The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Rufus T Firefly]

Just now, mistertim said:

 

Ah, gotcha. My bad, I thought you were trying to maybe make a point that only wins matter when talking about QBs. Which I agree is a silly metric to measure a QB by, especially when talking about a small sample of games.

I mean, I might have been expecting a bit too much to think that point was clear just by posting the meme. 

[mistertim]

1 minute ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

I mean, I might have been expecting a bit too much to think that point was clear just by posting the meme. 

 

Eh, I probably should have picked up on it. Been a bit of a crazy day.

[Skinsinparadise]

4 minutes ago, No Nonsense said:

I find it weird that he’d wave his no trade to Chicago, but not Washington? 

 

  I don't see this as an apples to apples situation.  Are the Bears going to have hearings in Congress along with a slew of PR issues centered on sexual harassment?  Teaming that up with Watson with his own set of problems involving an accusation of sexual harassment on steroids.

[Redskins 2021]

Part of the deal with Wilson is the wife. I think him and his wife would like to go to Las Vegas or New York.  I just can't see Seattle not running it back one more time.

[CapsSkins]

2 minutes ago, Redskins 2021 said:

Part of the deal with Wilson is the wife. I think him and his wife would like to go to Las Vegas or New York.  I just can't see Seattle not running it back one more time.

 

DC is close to NY (just a few hours away via Acela, even shorter via chartered flight) and plus Washington could be a draw to any of these athletes who fancy themselves activists or astute political thinkers lol (could see both Wilson and Rodgers as those kinds of guys tbh).

[Redskins 2021]

Just now, CapsSkins said:

 

DC is close to NY (just a few hours away via Acela, even shorter via chartered flight) and plus Washington could be a draw to any of these athletes who fancy themselves activists or astute political thinkers lol (could see both Wilson and Rodgers as those kinds of guys tbh).

I could see that with Rodgers.

Maybe Wilson could be convinced but I think he would be harder to get.

[Zim489]

18 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

 

It's essentially like a repeat of the Alex Smith trade. We'd get slightly better but still not have any realistic shot at anything besides a possibly one and done playoff appearance.

 

 I think he'd heve less turnovers, and we'd probably win 1 or 2 more games with him, but my issue is that IMO that slight increase isn't worth a 1st or 2nd round pick and a big new contract.

And god damn I am so tired of striving to be mediocre 

[London Kev]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

10 second hypothetical:  

 

You evaluate all of the rookie QBs and your evaluation determines they have a ceiling somewhere around Jimmy G., except that ceiling is probably 2-3 years away.

 

You are Ron Rivera entering year 3 of a rebuild.

 

Do you reach for a QB who you believe can only be an "ok" to "Good" starting QB?

 

Or do you go ahead and get your "good" QB, and then draft another one next year?

 

If you sign Jimmy, you extend him 3 years for a total of 4 years.  The last year you can probably get out of.  So you have your stop-gap QB, who has shown to play at least decent when available.  

 

Then you can draft a guy you want to take over next year and red-shirt him for a year or two.  It is a pressure release valve.

 

I like that better than reaching for a QB.  

 

However, I really want them to be all-in on Rodgers/Wilson.  Specifically Rodgers.  And bring Adams with him.  Which I've posted about just a few times today.  

 

Following your hypothetical it would seem like Jimmy G would be the best option from Ron's viewpoint. The problem is that your first premise kind of defines the conclusion.

 

There may well be one or more rookies who are viewed as having a higher ceiling than JG, and that they could attain that ceiling quicker than 2-3 years. Also, I see nothing wrong with drafting a QB this year, and if it doesn't work out, draft another one next year.

[Rufus T Firefly]

6 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

And god damn I am so tired of striving to be mediocre 

The only thing worse than Snyder's regime being two decades plus of "striving to be mediocre" is how often they've failed at even that.

[Skinsinparadise]

29 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

He's definitely better than Heinicke, but you're right that I don't think the difference is as big as others believe. Jimmy G is in a spot where he has more weapons and can lean on a dominant defense and he still put up close to the same numbers Heinicke did this season.

 

Again, this has nothing to do with me saying Heinicke is any good...he's not (as your graphic shows). But I don't think we'll get a whole lot more production out of Jimmy G because he's basically like Heinicke with a better arm. He's a pure game manager who you can't rely on to put the team on his back if need be.

 

It's essentially like a repeat of the Alex Smith trade. We'd get slightly better but still not have any realistic shot at anything besides a possibly one and done playoff appearance.

 

 I think he'd heve less turnovers, and we'd probably win 1 or 2 more games with him, but my issue is that IMO that slight increase isn't worth a 1st or 2nd round pick and a big new contract.

