (with 6 SB rings) is shopping Mac Jones that is a huge RED flag. Stay away from Jones at all cost. Plus as mistertim pointed out Howell is better anyway. 

We don’t know that yet.  Howell only has one start to his name.  Mac Jones is at least a functional QB, and a game manager at best.  I wouldn’t make that move, but we’ll probably have to explore all QB options after their coming season.  We don’t have a stable QB situation at the moment.

Edited April 8, 2023 by samy316

[FootballZombie]

We already have Jacoby who will start if Howell aint up to snuff over the offseason, so I don't need to shell out assets for anyone else to join in a competition role. If your bringing in a QB its either to fulfill the role of QB1 or QB3. There is not much use in getting a QB1C unless injuries occur.

 

That would mean you only make the move for a guy like Mac Jones if you plan for him to be your starting QB.

 

He is a known commodity that you can plan around, juxtaposed the unknown factor of a QB with no XP like Howell. If your goal is to do what you can to ensure you have a job beyond next year, then yeah I get the logic behind the move. You want solid QB play and the likelyhood of Mac providing that is much higher than Howell at this given point in time.

 

Personally as a long term investment, I don't like the idea of getting Mac very much. It seems exceedingly unlikely that Mac has the ability to break thru to a much higher level of QB than he is now and is destined to hang around average.

[kingdaddy]

Howell > Mac Jones

[mistertim]

8 hours ago, philibusters said:

 

Don't know if Howell is better than Mac Jones better he has got a better arm and more run ability than Jones.  Mac Jones can do somethings reasonably well by NFL standards like throw with anticipation.   I am interested to see what Jones does this season with a better offensive coordinator.   Scott Turner was not great for us, but the Patriots last year with Matt Patricia calling the plays didn't do their QB's any favors.  Patricia had not coached offense since 2004 (he was the Patriots DC from 2012 to 2017) and he sucked (by NFL standards) as the OC.  Even getting average play calling and game planning from Bill O'Brien will help whoever the Patriots QB is some

 

46 minutes ago, samy316 said:

We don’t know that yet.  Howell only has one start to his name.  Mac Jones is at least a functional QB, and a game manager at best.  I wouldn’t make that move, but we’ll probably have to explore all QB options after their coming season.  We don’t have a stable QB situation at the moment.

 

Yeah what I said is that Howell is more talented, which is pretty undeniably true. He's very athletic, a really good runner, and has a cannon. Mac Jones can't really say any of that.

 

Now obviously that's all just fluff if Howell doesn't also have the ability to read NFL defenses, make decisions quickly, throw with anticipation, etc. We'll see how that unfolds this season hopefully.

 

So at this point Mac Jones is absolutely a more proven NFL player, and if you got him you'd probably be assured a serviceable starter. But I don't think he really has the talent to ever be truly elite. IMO Howell does.

 

Plus, as @zCommandernoted, if the Pats are ready to jettison a 1st round QB that quickly (and probably for pretty cheap) then it's a major red flag.

[wit33]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

 

Yeah what I said is that Howell is more talented, which is pretty undeniably true. He's very athletic, a really good runner, and has a cannon. Mac Jones can't really say any of that.

 

Now obviously that's all just fluff if Howell doesn't also have the ability to read NFL defenses, make decisions quickly, throw with anticipation, etc. We'll see how that unfolds this season hopefully.

 

So at this point Mac Jones is absolutely a more proven NFL player, and if you got him you'd probably be assured a serviceable starter. But I don't think he really has the talent to ever be truly elite. IMO Howell does.

 

Plus, as @zCommandernoted, if the Pats are ready to jettison a 1st round QB that quickly (and probably for pretty cheap) then it's a major red flag.

More likely Bill identifying he’s competent with low chance of becoming special and knowing there’s zero chance they’re going exercise his 5th year option.
 

Attempt to trade him while he has value as a competent starter and contractual value for next two seasons. 

[zCommander]

17 hours ago, philibusters said:

 

Don't know if Howell is better than Mac Jones better he has got a better arm and more run ability than Jones.  Mac Jones can do somethings reasonably well by NFL standards like throw with anticipation.   I am interested to see what Jones does this season with a better offensive coordinator.   Scott Turner was not great for us, but the Patriots last year with Matt Patricia calling the plays didn't do their QB's any favors.  Patricia had not coached offense since 2004 (he was the Patriots DC from 2012 to 2017) and he sucked (by NFL standards) as the OC.  Even getting average play calling and game planning from Bill O'Brien will help whoever the Patriots QB is some.

 

The vision he had on that TD run was just simply magical. A breath of fresh air. We will also have a new OC and I like to see what EB can do with Howell. Were there throws he made in that last game without any anticipation? I will need to go back and watch that game again. But even if I don't I am sure that will not be an issue this year since he will be practicing with the 1st teamers from the beginning and not at the end. That is going to be huge for him. Don't want Mac Jones even though it is moot point anyway. 

 

10 hours ago, samy316 said:

We don’t know that yet.  Howell only has one start to his name.  Mac Jones is at least a functional QB, and a game manager at best.  I wouldn’t make that move, but we’ll probably have to explore all QB options after their coming season.  We don’t have a stable QB situation at the moment.