 

I am sort of neutral on Jimmy G.  I don't love the idea, don't hate it.  

 

I agree it would remind me of the Alex Smith trade in that they are 15-17 type of QBs.  Jimmy G though not as conservative as Alex.  Jimmy G was top 5 in YPA this year, Alex was near the bottom typically in YPA.  Heinicke near the bottom, too.

 

I do think this roster ie better than the one we had when Alex came here.  So if they can do this where they don't give up a first and then shoot again in the draft soon, as Keim implied, I am ok with this albiet not excited. 

 

My favorite stat from PFF is adjusted completion percentage, here's their rankings.  I don't really have to hunt hard on stats apples to apples.  If I went with PFF's overall passing grade, Jimmy G at 72.8, Heinicke at 58.9

 

IMO Jimmy G is at least clearly a peg better than Heinicke.   Jimmy G will get some attention on the trade market.  Heinicke would be greeted by a yawn. 

 

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[mistertim]

14 minutes ago, Redskins 2021 said:

Part of the deal with Wilson is the wife. I think him and his wife would like to go to Las Vegas or New York.  I just can't see Seattle not running it back one more time.

 

10 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

DC is close to NY (just a few hours away via Acela, even shorter via chartered flight) and plus Washington could be a draw to any of these athletes who fancy themselves activists or astute political thinkers lol (could see both Wilson and Rodgers as those kinds of guys tbh).

 

I honestly wonder how much being owned by Snyder would play into a QB's willingness to come here. If I had to guess I'd say a decent amount.

 

He's widely considered the worst owner in the NFL, not just because he's incompetent, but because he's also a narcissistic asshole who seems completely incapable of realizing that there are things he doesn't know.

 

Having Ron and getting rid of Bruce and other cancers definitely helps. But I still have a feeling that Snyder directly hampers our efforts to get top talent to want to come here.

[wit33]

1 hour ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

Hello, Malik Willis. Shoot for the stars 

If your QB can’t play backyard football you’re at a huge disadvantage. I witnessed Josh Allen dominate at times in what many consider an all time game/performance, looking at his first read then just making something happen a great deal of the time.

 

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

He's definitely better than Heinicke, but you're right that I don't think the difference is as big as others believe. Jimmy G is in a spot where he has more weapons and can lean on a dominant defense and he still put up close to the same numbers Heinicke did this season.

 

Again, this has nothing to do with me saying Heinicke is any good...he's not (as your graphic shows). But I don't think we'll get a whole lot more production out of Jimmy G because he's basically like Heinicke with a better arm. He's a pure game manager who you can't rely on to put the team on his back if need be.

 

It's essentially like a repeat of the Alex Smith trade. We'd get slightly better but still not have any realistic shot at anything besides a possibly one and done playoff appearance.

 

 I think he'd heve less turnovers, and we'd probably win 1 or 2 more games with him, but my issue is that IMO that slight increase isn't worth a 1st or 2nd round pick and a big new contract.

The Shanny system does not produce big time QB numbers. Jimmy has lost some of his moxie, in my opinion, due to the system. I’m not a huge supporter or anything, but he provides much more from an ability standpoint. Sure, he could’ve went 8-9 this season, but he’s also able to lead/be part of a 13-3 team as well. 

57 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

 

I honestly wonder how much being owned by Snyder would play into a QB's willingness to come here. If I had to guess I'd say a decent amount.

 

He's widely considered the worst owner in the NFL, not just because he's incompetent, but because he's also a narcissistic asshole who seems completely incapable of realizing that there are things he doesn't know.

 

Having Ron and getting rid of Bruce and other cancers definitely helps. But I still have a feeling that Snyder directly hampers our efforts to get top talent to want to come here.

Players love Dan. This fact is often overlooked.

Edited January 25, 2022 by wit33

[Warhead36]

Yeah the players generally love Dan, ESPECIALLY the stars. Even Trent Williams who went scorched earth on the organization had nothing but good things to say about Danny Boy.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

12 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Players love Dan. This fact is often overlooked.

Was there a time when it felt like the players loved Dan?  Sure, the Gibbs days - Portis, Moss, etc.  But I'm curious where you've come up with this idea that even in the last 10 years, players love Dan.  Where's the evidence for that?

8 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Yeah the players generally love Dan, ESPECIALLY the stars. Even Trent Williams who went scorched earth on the organization had nothing but good things to say about Danny Boy.

Where's the evidence players love him? Outside of Trent indicating his issue was with Bruce and the doctors, not Dan.

[mistertim]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I am sort of neutral on Jimmy G.  I don't love the idea, don't hate it.  

 

I agree it would remind me of the Alex Smith trade in that they are 15-17 type of QBs.  Jimmy G though not as conservative as Alex.  Jimmy G was top 5 in YPA this year, Alex was near the bottom typically in YPA.

 

I do think this roster ie better than the one we had when Alex came here.  So if they can do this where they don't give up a first and then shoot again in the draft soon, as Keim implied, I am ok with this albiet not excited. 

 

My favorite stat from PFF is adjusted completion percentage, here's their rankings.  I don't really have to hunt hard on stats apples to apples.  If I went with PFF's overall passing grade, Jimmy G at 72.8, Heinicke at 58.9

 

IMO Jimmy G is at least clearly peg better than Heinicke.   Jimmy G will get some attention on the trade market.  Heinicke would be greeted by a yawn. 

 

 

I agree that he's definitely a peg better than Heinicke, I just question the cost and what it means. If we knew for a fact that Ron would either also draft a QB now or would still be willing to draft one in the 1st within the next year or so then I'd be ok with giving up a 2nd for Jimmy G (but never a 1st, that's ridiculous).

 

However my main concern there is not so much that we'd have to give up a 2nd round pick, but that we'd almost surely have to give him a new contract as part of the trade.

 

I'd assume he'd ask for at least a 3 year deal, but probably more like 5. So let's take something in the middle and say 4 years. If we give him a pretty good amount of money on a 4 year contract I think that makes it much more unlikely that we'll be drafting a QB any time soon unless we really want to have a $20-25 million backup sitting on the bench for a couple years.

 

Yeah, we did it with Alex Smith, but that was a very different situation given his injury.

 

So then we'd basically be stuck in QB purgatory again for another 4 years. Basically going from a pretty bad team to a ho-hum team. Then after 3-4 years we have to start the QB search over again, only now we're more likely to have lost some of our key pieces and who knows if Ron would even be around at that point.

 

IMO that's a slow death. I'd rather just be killed nice and quick.

 

3 minutes ago, wit33 said:

The Shanny system does not produce big time QB numbers. Jimmy has lost some of moxie, in my opinion, due to the system. I’m not a huge supporter or anything, but he provides much more from an ability standpoint. Sure, he could’ve went 8-9 this season, but he’s also able to lead/be part of a 13-3 team as well. 

 

I don't think this is necessarily true. I think his system produces what the QB is capable of, because he molds his system to fit whatever QB he has and what that QB's strengths and weaknesses are. I think a QB with more talent would produce more because Shanny would then change up his system to suit that talent level. IMO otherwise they wouldn't have spent 3 1st round picks on a hugely talented but raw guy like Lance.

[wit33]

1 minute ago, mistertim said:

 

I agree that he's definitely a peg better than Heinicke, I just question the cost and what it means. If we knew for a fact that Ron would either also draft a QB now or would still be willing to draft one in the 1st within the next year or so then I'd be ok with giving up a 2nd for Jimmy G (but never a 1st, that's ridiculous).

 

However my main concern there is not so much that we'd have to give up a 2nd round pick, but that we'd almost surely have to give him a new contract as part of the trade.

 

I'd assume he'd ask for at least a 3 year deal, but probably more like 5. So let's take something in the middle and say 4 years. If we give him a pretty good amount of money on a 4 year contract I think that makes it much more unlikely that we'll be drafting a QB any time soon unless we really want to have a $20-25 million backup sitting on the bench for a couple years.

 

Yeah, we did it with Alex Smith, but that was a very different situation given his injury.

 

So then we'd basically be stuck in QB purgatory again for another 4 years. Basically going from a pretty bad team to a ho-hum team. Then after 3-4 years we have to start the QB search over again, only now we're more likely to have lost some of our key pieces and who knows if Ron would even be around at that point.

 

IMO that's a slow death. I'd rather just be killed nice and quick.

 

 

I don't think this is necessarily true. I think his system produces what the QB is capable of, because he molds his system to fit whatever QB he has and what that QB's strengths and weaknesses are. I think a QB with more talent would produce more because Shanny would then change up his system to suit that talent level. IMO otherwise they wouldn't have spent 3 1st round picks on a hugely talented but raw guy like Lance.

Disagree, he’s a run first coach. Yes, those still exist. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

I agree that he's definitely a peg better than Heinicke,

He’s not a peg better than Heineke.  
 

One can play and start in the NFL.

 

One can’t.

 

TH is a peg on the peg board of NFL starters.

 

The other is lying on the table 3 in the room 3 doors down from the peg board. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Voice_of_Reason

[mistertim]

5 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Disagree, he’s a run first coach. Yes, those still exist. 

 

Then there's pretty much zero reason for him to give up 3 1st round picks for a supremely gifted but raw QB like Lance.

 

IMO he's a run first coach now because that's the talent his roster has now. If he had an Allen or Mahomes he'd be a pass heavy coach because he'd have a guy who could do that.