 

Howell's 1st start:

 

WK	OPP	RESULT	COMP	ATT	YDS	AVG	TD	INT	SCK	SCKY	RATE	ATT	YDS	AVG	TD	FUM	LOST
18	Cowboys	W 26 - 6	11	19	169	8.9	1	1	3	11	83	5	35	7	1

 

Mac Jones's 1st start:

 

1

@Dolphins

L 7 - 20

21

30

213

7.1

1

1

2

20

87.2

2

0

0

0

1

1

 

 

 

We had more running plays than the Pats did though. But Howell's numbers are still not bad for his 1st start.  If Howell does falter, which I don't think will happen, then we go get our new QB in the draft of 24 that will have a few talented QBs. PFF ranked Mac Jones 26th, btw. 

 

Right now, I am content with the potential Howell has to offer. I like to see it playout first before even think about we should get this QB or that QB. This year Howell either makes it or he doesn't. 

 

 

Edited April 8, 2023 by zCommander

[kingdaddy]

Seeing what the Eagles have in Hurts and what we have in Howell it'll be interesting to see how they coach Howell as compared to how Philly has coached up Hurts. Specifically, will our coaches see Howell as a dynamic runner like Hurts is or will they try and temper that with a pass first mentality as opposed to taking off and running. I know there's a balance but Hurts was more of a runner in his first year as a starter than in his second. That's probably because of him getting comfortable with all of the offense and the throws the offense calls for, etc...

I believe Howell is as good of a prospect as Hurts was at the same points in their careers only he has a bigger arm and should be more accurate. Will we call running plays for Howell like the Eagles do for Hurts? I'd have to think we will at times if for no other reason than to give the defense something more to think about. 

Give Howell a TE and he has weapons that should make the offense very, very good with EB running the show. These are exciting times considering the potential of our young playmakers teamed with EB.

[skinsfan66]

On 3/31/2023 at 9:02 AM, redskinss said:

We've had a chance to be a playoff team every year with horrible quarterback play.

That comment falls into the no **** category.

 

If they get any sort of good quarterback play they have a chance to be a contender in the nfc but nobody has the balls to say that so they say whats already painfully obvious based off past results.

 

 

Possible would have have made the playoffs this year, if Oline had not fell apart at worst times against Giants both games at goal line. Oline has been just as horrible if not more.  They made a couple moves and need to make a couple more. If we do not protect Howell, Briss, it will just be the same ol same ol.  Blame the QB give the OL and their coach a pass.

[Rex Tomb]

Is there a new o line coach in place?

[wit33]

9 hours ago, zCommander said:

 

The vision he had on that TD run was just simply magical. A breath of fresh air. We will also have a new OC and I like to see what EB can do with Howell. Were there throws he made in that last game without any anticipation? I will need to go back and watch that game again. But even if I don't I am sure that will not be an issue this year since he will be practicing with the 1st teamers from the beginning and not at the end. That is going to be huge for him. Don't want Mac Jones even though it is moot point anyway. 

The run ability is what has me most bullish and intrigued about his potential to join the LARGE pool of competent starters at half a percent of the teams overall cap. 
 

Not at all saying he’s going to rush for 5-800 yards, more so his back yard abilities will hopefully provide a known pathway for him to perform and leave competency imprints consistently game to game. This while we learn more about him as a passer and overall QB. 
 

You put him at slot WR and he’s catching a few option routes on Danny Johnson. Dare I say, a little Jordan Reed in him from a wiggle standpoint. 
 

If he starts all 17 I’d like to see at or above 30 first down runs and around 7 rushing TDs. These stat lines will mask other areas he might struggle with. 

 

[Est.1974]

Do we really think new owners will want to roll with Sam Howell. No disrespect intended either. Personally like the player. But a splash move would come, right?

[samy316]

53 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

Do we really think new owners will want to roll with Sam Howell. No disrespect intended either. Personally like the player. But a splash move would come, right?

 

It's certainly possible.  I don't think the new ownership will make sweeping changes off the bat regarding the roster, but they very well could examine the QB position, and make suggestions to what they would want to do going forward.  We have the worst QB situation of any team in the league at the moment, so it definitely needs to be addressed at some point.  I personally think that the coaching staff gets this one season to see if they have what it takes to survive after this upcoming season.  That may mean rolling with Howell/Brissett for the season.  I could also see us surprising some folks by drafting a QB in Rd 1 or 2 of the draft.  If Hendon Hooker is there at #16, we would have to consider getting him.  Or if Will Levis is there for the taking, would we move up a few spots to get him?  Everyone seems to be sure that we're either going OT/CB in Rd 1, but I think QB is still in play.

[Warhead36]

I think the new ownership is going to use this as an evaluation year of the entire football operation top to bottom before making any sort of change.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I think the new ownership is going to use this as an evaluation year of the entire football operation top to bottom before making any sort of change.

Agreed, I expect no big splashes.

 

Perhaps in 2024 they go that route, but the timing of this sale lends itself to sticking the prior plan for the 2023 season.

[Professor_Nutter_Butter]

1 hour ago, samy316 said:

 

It's certainly possible.  I don't think the new ownership will make sweeping changes off the bat regarding the roster, but they very well could examine the QB position, and make suggestions to what they would want to do going forward.  We have the worst QB situation of any team in the league at the moment, so it definitely needs to be addressed at some point.  I personally think that the coaching staff gets this one season to see if they have what it takes to survive after this upcoming season.  That may mean rolling with Howell/Brissett for the season.  I could also see us surprising some folks by drafting a QB in Rd 1 or 2 of the draft.  If Hendon Hooker is there at #16, we would have to consider getting him.  Or if Will Levis is there for the taking, would we move up a few spots to get him?  Everyone seems to be sure that we're either going OT/CB in Rd 1, but I think QB is still in play.

You stay the hell away from Will Levis. Dude is doodoo's doodoo.