 

I assume that's what they hope Lance's ceiling is and exactly why they took him. They realize that the way they're doing things isn't a viable long term strategy and know they need a guy who can sling it if they want to be perennial contenders and not just an on again off again team.

Edited January 24, 2022 by mistertim

[wit33]

 

1 minute ago, mistertim said:

 

Then there's pretty much zero reason for him to give up 3 1st round picks for a supremely gifted but raw QB like Lance.

 

IMO he's a run first coach now because that's the talent his roster has now. If he had an Allen or Mahomes he'd be a pass heavy coach because he'd have a guy who could do that.

 

I assume that's what they hope Lance's ceiling is and exactly why they took him. They realize that the way they're doing things isn't a viable long term strategy and know they need a guy who can sling it if they want to be perennial contenders and not just an on again off again team.

My guess the large part of the intrigue with Lance is his dual threat ability and how his mobility can be used in the play action game. Why pick an extremely raw passer if slinging it around is the goal. Wouldn’t they have gone with Mac Jones? 
 

What he did with RG3 was legendary, I’m sure that had a great deal to do with the aggressive move up. 
 

Philosophically Kyle is a run first type coach much like his dad, in my view.  

[Bifflog]

Are there any rules on offering team equity?

 

[Redskins 2021]

I think the key to us this offseason is Radiers and Broncos. Broncos will be making a move have the most to trade pick wise and have the packers offensive coordinator as finalist for head coaching job.

 Radiers are an unknown because no one knows what there team is doing. Both teams will probably be in on the big 3 QB.

 The last thing was David Carr older brother of Derick was saying he thought that Radiers will be trying to get Russell Wilson and Derek would go to Washington earlier in the season. I think it was on NFL .com

Edited January 25, 2022 by Redskins 2021

[mistertim]

22 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

My guess the large part of the intrigue with Lance is his dual threat ability and how his mobility can be used in the play action game. Why pick an extremely raw passer if slinging it around is the goal. Wouldn’t they have gone with Mac Jones? 
 

What he did with RG3 was legendary, I’m sure that had a great deal to do with the aggressive move up. 
 

Philosophically Kyle is a run first type coach much like his dad, in my view.  

 

That seems like a lot to give up for a QB to bolster your running game and then mostly be a game manager with his arm. My guess as to why they'd pick a raw passer is because of his level of overall talent, especially arm talent. He's a big guy who can move well and has a cannon, much like the top QBs nowadays. That's the way the league is undeniably headed, and that's definitely not Mac Jones. Mac is the guy I'd expect them to take if they wanted to stick with the same system and have a game manager QB.

 

And they knew they had Jimmy G for a couple more years so they didn't have to throw Lance to the wolves. 

 

I don't think Kyle is nearly as old school as his pops. I think he adapts his system to the talent he has; that's exactly what he did with RG3. I'm guessing if RG3 had actually morphed into a top notch NFL passer, the system would have evolved with that.

[Zim489]

 

Pretty much exactly how I feel

[Redwards]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I am sort of neutral on Jimmy G.  I don't love the idea, don't hate it.  

 

I agree it would remind me of the Alex Smith trade in that they are 15-17 type of QBs.  Jimmy G though not as conservative as Alex.  Jimmy G was top 5 in YPA this year, Alex was near the bottom typically in YPA.  Heinicke near the bottom, too.

 

I do think this roster ie better than the one we had when Alex came here.  So if they can do this where they don't give up a first and then shoot again in the draft soon, as Keim implied, I am ok with this albiet not excited. 

 

My favorite stat from PFF is adjusted completion percentage, here's their rankings.  I don't really have to hunt hard on stats apples to apples.  If I went with PFF's overall passing grade, Jimmy G at 72.8, Heinicke at 58.9

 

IMO Jimmy G is at least clearly a peg better than Heinicke.   Jimmy G will get some attention on the trade market.  Heinicke would be greeted by a yawn. 

 

 

If they end up with JG, I'm cool with it ONLY if it's purely as a leg-up placeholder until a QB comes in a draft in the next few years that they love and are willing to sell-out for to move up.   However, if they view JG as THE guy to build around as the franchise QB, I guarantee you that'll sign Ron's coaching death certificate.  He'll be done in just a few years.  

 

What I don't want is for the FO to force a pick at QB this year because they're feeling the pressure that they forced upon themselves.  That's the other road to ruin.  If that guy just isn't there in this draft, the do the right thing and wait until next year.  But because of said pressure, I'm not sure I can trust the pick (if made) this year.  It'll be a situation where I'm not 100% sold on the pick until he shows he's a bonafide franchise guy.

[Skinsinparadise]